takerwolf

Do I need to convert any fuel lines, fuel rails, FPR, or fuel tanks to do this safely? Some people say yes, some people say no. Feel free to make this a debate. If so what's the cost? Right now it actually costs more for E85 due to mileage loss but I'm running with no cats so that could help the pollution and stop the smoking at startup. Today $2.76 E85, $2.98 regular, or $3.16 premium. But hopefully if enough people start using it the price will drop. I've got a farmer nearby that is interested in making his own on 5 acres but he's got regular GMC trucks, but then again I'm not usually boosting (stock turbo is maxed as far as boost on a large streetport but I'm usually being outaccellerated but everyone so they must floor it or something) so I'm probably losing power too.
I decided to break down and give E85 a try in the T2 with Microtech LT-8 and Dynojet wideband. I put in a 50/50 mixture of E85 with premium today and added 15% to the mix trim setting. I probably should have started with 25% but too late now.
I have blueprinted primary injectors with Marren secondaries for now with RC Engineering secondaries to drop in and place the Marren's into the primary once I upgrade the turbo. Also a Walboro 255LPH pump. The rubber fuel lines are new and the vacuum lines are Hose Techniques silicone and the engine has the Rotary Aviation rebuild kit.

gross polluter

Never did it in my 7. I did it in my DSM plenty of times, generally 50/50 and tune for no knock. Of course, this is back when E85 was 1.50 a gallon and gas was 2.50. Here in san diego E85 price has exceeded gasoline so I don't feel a need to try and make the 7 run right on it. I was more into a cheaper, alternative fuel than the octane rating.

On the DSM, I had stock fuel tank, stock fuel lines, stock aluminum fuel rail. No problems.

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

You need to convert all fuel lines/fuel pump/injectors over to E85 safe plastics/rubbers/metals

Then you need bigger fuel injectors and a method to manipulate the fuel tables because E85 needs more to be injected to reach the same levels as gas.

So some dyno time will be needed to get your base maps down.

There has also been some debate on the alcohol washing away lubricants in the combustion chamber.

Bluecoop91

iTrader: (14)

E85 is an environmental fad that WILL NEVER become economically feasible as an alternative to conventional gasoline unless the US can begin to cultivate corn on the moon...

To put it another way, don't bother with the swap.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Tell that to the people in brazil..

Icemark

Wow, that is pretty cheap... I saw $3.99 for 91 octane last week. I remember gas as cheap as yours last year sometime.

I can't wait for gas to get to $5 a gallon!

and Digi7ech's answer is correct

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

Except I have been burning alcohol for years and have not experienced any lubrication issues.

Bluecoop91

iTrader: (14)

I assume you are referring to sugar cane used for biofuels in Brazil. If they produced it at maximum capacity it STILL WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO MEET CURRENT OR FUTURE DEMAND WITHIN THE UNITED STATES.

Regardless, much of their excess biofuel is under contract with Western Europe, specifically Sweden.

E85 or other current, alternative fuels will not satisfy growing US demand for oil / gasoline. Sorry, we're all screwed. Enjoy cheap gas while it lasts.

blmcquig

iTrader: (15)

obviously youve never been to Iowa. we have so much f**king corn, most of it gets thrown away. the problem is that refining it takes so much energy, it hardly makes it worth it. so lack of corn isnt the problem there, chief.

Bob Boberson

iTrader: (3)

VERY true. It is calculated that to produce enough ethanol for the US alone would require something like 99.7% of US land. Biodiesel is a much more viable alternative.

Bob Boberson

iTrader: (3)

Ha, that's another one. When producing alternative fuels on a large scale it takes about just as much energy in coal as is produced by the alternative fuel. Through ethanol, almost no difference is being made in polluting the atmosphere as an end result.

melicha8

iTrader: (1)

E85 is the worst push ever. It's not a green energy at all. The fertilizers used to grow the corn are derived from petroleum. In addition to that you may not be producing a lot of CO2 but you would be seriously offsetting the nitrogen cycle which has serious repercussions as well.

Bluecoop91

iTrader: (14)

You're right, a lack of corn is not the problem. The root problem is a lack of land.

Again you are right, ethanol has a negative EROEI (Energy Returned on Energy Invested). So even if there was enough corn in the world (there isn't) we would have to spend more energy / $$$ producing ethanol (using current methods) than we could obtain by burning it in our vehicles. Not to mention the fact that we wouldn't have enough corn left over to feed ourselves...

takerwolf

"You need to convert all fuel lines/fuel pump/injectors over to E85 safe plastics/rubbers/metals"
What about the fuel rail? And any idea where to get these parts/how much they will cost?
If I stayed at a 50/50 mixture would it still do damage and how long would it take? I found a site where I guy has been running E85 in a WRX for 3 years with no problems yet, don't mean there isn't any. Then there is supposed to be a guy that's been running it for like 30 years and just changing out fuel filters. How long would the stock system last? Enough to save up for the switchover? And some guy was saying usually engineers overdesign for chemical resistance so if it can run on 10% ethenol it should run on much higher concentrations, which is logical but still theory.
I ran it for a day on the mix and I do like it, my clothes no longer smell of car, much less smoking at start up, and hopefully no more buildup on the bumper above the exhaust tips. But if it's going to damage the car it's not worth it, I've got at least 10k in mods/rebuild and the car has less then 80k on the odometer.

SirCygnus

iTrader: (1)

hydrogen owns all.

moremazda

iTrader: (4)

-Aluminum corrodes in the presence of alcohol
-The plating on the mild steel fuel lines as well as the mils steel it self corrodes in the presence of alcohol
-The lining of the tank is not sufficient for long term ethanol use
-Aluminum is electrically conductive (gasoline is not) so in short NO IN TANK FUEL PUMP SHOULD BE USED.
-All rubber needs to be rated for 100% alcohol use, organic rubbers (like the stuff sold at the parts store) very quickly degrade in the presence of alcohols.

takerwolf

that stinks, so even at 50% it'll be a problem?
I'm serious about this so where can I get parts for the conversion? Might have to save up but not like I don't waste money on the car already.

"Hydrogen owns all", show me how to run it and store it, I'm all for it. Maybe I'll just say screw it and do a Paul Pantone GEET conversion, that probably don't work with turbo EFI even if it does work though.

A7X

If you are trying to tell me people the differance between what you THINK you know and what you know then at least do some research before you talk smack. E85 is a great alternative and im attending a college that offereres bachelor degree in alternate fuels. There is plenty enough corn to make this happen. Not only that, it will bring the economy way up in the aggriculture world. It has alot of benefits you obviously dont know about.

Bluecoop91

iTrader: (14)

LOL, everything I have stated has been based on research I have done or classes I have taken at the university level.

E85 is "a great alternative" in the eyes of the ignorant or politically motivated.

The sad fact is that if we geared domestic agriculture toward wholesale alternative fuel production the price of feed stock would drastically increase. Some of this is already occurring, check the price of meat this coming grilling season. When it comes to E85, the costs far outweigh the benefits at this time.

J-Rat

iTrader: (2)

YOu keep coming back to corn. Now there is an extra step or two involved in refining corn that causes it to be in a negative NEB. However when you look at sugarcane or other alternatives that require less energy

Nothing else you are saying is groundbreaking. The problem is, alcohol based fuels here in the US are in their infancy, and they may not solve the problem but at least someone is trying a solution instead of saying "we are screwed".

hondamanlxi

l

hondamanlxi

ditto


At this point, ANYTHING we do to ease the strain on fossil fuels could be a blessing.

Bluecoop91

iTrader: (14)

I'm not sure who you quoted in the second part of your response, but I never said alternative fuels should not be further researched and developed. The problem with E85 is that it has become popular due to agriculture lobbyists not because is better for the environment in any way.

My argument is that E85 is not a viable alternative and converting an inefficient rotary engine in an 80s car to run on E85 is a huge waste of time.

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

E85 can never replace the power/price of gas BUT it's not about price/effectiveness.

It's about the fact that is burns VERY clean.
It's a trade off. You lose some power but you gain a cleaner enviroment.

As for corn... Been over that in other threads. Almost ANY sugar based organic matter can be used for ethanol production.

A great example would be infected corn crops which can't be sold can be used.

Gas has become the wonder fuel of our era. It's going to be very hard to replace and maybe we never will. These are all second choices which help benefit our enviroment.

MaxJenius211

The arguments would be so much easier to address if everyone cited their sources.

And everyone seems to have left out electricity, the real "green" future of the automobile is the electric car. So we need more focus on Nuclear power, high capacity battery technology, solar energy collection and high efficiency electrical components.

E85 might be an important stepping stone to break away from the Middle East, Hydrogen may be the best possible replacement for the gasoline engine, but almost anything at this point is better than nothing.

Agree/disagree?

-Max