bottlejockey

I have a 1990 N/A with quite a few things done to it. I have a chance to pick up a 1989 Turbo II that has a blow engine for $600. I was wondering if anyone has tried to put a turbo on a N/A. I don't think it will be to hard because I will have all the parts off the other car that are needed to do the switch, but I've herd that you have to change the ECU; is that true. Thanks for the help.

Ian: 1990 GTU

niner

yes you do need the ecu. but you cant just slap the turbo on the side of your current motor or anything. you need to swap the whole engine. also the drivetrain(tranny, DS, half shafts, starter, flywheel, clutch, counterweight) its not an easy swap. i would buy the turbo just for the hood and drivetrain if they are still good

JerryLH3

iTrader: (11)

If you have the money and a place to store the TII, I would buy it. Then make it a learning experience. Pull the engine yourself, take it apart, see what's wrong with it, then either rebuild it yourself, or take it to someone who can. In the end, you'll end up with your current N/A and a TII to have some fun in. What could be better?

nucleus33

Hey, I'm going to turbo my 90 NA! Rather than switching the whole thing around, I 'm going to run the stock engine (ported a bit) and bolt on a 90 turbo exhaust mannifold and and a front mount intercooler a a walbro pump and just run the stock the NA intake and FI, but have some extra injectors that come online with boost.

Sound like a plan? I intend to keep it under 10 pounds of boost. I figure that the high compression rotors will make for responsive power.

Nucleus

Sniper_X

hey nucleus33...

Errr.....

If your not kidding, then you had better invest in a tow truck your first day out.

Have it follow you.

Don't worry, it wont be very expensive, your travel charge should only be about 2.00 a mile, multiply that times 10 or 15 (the number of miles youll make it away from your house), and you'll only be into him for about saaaayyy.... $30 + the pickup fee.


Serioulsy,

The later year model 2nd gen cars have too high of a compression ratio to turbo them with any degree of safety.

Have you first returned your car to stock performance yet?
Most people have no clue what the NA cars were capable of off the lot.

Most of the time, if I return a car to stock numbers (original compression, and power) then thats what they were looking for out of their cars.

I am putting a supercharger on a 1991 2nd gen and in order to do it, I have to move down a few years to a 86-88 engine to get the lower compression rotors.

Either that or I have to put turbo rotors in my 1991 engine.

This is due to the lower compression ratio needed to safely put boost on these cars.

I have seen cars with a moderate amount of boost (up to 8 lbs) go BOOM, even after a rebuild before putting boost on it.

So be careful, nothing is easy (nothing that will last) when it comes to boost.

I had the same idea you did, and was shown the results.
(that BOOM i spoke of earlier)

I am getting a engine from www.revolutionrotary.com.

These people KNOW how to build cars, heck they even meticulously PAINT the engines and they look FANTASTIC!

Check out the 180HP Engine I am starting with!

From here we will modify the engine a bit more to handle a supercharger.

Supercharging is MUCH safer then turbo and lasts longer.
(Its cheaper too)

Redwood

Wow. That's a damn damn clean engine (with the same intake as me, hehe). It's a pretty cool website, too.

Anyway, I was thinking of the same thing, meaning going with a supercharger. Originally, I thought the same thing as everyone does when they get their first NA -- "I'm gonna turbo it pretty quick" or "I'm just gonna drop a TII engine in their". Now (actually, a few months back), I have realized the folly in my ways.

I figure that (streetable) big power needs some sort of forced air induction. Well, since a turbo is kind of an iffy idea for an NA 7, I figure a supercharger MUST be the way to go. I'm sure there will be difficult spots here, too, but what the hell, can't be much worse than the engine/tranny/drivetrain/differential/brake/wheel/ecu swap that a TII engine demands.

Sniper_X --> What kind of supercharger are you using? I remember there used to be a kit somewhere, but I was under the impression that the company had since dissappeared. I'm very interested in your progress and decisions along the way. Keep me updated.

Sniper_X

As soon as we decide on a SC for the conversion, ill let you know!

Also ill let you know when the crate engine is ready for purchase!
I want to get these guys to sell a crate version (ready to go)!!!

fc3s.org

I converted my 86 Sport to a TII and it cost me about $1500. That is with the following:

91 J-Spec motor
88 TII tranny
88 TII driveshaft, LSD, halfshafts, hug assemblies (they were in better shape than mine)
88 TII ECU
88 wiring harness
TurboXS BOV

and some other various goodies. It took me about 18 hours to do the full swap. It started first try. It hasn't had any problems in the year that I have had it.

That conversion cost less than a rebuilt N/A motor and less than any supercharger on the market.

Sniper_X

I am available weekends.

Do you want the $1,500 in cash or chicks!?

Redwood

FC3S.org --> Let me begin by saying that I have immense respect for you, not only because that is an impressive price for the swap, but also because you have done everything that I have ever even considered trying with a 7. And now, here come the questions...

-Where did you get your engine? I know that you have started selling them through your site, so, did you get one at discount or did you paying the $900(?) from corksport or whereever?
-Did you pick up a blown TII from a junkyard and just tear out everything that you wanted to install? If this is the case, why not just use the TII body as it comes ready for the engine and requires little work (assuming the body is still straight)?
-Do you believe this is better (meaning the n/a-->TII swap) than throwing a supercharger on an n/a? By better I mean more relieable/more potential/less problematic/etc.

Thanks for putting up with all the questions, but, what can I say, I just want to know the direction to go.

Sniper_X

Accordig to absolutely EVERYONE i have spoken with, Superchargers are less of a pain, and more reliable onver the long haul than turbos.

I have yet to hear a single engine building shop proclaim turbos to be less problematic than superchargers.

Given this, note that I am NOT saying they are more powerful.

Just more reliable.

fc3s.org

Can I get that in both? You get kinda tired during the 18 hours ya know

fc3s.org

Thanks

Quote:

-Where did you get your engine? I know that you have started selling them through your site, so, did you get one at discount or did you paying the $900(?) from corksport or whereever?

I got the engine from another FC owner who had planned to do the conversion, but decided it was too much for him to handle. It may sound easy to do by the way I talk about it, but if you do not have the right equipment and or tools, then it isn't as easy as it may seem.

Quote:

-Did you pick up a blown TII from a junkyard and just tear out everything that you wanted to install? If this is the case, why not just use the TII body as it comes ready for the engine and requires little work (assuming the body is still straight)?

I bought the parts seperately. Since I started with a Sport, I already had the brakes and sway bars in the car. I just bought the drivetrain and other electronic items like ECU wiring harness etc..The way to go though is to get a TII that has been totalled but still retains the drivetrain complete and undamaged.

Quote:

-Do you believe this is better (meaning the n/a-->TII swap) than throwing a supercharger on an n/a? By better I mean more relieable/more potential/less problematic/etc.

This is a tricky question. One one hand, the TII motor was built to handle a turbo. An N/A motor was NEVER built from Mazda to handle that pressure in stock configuration. Now I know that alot of people have used SC's in their N/A's, but I have heard very few that have liked them. Maybe if only used in stock SC form, IE not increasing the boost on them with different pullies, then yeah they might work fine. But in my opinion, the turbo route is the way to go. Alot of people say "Just buy a TII and sell your N/A" I say to hell with that. I put alot of work in my N/A before it was a TII and I was damned if some other idiot got to have it So the only other way was to convert it.

The key to having the least ammount of problems is to do it so that the car stays close to stock. Like when I do the conversion in my 91 vert that is as near mint as they come I am going to have it so the car looks like it was imported I mean everything from a TII engine will be in my car. TOTALLY stock. That will give me reliability. Let's face it...mods=less life usually.

Quote:

Thanks for putting up with all the questions, but, what can I say, I just want to know the direction to go.

Anytime

Redwood

NO idea what I'm gonna do.

Luckily, I have a while to decide. I haven't had my n/a long, but have certainly fallen in love with it over the summer and fall months. However, I recently met a wall with the rear side (don't worry, just minor visual damage to the bumper cover and muffler) and it was introduced to a light post by the previous owner. I'm definately keeping it, but I think I'd like to find a an 86-88 Sport (although, I can't remember if they were made all those years) with blown engine and make that into my project. When that happens, I'll decide to go SC or Turbo.

Maybe I'll go V8........

Wait...wait, no...that would suck .
See that you do. Thanks.
I may hold you to that

fc3s.org

The Sport model was in 86-87 and it was changed into the GTU in 88, then in 89 the GTUs took over the GTU and the 89 GTU was the equal to the base/SE of 86-88...got it?

FC Drifter

im sure someone has already told you, but i feel the need to say it too. DONT BOTHER WITH IT. its pointless and stupid to turbo a non turbo fc. just buy the t2. there are plenty of them out in the world that can be bought. with a n/a turned turbo you run the risk of blowing your **** up every time you drive it. it is the biggest waste of money i have seen. its not worth the time and effort when the t2 is a far better performance car bone stck than any n/a turbo'd. just save your money or if you want a turbo that badly sell your n/a and then buy the turbo fc. trust me .....its a far better decision.

fc3s.org

Have you ever done it?

ZachSpazz

Hey Bottlejockey...why don't you just drop a new turbo engine into the TII? Those 89-91 TIIS are rare as hell and it'd be nice to keep them on the road, plus it'll make your job that much easier.

Just a thought.

supergoat

I am actually thinking of the swap. I live about 2hrs from corksport so I'd probably have them do the swap for me since my apartment complex would have a **** fit if I did it here.

I have seen people who have used a TII engine on a N/A drivetrain before. How was that done?

Why do a N/A --> TII swap instead of buying a TII?? Simple. I LOVE my GXL. It is in awsome condition, I just want BOOST!!

turboren

I remember talking at length with Paul Yaw about this. Believe me, I'm hard headed and heard it from many sources before talking to Paul. Bottom line: bad idea. Namely because of the compression, but there are other things about the 13BT that make it better able to handle compressed intake charges.

I also asked him if it would be possible to use the NA externals with TII rotating assemblies. He said this might work, although he couldn't say how well. Ideally, I thought, you could use 89-91 intake and end housings, with 89-91 TII rotors, rotor housings, counterweights, oil pump, etc. My theory (not proven yet, of course) is that by using the VDI intake and 6-port end housings, you could increase low-sped drivability and still have high-end power by varying the port volume, as is done with the NA engine, except the charge would be compressed. I'm not sure how well this would work, though, as Mazda already designed the TII intake for dynamic effect ram-charging (though without the variable-length runners, more like 86-88 NA), and I believe the runners on TII's are larger to start with. The available port opening area would be MUCH larger than a TII, unless severely bridge-ported, so it should be able to flow more air, assuming the runners don't become the choking factor.

Another topic I have discussed with both Paul and Dave Lemmon (of Mazdatrix fame) was the use of a supercharger. Dave said he didn't much care for the Paxton/Nelson setup, but didn't have a whole lot of luck with the roots-type blowers he was trying to sell, either, basically because the Texas manufacturer he bought them from kept balking on delivery.

Paul didn't like the Paxton system either, but not from any inherent problems with the system itself. He didn't have much faith in Paxton because of their lack of technical support (Compressor map? Uh, no, we don't have those... what are they?). He did like the idea of a SC vs turbo, though, for their predictability, i.e. you can downshift right into the torque peak and not have to wait for the turbo to get you going. It's true that they take power from the crank to perform, but removing the cork (turbo) from the exhaust will free up some of the HP lost to turn the compressor. Paul's SC of choice is Vortech, namely because they have a proven record, don't change ownerships twice a race season, and actually have tech support (Compressor maps? Sure, no problem).

Paul was in the process of designing a Vortech system for 13BT's last time I talked to him, about six months ago. I don't know how far he's gotten on it, but my guess would be not very far yet. He's a great guy to do business with, but he is just one person, and he does most of his work by himself. He stays pretty busy with rebuilds, carb setups, odd jobs, etc. He's had a header for 13BT to T-04 in the works for over a year now, and I don't think it's even seen testing yet. He has built a 12A header, though, which WAY outflowed the RB comparison model. He's doing the same for 13B's, and I think he said he'd ultimately have three different headers for each engine, depending on mods to the engine. He also is working on a direct-fire, coil-on-plug (think LS1) ignition system.

All I can do is wait, patiently, and keep working part-time jobs...

Ren