Icemark

Okay jhammons01 you overstepped the line and have started flaming with the insulting in the posts. Knock it off, or this thread will be closed.

And Pengerufoo and Scathcart please don't get sucked into calling people names and flaming also or again, this thread will be closed.

This is the only warning guys. If any mod see's further flaming by anyone, this thread will be closed and formal warning will be sent.

SureShot

Mark,
It doesn’t bother me.
Some engineers are just compelled to keep trying to re-invent the wheel.
Down here we call that a pissin' contest.
I just look around for a wheel that works.
-Bill

jhammons01

I overstepped???? And Scathcart got sucked into something????? And when did Pengerufoo insult me?

I am would like to appeal your decision.

The way I see it I was the one that was called an idiot.....from left field and Wrongly so.

Ice, I have always respected you, please don't let a relationship skew your judgement as to what happened above. Yes, I laid it out but only in defense of being called an idiot. Which I do not appreciated especially when I know what I am talking about.

Pengerufoo could lay out 50 examples that differ from point and I would not refer to him as an idiot, rather, I would add my half of the discussion that may differ and who know....maybe somebody reading the discussion would learn something new. I only called names when provoked.

So Why not modify your earlier statement to read
maybe a freindship sways that decision?

jhammons01

And Sureshot, your curiosity has peaked alot of interest. I hope you don't think that I was flaming or insulting you........'cause I wasn't in the least. I think you idea was really thought provoking and interesting.

A far cry from

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

Wow, RETed I'm AM so sorry I am so stupid. I was really thinking there is gains here to be made here.

I agree with pengerufoo. Just ditch it and get a haltech. Some of us can't afford a haltech.

If you read Sureshots threads, he is trying to do it on a budget.

If there is a junkyard AFM that can give me a gain, I want it!

Especially if it's cost is peanuts compared to a haltech.

I thought this was a kind of "shadetree" sort of improvement and offered up my ideas on cross-sectional area not to seem "smarter than you gurus", but to acknowledge that Sureshot might have a really good idea. Especially for us budget guys.

I don't mind being lumped with tinkerers. I wasn't trying to one-up.

pengarufoo

I didnt call anyone a name, I just said jhammons was being ignorant and stuck in his own views... I don't really think thats a problem? *shrug* No offense was intended.

I just think jhammons needs to stop thinking within the context of low pressure relative to another higher pressure (vacuum), it's all the same stuff in absolute terms - and looking at this in absolute terms makes it alot easier and more consistent to discuss IMO.

He corrected me for usign the term pressure drop when describing what happens to the pressure across the flow meter. My use of the term pressure drop was not in error. The atmospheric pressure is what moves the air through the air flow meter, the void created by the engine (vacuum) is being filled by that pressure. There is pressure drop across the meter that can be measured with a Manometer. It's the same as a turbo breathing down an intercooler, the compressor is creating pressure that is higher than atmospheric (hopefully), but thats just it, it's simply more pressure - theres nothing magically different between the atmospheric pressuer and that higher pressure your turbo compressor can produce.

This is all really quite simple, jhammons is just stuck in his ways, I can accept that, but please, I must defend my view at the same time.

scathcart

If you’re going to make a vain attempt to insult me by calling me a tech, I’ve got a BASC in M.Eng from the University of British Columbia. I'm not actually a mechanic, that's simply a term coined to me by one of my friends, but nice try by playing sleuth.

Edit: You know, I typed up a huge reply to this, but then went ahead and deleted it: its really pointless arguing with the close-minded.

Yes, power will increase if you change the catback while retaining the stock cats. Dynos and timeslips have proven this, and I have witnessed this myself. Same with changing the entire exhaust while retaining the stock turbo. Same with intake porting and conular air intakes and removing the AFM while retaining the stock TB.

Until you actually gain the same real-world experience for yourself, all your textbook quotations of someone else’s work are useless, as they clearly do not agree with what happens in the real world.

The biggest joke of it is that I bet you just took someone else’s opinion that our throttle body was the biggest restriction on our cars, because its simply bullshit. If it were true, changing to a different TB would show significant power gains, which it does not.

jhammons01

Here it is another day and with Absolute Scientific proof (tested in the real world......every single day) posted and yet you find a way to discount it and call it a Textbook quotes.

Now, here is where you fall short of the Mark Ferman Detective agency Honor list. I work in labs EVERYDAY practicing what I preach. The difference between the "Shops" I go to and the ones you go to is MINE is located at JPL (NASA, that the big ol space agency here in the US) or Northrop-Grumman (those guys that launch Satillites and build lasers) or Boeing (the big silver plane maker) or California Technical Institute or USC, or UCLA or, or, or the list of Brilliant Minds adds up to over 1700 Scientific contacts that work with Flow in "the real world" everyday. So saying that I need to get practicle experience is laughable at best. So you thinking that I sit around beard scratching all day is where Mark Ferman give you an "F" and sends you back to community college.

And here is a newsflash, I never really said the throttle body was the restriction. I merely used it as an example for discussions sake. So saying that I used somebody elses opinion about the throttle body being a restriction is a BAD example of sleuthing. I DID use Restrictor plate racing as an example that most can relate to. Why does a restrictor plate make a car loose BHP........There is another one you'll never answer.

If you wnat my opinion about the largest Restriction on a 13B? The intake on the Irons. There is a 90° bend that ppl try to fix with Pineapple ports and grinding or Porting. That is the smallest ID in that whole scenario. Am I saying that if you port your TB or UIM you won't achieve any gains??? No, not in the least. I am saying that a larger AFM is not going to help when the current AFM is not the restriction you need to worry about. That stock AFM is so big that the small ID of the snorkel negates any....any gains by a larger AFM, Cone Filter or anything of the sort.

So what did I say about Dollars to Donuts? You still have nothing to back up your beliefs and debunk my beliefs other than chest pounding......You sir Owe me some Donuts.

jhammons01

I think you did a fine job, and I enjoy the discussion. And like I said, I didn't think you called me anytyhing and no offense towards you was taken at all. I see your points, I fully understand what you are saying as well.....I just want you to up the Bar just a bit for your own good.

Yes, I am stuck in my beliefs as this is the life I live..... day in and day out. RX7s are just a hobby for me.

BlaCkPlaGUE

holy ****, lets get this thread back on track and get some dyno numbers. Most interesting thread I've come across in a long time... lets not **** it up mkay?

NZConvertible

Vaccum is just the term commonly used to describe pressure that's lower that atmospheric pressure. Any high school science student should be able to tell you that. Call it a partial vacuum if you want to be completely ****, but in any discussion relating to automotive applications you're just making a fool of yourself claiming vacuum is not pressure.

BS. There is no reason why vacuum can't be measured in psi. Do you understand the difference between absolute pressure (atmospheric pressure = 14.7psi) and gauge pressure (atmospheric pressure = zero psi)? These are often written psia and psig. 10psia is 4.7psi below atmospheric pressure so it can be referred to as vacuum. Saying -4.7psig would be just as valid.

As for the other units you mentioned, there no such unit as "mercury", but I assume you mean inches of mercury (inHg) and millimetres of mercury (mmHg). Both of these are units of pressure, whether above or below atmospheric. Just because inHg is commonly used for vacuum, doesn't mean it can only be used for that. Torr is basically the same as mmHg, and can also be used for pressure above or below atmospheric. A micron is actually a unit of length equal to 1 micrometer or millionth of a meter, and in the context of pressure it's just as abbreviation of micrometer of mercury, one thousandth of a mmHg.

I have no idea why boost gauge manufacturers use different units for vacuum and boost, there is no reason why you have to. Note that the factory gauge uses mmHg for both, and is perfectly correct doing so.

More BS. There idea that the flow in a system is completely governed by it's smallest point is completely false. Every part of the system contributes to the total restriction, and removing one of those parts or reducing it's restriction will increase flow, even if it's only by a small amount. Your idea that you have to have a bigger TB to increase performance is completely disproven by pretty much every car on this forum (and most cars modified cars on the road). Most get good gains from intake and exhaust mods despite still using the stock TB.

Lots of people. Click the appropriate link in the article to see exactly who. If you think the info there is wrong then go edit it yourself and see how long it lasts.

So you're saying that an absolute pressure of 15psi is pressure, but an absolute pressure of 14psi isn't? Do you realise how retarded that sounds? Just because it's referred to as vacuum, doesn't make it "the opposite of pressure". That's just dumb.

Out here in the real world we don't need to be so exacting. I don't see a campaign to change the name of vacuum cleaners any time soon.

The American Vacuum Society? Wow, that must be an exciting bunch...

deadRX7Conv

Sureshot, have you taken any output readings from both of the MAFs for comparisons?

I'm wondering if a simple variable resistor mod can be used instead of a 40% change in SAFC for those of us that don't have one.

I still haven't found the 929 MAF local and cheap.

Also, its been mentioned a couple of times that the MAF will affect timing. Has this been verified? I thought that timing was based on engine rpm and throttle position. Sure, if you're not looking at throttle position but monitoring the MAF reading and timing advance, you might draw a false conclusion that those are tied together.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Naw, they really suck.


(Heh. eheh, eheh.

He said suck. eheh eheh)

My best Beavis impression.

SuperRotorMan

worth a shot.. lol im willing to try it.. worst comes to worst it dont work.. lol

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Past tense? so as of now your respect has ended?

BTW Dude, lay off on the 'I' word. You are totally inwardly focused.

So, guilty as charged?
Nice job overall.
Appeal to the mod.
Insinuate that you may deprive the mod of your ongoing favor and respect.
Deny your behavior.
Admit and rationalize your behavior.
Finally insult and accuse the mod of personal bias.

So where *do* they teach engineers those social skills?

Hey, maybe those vacuum society meetings *are* a little more exciting than the rest of us among the Great Unwashed might have imagined?


BTW, we have engineer's in the family. Rocket scientists. Really. We make them sit at the same table with the attorneys at Thanksgiving so they don't bother the rest of us.

iceblue

This is miss leading. If you have a multi layered bottle neck such as our intake system and you add one larger item it dose not magically allow the smallest bottle neck to flow more then its capability’s.

Being of length and multi layered you are actually removing an isolated restriction to free up the process of flow until the next bottle neck. This will increase gains to a point. If we stand by what jhammons01 said as BS then what you said means the lager you go the more gains are reflected infinitely. We all know that both of these are incorrect. From a viewers stand point I would place bets that jhammons01 response of 55gallon AFM was a figure of speech to make a validated point. Not to incite that removing a bottle neck without all of them is pointless.

If our AFM is indeed a bottle neck buy lets give it 10%. We add a new AFM with capable flow rate to exceed this attribute buy 3%. Our TB has an overall system bottle neck of 4% intake manifold relation.

This would lead us to believe that we can only increase our entire system pre TB up to 10% for maximum gains. We did this and excess of 3%. Will this net an overall gain? YES! But how much? Let’s say 20hp

If we only added an AFM that flowed 10% more would we see the same gains? There is more to work with here, intake length, diameter, bends, and flow capabilities. This is directly related to the AFM capability to perform as we desire. We need to know how well this flows. Running an AFM that only meets the bottle necked CFM may cause restriction because of the intake itself. If the pipe is too restrictive the source must work harder to pull the same amount air through the AFM as compared to our exceeding 3% AFM. So our net gain might only be 15hp now.

WORK = POWER SPENT

If you read closely in my last post I hinted towards just this.

Syonyk

Not sure, but no complaints here. As en engineer (computer engineer) with social skills, the company I work for lets me out to make sales calls, go to social events, and generally mingle with the general public. The fewer tech types that can do that, the higher my value.

-=Russ=-

fcdrifter13

I just want to say as a 19 year old mechanic(just getting into the game) where the hell do you guys learn all this ****. they never thought us fluid dynamics in any of the tech courses Ive taken(diesel tech, auto tech,and starting hi performance this fall) I mean I am having trouble keeping up. The **** hit the fan on page 2. Oh well wickpedia is my friend I guess. good info BTW. I just wanna go to where you guys got taught all this stuff.

Syonyk

Fluid dynamics is more of a college level topic - I believe mechanical engineering would cover it, though most "physical" engineering degrees likely have to take at least some (computer engineering doesn't). Even the stuff being discussed in this thread is pretty basic fluid dynamics - the complex stuff would be modeling turbulant flows, calculating flow rates around and through various restrictions, etc.

And, that said, almost none of it is required to understand automotive maintenance.

If you want to do some experimentation, you can set up a flowbench fairly easily with a shopvac, and test out restriction through various objects.

Finally, since you provided your age: You're 19. I assume you've graduated high school. You really should learn to type using Standard Written English. I know people claim that they can switch writing styles as needed, but a friend of mine is responsible for hiring in a fairly large university department. He's received resumes and cover letters written like you wrote your post. He's received cover letters WIRTTEN IN ALL CAPS WITH NO PUCTUNATION AND MISSPLEINGS. For those unfamiliar with the resume review process: The person reading your stuff reads 100s of resumes a day. Something that's obviously just thrown together and mailed is just thrown out and not reviewed. Either that, or it's copied and passed around the department for humor. Despite what you want to think, in the working world, written communication matters.

-=Russ=-

SureShot

OK KIDS:
BACK TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD!!

I can say that since I'm 62..

The stock AFM: Mazda N370 Denso 197200-0060
_The 929 AFM: Mazda JE50 Denso 197200-0021

_____closed___wide open
S5____3.9v_____.29v
______.4% ______97%

929___3.9v_____.26v
______.4% _____100%

This is without re-initializing the S-AFC.

During the test drive, I still have the same issue with the AFM going to 100% before the red line.
(stock turbo, TID, gutted cats, stock mufflers)

(edit)
They both hit 100% @ 11 PSI 5K RPM.

I guess my ports & bevels are gulping too much air for either of these AFM's

NZConvertible

That's not what I said. Your reading seems to be as bad as your writing. What I really said was "Every part of the system contributes to the total restriction, and removing one of those parts or reducing it's restriction will increase flow, even if it's only by a small amount." I don't see the word infinitely in there anywhere.

The idea the you can't flow any more air until you change the biggest restriction is proven wrong every time someone puts an exhaust on a 13BT (just as an example). The stock turbo outlet is only 2-3/8" and yet a 3" exhaust will produce more power than a 2.5" exhaust of similar construction. This is completely at odds with your claims. And before you say "that's because there's more boost", the only way to get more boost is to get more airflow through the turbine.

As for the rest of your post, I'm not going to bother replying because it makes so little sense. Instead of trying to baffle us with your science (and your science is baffling) you should learn to write properly. Your posts are too damn hard to read.

As long as you can still keep adding fuel using the S-AFC that shouldn't be a problem.

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

Wow! They are almost identical! Maybe you need an even bigger AFM. I meant the measurements were near identical. Do you think you got an increase in cfm but still hit the wall?

riceburner1r2001

iTrader: (4)

why dont u try putting on a afm from a mustang. i tried it for my 2nd gen wheni was fi, and wow u could feel it just sucking n the air and the power all the way threw.

SureShot

Overall I like the 929 AFM .
They both go full stroke at 5K, but with the larger cross section the 929 AFM will have less pressure drop at the same flow.

I am relying on the S-AFC's 6K & 7K corrections to make up the extra fuel needed up there.

BTW- a resistor in the AFM wire will lower the voltage, which will signal the ECU you have more air flow and make your tune even richer.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Vacuum readings between the AFM and intake vs. the stock?