yamatokh

I just got this car not long ago, and i have find that when ever the back comes out, it's not a gradual one but rather a sudden snap.

As I am purchasing new rims and tires as well as the full suspension set. Can anyone tell me how i should setup the suspension so that the back is more predictable? Harder in the back? softer? Higher dumper rate? Camber adjusting?

What company's shock and spring that you guys has the best experience with regarding this manner? I want to use this car as a daily driver, so i don't want racing stiff, but stiffer than Stock is ok.

Also, i have 15" rims now, if i go with 17" and low profile tires, will the snaping behavier get better or worse? If it will get worse, what are you guys suggestion?

I am totally new to these aftermarket stuff, so please help me out.

Thanks in advance.

t_mak@mail.plymouth.edu

Use your right foot

13B

My suggerstion would be to take a skid control course, read a book on car control or just practise in a parking lot. The skill you will need to develop is called counter-steering and it makes driving these cars all the fun in the world. Also, maybe your tires are worn out if the back end is snapping out real bad. Hope this helps.

t_mak@mail.plymouth.edu

Try autoxing on ice on bald tires. It teaches you how to fix the problem

go_speed_go

What situations cause your problem?

Gene

iTrader: (1)

Don't forget to get the toe control bushings that disable the #$@#@&@ mazda DTSSDTSTTSDDSAAASS system. (rear toe-in changes depending on lateral load, causing unpredictable changes in the middle of a drift or real hard corner)

tims

removing the toe "rear steer" bushings could help, and also have the alignment checked with a good shop that knows what they are doing. a little toe out on the rear and the car will act this way. a street performance suspension kit should help solve this problem, but oversteer can be induced with early application of power so maybe try altering your driving style.

BhamBill

The DTSS (passive rear steer) makes these cars unpredictable until you learn how to use it. When you go hard into a corner it feels loose, but if if you lean on that you'll find it will bite and the car will rotate because of the rear wheel steer. This can be helpful in autocross because of the quick turns required. It's disconcerting at first, but if you experiment with it, it really works.

If the car is just snapping around on you, it could be a toe out condition as above, it could be worn parts (bushings,etc), or it could just be your inexperience driving. These cars are set up with significant oversteer so it shouldn't just snap around unpredictably.

Xentrix

I love the DTSS, it is weird until you are used to it. From my experiences autocrossing ect... the DTSS helps you take the curve, the only problem I have ever felt is after the exit of the curve when you are going back to the straight. The rear goes back to it's normal state but it does so very sharply. the rear sorta slams back into normal. At first it was a little weird but I got used to it.

Evil Aviator

Agreed. None of my 2Gens have ever snapped around on me. I have had the rear end come around on me a couple of times while autocrossing, but I had plenty of fair warning (I just thought that I could hold it on the edge a bit longer, but I was wrong ). I agree that your problem is worn parts, inexperience driving, or both. Other than my TII, my cars don't have worn parts, so I always know what my problem is.


OK, you said that the car is a daily driver and that you don't like really stiff suspension, so that's a start. How are you going to drive the car (ie city driving, rural driving, long trips, dirt roads, autocross, rally, IT or EP racing, drag racing, etc.), how do you weight looks vs. performance, and how much $ do you want to spend?

t_mak@mail.plymouth.edu

He could have experience power oversteer maybe? Gun it too soon?

Anyway fi u want a soft ride, DON'T GET KYB AGX SHOCKS. My back is killing me

yamatokh

Thanks everyone for response.

I think i need a few more days with this car in order to say what the problem is. It just that when i was driving in the rain the other day, the back comes around on me so many times, though i didn't spin out, but it was scary enough. I guess i have a heavier foot.....

Regarding the DTSS, yes, i feel it very clearly in the rain where you feel your back is turning out to help the turning angle. Does this has anything to do with the back end coming out all of the sudden? Any way to resolve this? where can you get the "toe elimenator"? Is it just a bushing that you replace?


My driving will be like this: 75% City/Freeway driving, 15% Mountain driving and 10% Race track. I don't like to have a stiff suspension that will kill my back and make interior all rattling like crazy. Is there any adjustable suspenson (either spring or shock) that is soft enough as the stock at "soft" for City, while can be adjust to the "hard" for racing condition for mountain road and track? My budget is about 500-1000 for a set of both shock and spring.

Thanks guys, you guys are great help

go_speed_go

I ran Eibach Pros & Tokico 5 was adjustables.
For me, this allowed a softer-than-stock to a firmer-than-stock range of adjustment.

BhamBill

I have the Eibach Pro's too. The variable rate makes freeway driving comfortable and they stiffen the harder you work them. I have AGX which I run full soft on the road and adjust for autocross. I like the combination.

FEDREX

For what you want to spend and also seeming that you would like adjustability, I would suggest Ground Control coilovers and Tokico Illumina shocks (5-way adjustable). You might also consider the KYB AGX shocks - there seem to be some people running these as well. The difference between Tokico is the rear adjustment is on top of the shock so to adjust it you need to remove the rear speaker to access. (doesn't bother me as I always keep it set on "4") The AGX are 4 position adj. front and 8 rear if I remember correctly. The rears can be adjusted by reaching under the car.
At risk of lengthening this post I've included my sig...my spring rates are right where I like them. If you have pretty smooth roads overall, this setup is very nice. If you have lots of bumps/broken pavement/potholes you might consider something like 300lb. front springs and 200lb. rear. The nice thing about GC is it's $399 and you can select whatever spring rate you want.

I, personally, would not want a progressive rate spring such as the "Pro-Kit" because from what I've read here is that they create a variable of unpredictability due to there design which makes sense to me. Get the springs that you like and use the shock settings to adjust things.

Evil Aviator

You can get the toe-steer eliminator (Part No. 0000-04-7404-KT), as well as a whole lot of other good stuff from Mazda Motorsports. They are also very helpful if you have any questions about products or setups for different types of racing. If you enter race events on a regular basis, you should apply for a sponsorship.
http://www.mazdamotorsports.com/weba...?storeId=10001

OK, I'm still not sure what you mean by "race track", but it sounds to me like you would be happiest with the Eibach progressive-rate springs and either Tokico Illumina or KYB AGX shocks like some of the other posts recommended. The KYB AGX shocks are less expensive, easily adjustable, light-duty shocks, and are fine for street and autocross use. The Tokicos are a bit more expensive and can take more abuse, and are good for street, autocross, and on-track club racing like Improved Touring. I like the linear-rate springs, myself, but I also like an extremely stiff suspension.
http://www.eibach.com/
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/kyb/kyb_agx.htm
http://www.tokicogasshocks.com/

While you are under your car swapping out all this good stuff, you should check out your suspension bushings, as they are probably toast by now. In fact, this would be a great time to install a nice urethane bushing set, although this wouldn't be within your stated budget, so you may want to save this for later. You may also want to think about getting camber plates later on, too.

Hey t_mak, those KYB AGX shocks are quite possibly the weakest adjustable shocks on the planet. You didn't try putting delrin bushings and 400lb linear-rate springs on there, did you? Seriously, if your back hurts, you should see a doctor and consider getting a different vehicle. I don't see any reason to drive a car that hurts you, especially if it could be causing you serious permanent damage. A friend of mine has a bad back, and can't drive sports cars, but he is fine in full-size trucks like the F-150.

Freeway

I probrably sound like a dumbass but what exactly is "rear stear and DTSS"?

RX-7 GT

where do koni yellows fall into between the agx's and illumina's? are they better, worse? etc

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I've had a base NA and TII. The NA had snap oversteer sometimes and the TII is very gradual. Factors- NA had high miles so bushings were shot (made DTTs affect cornering more), shocks were not so hot in the rear (wheel hop when getting on throttle and small bumps upset rear), no locking rear end (so when getting on throttle comming out of turn all power went to one tire) and I made the mistake of putting wider tires on the rear, which did make it understeer-except it loaded up the worn rear bushings even more and caused early onset rear steer affect- so I would really throw it into the corner w/ throttle because of the understeer and then it would hook up again and rear steer would come in fast so I had to correct really fast. Like they all said, new bushings if high miles, new shocks and I add get limited slip or check condition of current LSD. Low profile tires will actually make loss of grip more sudden (given tire w/ other characteristics the same); fix rest of suspension before getting wheel/tire upgrade for good results.

yamatokh

rear steer :P not stear


Ok, if KYB is the weakest adjustable shock on the planet, should i still get it? It's weak in what way? just curious.

The EiBach Pro kit runs 249 a set. Is there anywhere i can get cheaper than that (i think in FC3s.org the guy got it for 209)?

"urethane bushing set" Where can i get that? how much do they run? sounds expensive already :P

Does a Fix rate spring necessary be stiffer? how much difference between a prograssive spring and fix rate spring in turns of everyday driving?

Where can I get a Limited Slip Differencial for cheaper (i saw one in Mazdatrix for 600 )
I have a 90NA, not sure which model (it had adjustable suspension and power everything, so i guess it's a GXL), can anyone guess whether i have LSD or not? (i will check later myself, but just a quick guess...)

Sorry guys, a lot of questions, thanks

You guys are the best!!!!!

Evil Aviator

DTSS = Dynamic Tracking Suspension System. Basically, it means that Mazda put loose bushings in the rear end so that the rear wheels could "steer" a little bit when the car experienced side loads, kinda like a cheap 4-wheel steering. It's easier to look at a picture than for me to explain it. If you give send me a PM with an email address, I can send you some pages that I scanned from the 88 brochure.

Konis are better for serious racing. They are also more expensive and more difficult to install, of course. I have Koni coilovers on my 20B car with Eibach ERS springs, which is the standard Mazda Competition setup for a 2Gen.
http://www.toperformance.com.au/home.html

Absolutely!

OK, maybe "weakest" was a bad word to use. How about "softest"? The thing is, the AGX shocks are usually combined with softer springs (mostly progressive rate), so if they are too harsh for you on their softest setting, then something is wrong (either with you or your car). Like I said, AGX shocks are good for the street and autocross. I have seen posts by people who say that they use AGX shocks for track events, but everyone I know thinks that Tokicos and Konis are better for this purpose. Hopefully, an AGX racing fan will join this discussion and give you a different viewpoint on the matter.

I get all my bushings from Mazda Motorsports, but I'm sure that there are other vendors. Check with Suspension Techniques. The bushings aren't all that expensive, but the shocks and springs will already put you near your stated budget. Also note that the bushings are a pain to remove/install, so you may need to have a shop install them for you, which is more $$$.

The reason that linear-rate springs are considered stiffer is because they have only one rate. You can get springs of different rates in both types. However, the progressive rate spring will always be softer at reduced loading if it has the same max load as a given linear rate spring. Much like DTSS, some people like this, and others don't. Here is an example that I made up:
Linear Rate: no load = 400 lbs, partial load = 400 lbs, full load = 400 lbs
Progr. Rate: no load = 200 lbs, partial load = 300 lbs, full load = 400 lbs
This example isn't exactly correct because I left out a lot of other factors, but I think that you will get the main idea.

If your car has AAS, then it probably also has an LSD. Look for a metal LSD tag on the back of the diff. To tell you the truth, I think my 88 SE drove fine with the stock non-LSD rear end. Anyway, if you want an LSD, you will probably be able to find one at the salvage yard. Note that a TII LSD will NOT bolt up to your driveshaft, but any other 2Gen LSD will work fine.

BTW, aftermarket shocks will not work with the Mazda AAS, but maybe you already know this.

tims

here is a link for the bushings, only need front and rear control arm sets the other stuff won't work even though they list it in the catalog. http://www.suspension.com/mazda.htm.
As for shocks and spring setup for the street I would also recomend the Tokico shocks Illuminas if you have the budget and a set of lowered springs not preogressive. try http://www.shox.com/ for shocks and springs. Racing Beat has the toe eliminator bushings http://www.racingbeat.com/Rotary.htm
I would first make sure all suspension parts are in good condition and repair any damaged pieces before attempting any upgrade. You would hate to hit a curb with those new wheels because of a $40 worn control arm bushing. get the suspension back to good working order and have a good alignment done and then start with the upgrades.

yamatokh

Why isn't the TII LSD bolt onto a NA? Do they have different drive shaft? If so, can i also replace my drive shaft with the TII shaft? And does that bolt onto the NA transmition?

I guess what i am asking here is, from Engine to rear wheel, what components are different between TII and NA? I know that engine is different :p, suspension is different, now i know LSD is different....what else? Flywheel? Pressure plate? Drive Shaft? Rear Axel?

I try to check whether my car has LSD without jack up the car..... cant' see anything, cuase the fuel tank is in the way.....where exactly does the matel "LSD" print located? Does most of or all of the AAS suspension RX7 come with LSD?

p.s. 500-1000 are my budget for shock and springs only, so please do not worry about price when giving recommandation, thanks.

(I think i am almost done with my suspension questions :p, so please bare with me )

Thank you all for all the helpful info.

Node

iTrader: (1)

beefier tranny, beefier drive shaft, beefier rear axles, I dunno about differential.
But pretty much everything in drivetrain is diff to handle more power and have more potenital for power.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong

Evil Aviator

The TII transmission, driveshaft, halfshafts, and differential have different sized fittings than the NA does, so they will not attach to each other without major modification. The TII components are heavier and can handle more torque. Also, the driveshafts are different lenghts on the TII, MT NA, and AT NA. I think that the MT NA driveshafts were different between the Series 4 & Seires 5, but I'm not sure. If you want to use the heavier TII drivetrain in your NA, it is easiest just to buy a TII with a blown engine, and swap out everything from the transmission back.

Hehehe, yes, the clutch & flywheel are different, too. You can mix & match these to a certain degree, but I'm not going to go into that for liability reasons.
NA clutch: 225mm
TII Series 4 clutch: 240mm
TII Series 5 clutch: 235mm

In 88, only the GXL had AAS, and every 88 GXL had an LSD. I'm not sure about your year, though. The LSD tag would be on the differential fluid fill plug, which is the higher of the two bolts on the rear of the pumpkin. I can see the tag on my TII without jacking the car up, although I have to put my head under the gas tank. The LSD tag may be a bad indicator, as it could have been lost during a fluid change. You could always just put the car up on jacks, spin a tire by hand, and see it the other tire turns in the same direction.