V mount radiator and intercooler setup???
10-05-02, 04:19 PM
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V mount radiator and intercooler setup???
I was looking at the Knight Sports V setp that they sell for FD's where the intercool is mounted almost horizontally on top w/ the radiator laying below at an angle. This setup seems optimal due to the fact that both the IC and radiator are reciving air flow. I saw in a post that Blue TII is trying to do something like this and I would be interested in hearing what he was so say on the matter...plus anybody else that has any knowledge on fabricating a setup like this. I'm sure it would not be easy (cusom rad. mounts, IC pipin, etc...) but just thought I'd get a thread going on it....
10-05-02, 04:25 PM
#2
Re: V mount radiator and intercooler setup???
Originally posted by Spool Up
I was looking at the Knight Sports V setp that they sell for FD's where the intercool is mounted almost horizontally on top w/ the radiator laying below at an angle. This setup seems optimal due to the fact that both the IC and radiator are reciving air flow. I saw in a post that Blue TII is trying to do something like this and I would be interested in hearing what he was so say on the matter...plus anybody else that has any knowledge on fabricating a setup like this. I'm sure it would not be easy (cusom rad. mounts, IC pipin, etc...) but just thought I'd get a thread going on it....
I was looking at the Knight Sports V setp that they sell for FD's where the intercool is mounted almost horizontally on top w/ the radiator laying below at an angle. This setup seems optimal due to the fact that both the IC and radiator are reciving air flow. I saw in a post that Blue TII is trying to do something like this and I would be interested in hearing what he was so say on the matter...plus anybody else that has any knowledge on fabricating a setup like this. I'm sure it would not be easy (cusom rad. mounts, IC pipin, etc...) but just thought I'd get a thread going on it....
Fascinating none the less!!!
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10-05-02, 04:38 PM
#8
Originally posted by Spool Up
KNONFS.....got a link to the video?.
KNONFS.....got a link to the video?.
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...ghlight=videos
10-05-02, 11:36 PM
#9
The car isn't running yet, but here is what I found so far. Some of this will be repetitive w/ my earlier post, but I will add some details as well- since at least one member has showed some interest (now you will know not to do that again Spool UP!)
Horizontal mount or V- mounting I/C w/ the radiator seems to be the newest greatest thing on the circuit where you NEED maximum cooling for your radiator/oil cooler and great throttle response comming out of/between turns. That criteria appealed to me as well. An FMIC may ultimately produce a cooler intake charge since it is the first surface air will hit on the frontal area of the car, but the lag and overheating makes it much more suitable for drag racing than circuit racing or even hard street use- in my opinion.
One thing I found was it was a pretty tight fit to get it all under my hood (despite my ability to sit on a stool in the engine bay infront of the engine while wiring in my Haltech...). It immediately is obvious why any FWD or AWD vehicle has no option but to use a FMIC because of space issues, but when a 4cylinder is stuck in a certain famous Supra's cavernous hood they choose the superior horizontal mount IC!
I positioned my stock oil cooler right in the front (where FMICs usually reside) since the only cooling the rotors get is the oil cooler and once you start upping the HP of your rotary you are doing so by raising the energy of the combustion and thus really raising the oil temps in the combustion surfaces. It is plumbed w/ 10 AN lines and run off of Rob's (Pinapple Racing) more direct engine oil outlet location.
I am adding a second stock oil cooler right on top of the big metal chassis tube and it will be fed by 10 AN lines from the stock front cover outlet location. There will be a sheetmetal shroud from the top of the first oil cooler to the bottom of the second oil cooler and another shroud that will run from the upper edge on the car's nose air inlet above to the top of the 2nd oil cooler and on to the top of the radiator. This later shroud will also protect the horizontal IC above from possible heat soak as well as directing 100% of the nose's air through both oil coolers and then the radiator.
The 26" wide by 19" tall by 3" thick Griffin crosss flow radiator is mounted at and angle opposite to stock w/ the bottom brackets attached to the stock oil cooler mounts and the top leaned back very near the engines waterpump pulley. Attached to the raidator is a Black Magic electric fan whose top is just under the waterpump pulley and maybe 1" from the main pulley (w/ no accessory pulleys).
The NPR IC is mounted horizontally w/ the front accross the radiator support bracket (where the hood prop runs). In front of the IC is a "cooling panel" that along w/ the shroud under the IC comprise the ICs inlet duct. The ICs inlet and outlet have been modified into being horizontal in the same plane as the IC.
There are triangles between the radiator, IC and stock radiator mount that are sealed w/ shrouding on both sides. There is just enough room to mount my smaller sealed battery, but who wants the weight that high and in front? I am instead putting in a charging/jumping terminal there and relocating the battery. The passenger side triangle shroud is an awsome place to create a true ram air cold air box- as is the shrouded space between the IC and the top of the radiator.
To feed the IC duct one will have to get fancy running metal dryer hose from the brake ducts through the winsheild/headlight washer resvoir holes and remove the flash to pass lenses and route air here OR cut the stock nose between the turn signals on the rub strip area OR get a new nose w/ bigger inlet and use the lower part of the IC duct as a splitter. I like the cutting of the rubstrip since my car is '87 and I can put in fine black mesh to match the rest of the rub strip areas' black.
To exhaust the IC one can either use the 2-3" between the IC and the hood and depend on exhausting through the transmission tunnel as the oil cooler and radiator always do OR one can incorporate an exhuast duct on the hood in the natural low pressure area like all the race cars. I chose the reverse scoop duct on the hood and am bolting a CF duct from CarbonTrix onto a NA aluminum hood.
The IC inlet is 11" from the stock turbo's outlet and incorporates one 90 deg bend! Thats it for the inlet pipe. The outlet is a straight pipe 8" long into the Greddy intake elbow and then into the 3rd gen TB/ intake manifold. VERY DIRECT!
I will get some pics when it is all done in a couple weeks (I hope, I work slowly on my car in my spare time- but only I work on my car!) and in the meantime I am open to critisism and questions from anyone. Sorry for the long post, I know pictures will make it 100% more clear. Ian
Horizontal mount or V- mounting I/C w/ the radiator seems to be the newest greatest thing on the circuit where you NEED maximum cooling for your radiator/oil cooler and great throttle response comming out of/between turns. That criteria appealed to me as well. An FMIC may ultimately produce a cooler intake charge since it is the first surface air will hit on the frontal area of the car, but the lag and overheating makes it much more suitable for drag racing than circuit racing or even hard street use- in my opinion.
One thing I found was it was a pretty tight fit to get it all under my hood (despite my ability to sit on a stool in the engine bay infront of the engine while wiring in my Haltech...). It immediately is obvious why any FWD or AWD vehicle has no option but to use a FMIC because of space issues, but when a 4cylinder is stuck in a certain famous Supra's cavernous hood they choose the superior horizontal mount IC!
I positioned my stock oil cooler right in the front (where FMICs usually reside) since the only cooling the rotors get is the oil cooler and once you start upping the HP of your rotary you are doing so by raising the energy of the combustion and thus really raising the oil temps in the combustion surfaces. It is plumbed w/ 10 AN lines and run off of Rob's (Pinapple Racing) more direct engine oil outlet location.
I am adding a second stock oil cooler right on top of the big metal chassis tube and it will be fed by 10 AN lines from the stock front cover outlet location. There will be a sheetmetal shroud from the top of the first oil cooler to the bottom of the second oil cooler and another shroud that will run from the upper edge on the car's nose air inlet above to the top of the 2nd oil cooler and on to the top of the radiator. This later shroud will also protect the horizontal IC above from possible heat soak as well as directing 100% of the nose's air through both oil coolers and then the radiator.
The 26" wide by 19" tall by 3" thick Griffin crosss flow radiator is mounted at and angle opposite to stock w/ the bottom brackets attached to the stock oil cooler mounts and the top leaned back very near the engines waterpump pulley. Attached to the raidator is a Black Magic electric fan whose top is just under the waterpump pulley and maybe 1" from the main pulley (w/ no accessory pulleys).
The NPR IC is mounted horizontally w/ the front accross the radiator support bracket (where the hood prop runs). In front of the IC is a "cooling panel" that along w/ the shroud under the IC comprise the ICs inlet duct. The ICs inlet and outlet have been modified into being horizontal in the same plane as the IC.
There are triangles between the radiator, IC and stock radiator mount that are sealed w/ shrouding on both sides. There is just enough room to mount my smaller sealed battery, but who wants the weight that high and in front? I am instead putting in a charging/jumping terminal there and relocating the battery. The passenger side triangle shroud is an awsome place to create a true ram air cold air box- as is the shrouded space between the IC and the top of the radiator.
To feed the IC duct one will have to get fancy running metal dryer hose from the brake ducts through the winsheild/headlight washer resvoir holes and remove the flash to pass lenses and route air here OR cut the stock nose between the turn signals on the rub strip area OR get a new nose w/ bigger inlet and use the lower part of the IC duct as a splitter. I like the cutting of the rubstrip since my car is '87 and I can put in fine black mesh to match the rest of the rub strip areas' black.
To exhaust the IC one can either use the 2-3" between the IC and the hood and depend on exhausting through the transmission tunnel as the oil cooler and radiator always do OR one can incorporate an exhuast duct on the hood in the natural low pressure area like all the race cars. I chose the reverse scoop duct on the hood and am bolting a CF duct from CarbonTrix onto a NA aluminum hood.
The IC inlet is 11" from the stock turbo's outlet and incorporates one 90 deg bend! Thats it for the inlet pipe. The outlet is a straight pipe 8" long into the Greddy intake elbow and then into the 3rd gen TB/ intake manifold. VERY DIRECT!
I will get some pics when it is all done in a couple weeks (I hope, I work slowly on my car in my spare time- but only I work on my car!) and in the meantime I am open to critisism and questions from anyone. Sorry for the long post, I know pictures will make it 100% more clear. Ian
10-06-02, 12:10 AM
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damn man I need pics, **** you need to patented your idea for the FC and sell it to a US company........or just make me one..........if you could just make the mounting material it wouldn't be hard to find the neccessities....
10-06-02, 02:48 AM
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Thanks a lot for postin Blue TII. Being a college student, I don't have the time, tools, or money to do this to my car, but it's something i've always been very envious of. Running your car on the track, you realize how importing mainting cool temperatures all around (water, oil, and air) really is. I will most likely stay w/ my stock topmount IC for now seeing as I do not plan on ever boost past 9-10psi for the meantime. Suspension is my main focus for the meantime, but I would like to see where Blue TII ends up on his project...thanks again....
10-17-02, 05:45 AM
#15
This pic shows the template for the lower shroud that directs all the front nose air through the oil cooler and radiator.
I found some 22 guage stainless to make it out of. That should shine up nicely to reflect heat. The finished product will be 2 pieces like the template, but they will meet in the center.
I found some 22 guage stainless to make it out of. That should shine up nicely to reflect heat. The finished product will be 2 pieces like the template, but they will meet in the center.
10-17-02, 05:52 AM
#16
Here are the IC and the upper shrouds. These shrouds will be made out of some CF sheet I bought.
The IC is the little NPR one. Core dimensions are 8.5x19.5x2. I ported/polished out all the casting ribs inside the end tanks and welded on 2.5" inlet 2.75" outlets in new location.
The IC is the little NPR one. Core dimensions are 8.5x19.5x2. I ported/polished out all the casting ribs inside the end tanks and welded on 2.5" inlet 2.75" outlets in new location.
10-17-02, 05:58 AM
#17
This is a rear view. Shows how close turbo outlet is to IC inlet. Also, maybe you can see how the fan is mounted and how close it is to the pullies...
Look at that pretty, simplified lower intake manifold :-P
Don't think a larger compressor would fit in there.
Look at that pretty, simplified lower intake manifold :-P
Don't think a larger compressor would fit in there.
10-17-02, 10:28 AM
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Yea.....the battery (especially a stock one) takes up a lot of room in the engine bay as well as place a good amount of weight towards the front of the car. I was thinking of relocated my batter to the compartment behind the passenger seat. This will help free up room in the engine bay and balance out the weight better, even helping to counter for driver weight a little.
I'm really impressed w/ you're setup...the mounts and brackets, as well as the endtanks look really professional. Do you do all your own welding?
I included a pic of a splitter which I think would help to feed the intecooler more air since how it stands now, air will pass over it's surface more versus flowing through it. Tell me what you think....
I'm really impressed w/ you're setup...the mounts and brackets, as well as the endtanks look really professional. Do you do all your own welding?
I included a pic of a splitter which I think would help to feed the intecooler more air since how it stands now, air will pass over it's surface more versus flowing through it. Tell me what you think....
10-17-02, 11:04 AM
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It looks very clean... BUT, I have a couple of cooling concerns with the way you are doing this that you MIGHT want to think about.
1) This setup allows air to pass through the intercooler and avoid the radiator. In other words, not as much airflow through the radiator.
2) (this compounds problem 1) Air wants to go up as it is heated. You are trying to force the air to go DOWN as it is heated in the radiator. Tests will prove very conclusivly that a radiator angled the way the stock one is will cool better than a vertical radiator or one angled the other way as yours is. (Proven on experimental aircraft, I could try to find the article in Kitplanes for you, I don't remember what issue it is in.) (Yes, I'm one of those crazy EAA guys...)
You might want to re-think the position of the radiator- and consider SEPARATE ducting for the radiator and the intercooler at the very least... all the way from the inlet at the front of the car to the radiator/intercooler. You want a duct that expands gradually to SLOW the airflow.
Brad
1) This setup allows air to pass through the intercooler and avoid the radiator. In other words, not as much airflow through the radiator.
2) (this compounds problem 1) Air wants to go up as it is heated. You are trying to force the air to go DOWN as it is heated in the radiator. Tests will prove very conclusivly that a radiator angled the way the stock one is will cool better than a vertical radiator or one angled the other way as yours is. (Proven on experimental aircraft, I could try to find the article in Kitplanes for you, I don't remember what issue it is in.) (Yes, I'm one of those crazy EAA guys...)
You might want to re-think the position of the radiator- and consider SEPARATE ducting for the radiator and the intercooler at the very least... all the way from the inlet at the front of the car to the radiator/intercooler. You want a duct that expands gradually to SLOW the airflow.
Brad
10-17-02, 12:00 PM
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I am also thinking about a V-shape configuration, but using a W2A-IC instead. My idea was to bascially leave the rad in stock location and either use the TMIC and seal it up or some other sealed IC and have it lie horizontal between the alternator and the top of the radiator. My IC will be sealed for watercooling so airflow won't really matter, I just want to get my W2A-IC away from the top of the engine and putting a sealed IC up front would kinda kill airflow, 
.
The radiator for the water cooling will probably go up front favoring the drivers side. A big radiator is not needed, a liquid cooled motorcycle rad is big enough. I'm thinking the water tank will be in one of the storage bins with a submersible water pump and a screw top to add ice if needed.
I've just been brainstorming about this, so nothing has been done yet. I want to take in every option before I start spending money. Any ideas or concerns, guys?
.The radiator for the water cooling will probably go up front favoring the drivers side. A big radiator is not needed, a liquid cooled motorcycle rad is big enough. I'm thinking the water tank will be in one of the storage bins with a submersible water pump and a screw top to add ice if needed.
I've just been brainstorming about this, so nothing has been done yet. I want to take in every option before I start spending money. Any ideas or concerns, guys?
10-17-02, 12:08 PM
#23
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BlueTII: damn man, you have one CLEAN car...
I can't wait to see the finished product, thats gonna look really well, and work really well too I think...
How much clearance is there between the hood and the intercooler? doesn't look like there is gonna be much...
What kind of vent are you putting in? I was thinking something just like on the Mitsu EVOs... just some cutouts with mesh over them, would that work?
Also, how easy it gonna be to fill/drain the rad?
Good luck man, looks really clean!
I can't wait to see the finished product, thats gonna look really well, and work really well too I think...
How much clearance is there between the hood and the intercooler? doesn't look like there is gonna be much...
What kind of vent are you putting in? I was thinking something just like on the Mitsu EVOs... just some cutouts with mesh over them, would that work?
Also, how easy it gonna be to fill/drain the rad?
Good luck man, looks really clean!
10-17-02, 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by rx7_ragtop
It looks very clean... BUT, I have a couple of cooling concerns with the way you are doing this that you MIGHT want to think about.
1) This setup allows air to pass through the intercooler and avoid the radiator. In other words, not as much airflow through the radiator.
2) (this compounds problem 1) Air wants to go up as it is heated. You are trying to force the air to go DOWN as it is heated in the radiator. Tests will prove very conclusivly that a radiator angled the way the stock one is will cool better than a vertical radiator or one angled the other way as yours is. (Proven on experimental aircraft, I could try to find the article in Kitplanes for you, I don't remember what issue it is in.) (Yes, I'm one of those crazy EAA guys...)
You might want to re-think the position of the radiator- and consider SEPARATE ducting for the radiator and the intercooler at the very least... all the way from the inlet at the front of the car to the radiator/intercooler. You want a duct that expands gradually to SLOW the airflow.
Brad
It looks very clean... BUT, I have a couple of cooling concerns with the way you are doing this that you MIGHT want to think about.
1) This setup allows air to pass through the intercooler and avoid the radiator. In other words, not as much airflow through the radiator.
2) (this compounds problem 1) Air wants to go up as it is heated. You are trying to force the air to go DOWN as it is heated in the radiator. Tests will prove very conclusivly that a radiator angled the way the stock one is will cool better than a vertical radiator or one angled the other way as yours is. (Proven on experimental aircraft, I could try to find the article in Kitplanes for you, I don't remember what issue it is in.) (Yes, I'm one of those crazy EAA guys...)
You might want to re-think the position of the radiator- and consider SEPARATE ducting for the radiator and the intercooler at the very least... all the way from the inlet at the front of the car to the radiator/intercooler. You want a duct that expands gradually to SLOW the airflow.
Brad
1) switch the locations? have the intercooler mounted on the bottom, and the rad at an angle similat to the stock angle? (this would be more pipe to and from the intercooler, but still less than a front mount 'cooler)
The second one I came up with before hearing about the "radiator more functional when angled forward" thing,
2) Restrict intercooler airflow... either by (I know this is ghetto) wrapping it in cloth on one side.. air will want to take path of least resistance through the radiator... or just small ducts on the intercooler versus LARGE ducts on the radiator... ?
10-17-02, 03:10 PM
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rx7_ragtop.....i see what you're sayin about the air wanting to go through the intercooler before the radiator now. Having the splitter in there (see my pic posted above), is that kind of what you mean by creating a separate duct for the radiator separate fromt the IC? That guarentees that 100% of the airflow entering below the splitter will enter the radiator (considering that the path is sealed well). I'm not sure that the way i havea the splitter is drawn in that pic would be optiamal for the radiator as it seems it would cause some turbulence towards the top of the radiator, but if you were to also slope the splitter towards the radiator...I think that would help out.