TO4E or Sequential Twins?
12-21-05, 06:59 PM
#1
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
TO4E or Sequential Twins?
I have an S5/TO4E (Compressor A/R .60) hybrid (Slightly larger then a BNR stage 4, I've heard) and I have the stock twins for an FD (and everything nessisary to make them work)
The car is an S4 TII that has a MegaSquirt and all the supporting mods nessisary to run either turbo.
I'm wondering if I can get a good list of pros/cons for either setup.
Goals: ~320HP, streetable, fun to drive, consistant, pump gas.
The car is an S4 TII that has a MegaSquirt and all the supporting mods nessisary to run either turbo.
I'm wondering if I can get a good list of pros/cons for either setup.
Goals: ~320HP, streetable, fun to drive, consistant, pump gas.
12-21-05, 07:07 PM
#2
I R SAD PANDA W/O BAW
The sequential FD twins will most likely cause you a vac routing nightmare. I dont even know why youd consider the twins when you have a perfectly capable hybrid. I dont even recall anybody attempting to make the stock fd twins work on an FC let alone working sequentially.
12-21-05, 07:12 PM
#3
Senior Member
are your ports stock?
if you want 320RWHP i dont think that can be done on a stock port 13b if you plan to do sequential twins. but i believe you might be able to get 275-300RWHP max sequentially but then again im basing my knowledge on 13brew's using twins not 13bt's if that makes any difference
the hybrid should be able to do that easily on the other hand.
im guessing when you say you have everything to make them work that includes proper cooling and of course future tuning. if that is the case the main difference would be space in the engine bay, bling factor, and fabrication time (i guess you dont really care about cost since you are thinking of putting twins on). the twins might have more power downlow but the hybrid wont be that bad either.
all i have to say is i wish i was in your position
if you want 320RWHP i dont think that can be done on a stock port 13b if you plan to do sequential twins. but i believe you might be able to get 275-300RWHP max sequentially but then again im basing my knowledge on 13brew's using twins not 13bt's if that makes any difference
the hybrid should be able to do that easily on the other hand.
im guessing when you say you have everything to make them work that includes proper cooling and of course future tuning. if that is the case the main difference would be space in the engine bay, bling factor, and fabrication time (i guess you dont really care about cost since you are thinking of putting twins on). the twins might have more power downlow but the hybrid wont be that bad either.
all i have to say is i wish i was in your position
12-21-05, 07:21 PM
#4
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Its been talked about over and over again that sequentials are hard to do, and usually not worth the extra cost. Using the FD turbos is gonna be tough, I don't even think that they clear the LIM on the TII properly.
Besides that, a hybrid, like the other gentleman said, is the best option.
Besides that, a hybrid, like the other gentleman said, is the best option.
12-21-05, 07:26 PM
#5
The one thing I haven't seen anyone mention here (and I know others will agree with me) is that the FD twins are GARBAGE. Infact, I would go so far as to say all Mazda's twins are garbage. They burn out easily, have a ton of problems, and are just unreliable in general. We do rebuilds on these things all the time, we actually have a car in the shop with a shot rear turbo on it. with 55k original miles on the car.
My advice? The T04E
My advice? The T04E
12-21-05, 07:27 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by Tofuball
I have an S5/TO4E (Compressor A/R .60) hybrid (Slightly larger then a BNR stage 4, I've heard) and I have the stock twins for an FD (and everything nessisary to make them work)
The car is an S4 TII that has a MegaSquirt and all the supporting mods nessisary to run either turbo.
I'm wondering if I can get a good list of pros/cons for either setup.
Goals: ~320HP, streetable, fun to drive, consistant, pump gas.
The car is an S4 TII that has a MegaSquirt and all the supporting mods nessisary to run either turbo.
I'm wondering if I can get a good list of pros/cons for either setup.
Goals: ~320HP, streetable, fun to drive, consistant, pump gas.
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12-21-05, 08:59 PM
#8
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ilike2eatricers
The sequential FD twins will most likely cause you a vac routing nightmare. I dont even know why youd consider the twins when you have a perfectly capable hybrid. I dont even recall anybody attempting to make the stock fd twins work on an FC let alone working sequentially.
Originally Posted by bacek
are your ports stock?
if you want 320RWHP i dont think that can be done on a stock port 13b if you plan to do sequential twins. but i believe you might be able to get 275-300RWHP max sequentially but then again im basing my knowledge on 13brew's using twins not 13bt's if that makes any difference
the hybrid should be able to do that easily on the other hand.
im guessing when you say you have everything to make them work that includes proper cooling and of course future tuning. if that is the case the main difference would be space in the engine bay, bling factor, and fabrication time (i guess you dont really care about cost since you are thinking of putting twins on). the twins might have more power downlow but the hybrid wont be that bad either.
all i have to say is i wish i was in your position
if you want 320RWHP i dont think that can be done on a stock port 13b if you plan to do sequential twins. but i believe you might be able to get 275-300RWHP max sequentially but then again im basing my knowledge on 13brew's using twins not 13bt's if that makes any difference
the hybrid should be able to do that easily on the other hand.
im guessing when you say you have everything to make them work that includes proper cooling and of course future tuning. if that is the case the main difference would be space in the engine bay, bling factor, and fabrication time (i guess you dont really care about cost since you are thinking of putting twins on). the twins might have more power downlow but the hybrid wont be that bad either.
all i have to say is i wish i was in your position
You're right, I do have the cooling and future tuning The down low power is something that appeases me to the complex idea of putting twins on.Don't envy me, I get these parts because I work on these cars too much. :P
Originally Posted by BlaCkPlaGUE
Its been talked about over and over again that sequentials are hard to do, and usually not worth the extra cost. Using the FD turbos is gonna be tough, I don't even think that they clear the LIM on the TII properly.
Besides that, a hybrid, like the other gentleman said, is the best option.
Besides that, a hybrid, like the other gentleman said, is the best option.
There is no extra cost, thats not a factor :p
Originally Posted by arghx
how the hell would you even control them? FD ecu w/ Power FC?
Originally Posted by SonicRaT
If it's really larger than a stage 4, your goal would be met and passed.
Originally Posted by evileagle
The one thing I haven't seen anyone mention here (and I know others will agree with me) is that the FD twins are GARBAGE. Infact, I would go so far as to say all Mazda's twins are garbage. They burn out easily, have a ton of problems, and are just unreliable in general. We do rebuilds on these things all the time, we actually have a car in the shop with a shot rear turbo on it. with 55k original miles on the car.
My advice? The T04E
My advice? The T04E
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm seeing a definite preference for the TO4E!
I was thinking that the FD Twins would spool faster, and that it would be fun to make it work with an FC (I fabricate because I working on the car, not because I want power), but from all the people who say the FD twins are garbage, I'm begining to think that I might not bother :p
Thank you everyone for your input, keep it coming
12-22-05, 12:00 AM
#10
The Silver Bullet
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could you possible make a TT setup with other larger turbos, or one small (say stock FC size) and one larger (like a T04e) that way it would spool faster then it would be fully spooled by the time the 2nd kicked in? or am i just a stupid idiot?
12-22-05, 12:08 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by Tofuball
I was thinking that the FD Twins would spool faster, and that it would be fun to make it work with an FC (I fabricate because I working on the car, not because I want power), but from all the people who say the FD twins are garbage, I'm begining to think that I might not bother :p
Thank you everyone for your input, keep it coming
Thank you everyone for your input, keep it coming
12-22-05, 12:09 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by Alex6969
could you possible make a TT setup with other larger turbos, or one small (say stock FC size) and one larger (like a T04e) that way it would spool faster then it would be fully spooled by the time the 2nd kicked in? or am i just a stupid idiot?
12-22-05, 12:14 AM
#13
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i know that, what i'm saying is make your own set of twins (acutaly not twins, big borther and little sister) this idea is in now way practical, i just want to know if it can be done
12-22-05, 08:56 AM
#14
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by gingenhagen
The stock FD twins I've definitely heard are garbage. But the 99 spec ones are fine, IIRC. For some quick spooling single turbos, you could always go for the expensive ball-bearing ones.
The goal of this car is to have over 320 streetable and perhaps anywhere from 350-420peakHP for under $1000 INCLUDING THE PRICE OF THE CAR.
Think it's impossable?
Running 87 TII with 174K on it, full Apexi GT exhaust and some ebay intake: $200
Engine freshining rebiuld + porting on spare TII engine: $470
Volvo 940 intercooler + all the intake piping I could ever want: $21 (I'm having a buddy of mine weld on aluminum end tanks though, the stock plastic ones look flimzy)
1600cc injectors: $150
Walbro 255 fuel pump: $75
FD upper intake manifold + other misc FD parts: $free cuz Crash Test Joey is awesome$
MegaSquirt Plug-n-Play EFI: $450
Misc studs, bolts: $10
Using two oil coolers: Free off parts car
MR2 E-Fan: $20
New plugs, wires, filters, and a whole lot of cleaning supplies: Free, came in a parts car.
Turbos laying around the shop: Free
Selling all the old stuff off the TII (Old running engine, old turbo, old manifolds, etc etc): -$450
TOTAL so far: $946
I've got $54 left!
Who said you needed heaps of money to have a fast car?
(I know, I know, gas and maitnence not included!)
Originally Posted by Alex6969
i know that, what i'm saying is make your own set of twins (acutaly not twins, big borther and little sister) this idea is in now way practical, i just want to know if it can be done
It's been done, it is just that with modern turbo technology ball-bearing turbos spool so insanely fast...
I mean even if thats too much lag for you, you can use NO2 to spool even a gigantic turbo insanely fast.
12-22-05, 09:04 AM
#15
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Tofu, are you running spark with the megasquirt on that T2 engine as well?
I'd really like to get hold of timing and fuel maps for a T2 engine since I'll be running a jspec T2 in my vert with the megasquirt.
I'd really like to get hold of timing and fuel maps for a T2 engine since I'll be running a jspec T2 in my vert with the megasquirt.
12-22-05, 09:26 AM
#17
Lives on the Forum
1) FD twins are junk.
2) FD twins don't fit with any FC 13B LIM.
3) That sequential system is like 3 or 4 stages, and there's a progressive one in there somewhere, IIRC. Binary ON / OFF would not be a big deal for control, but a progressive control is a bit tricky...even with the Megasquirt.
Did I mention the FD twins are junk?
-Ted
2) FD twins don't fit with any FC 13B LIM.
3) That sequential system is like 3 or 4 stages, and there's a progressive one in there somewhere, IIRC. Binary ON / OFF would not be a big deal for control, but a progressive control is a bit tricky...even with the Megasquirt.
Did I mention the FD twins are junk?
-Ted
12-22-05, 09:53 AM
#18
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by RETed
1) FD twins are junk.
2) FD twins don't fit with any FC 13B LIM.
3) That sequential system is like 3 or 4 stages, and there's a progressive one in there somewhere, IIRC. Binary ON / OFF would not be a big deal for control, but a progressive control is a bit tricky...even with the Megasquirt.
Did I mention the FD twins are junk?
-Ted
2) FD twins don't fit with any FC 13B LIM.
3) That sequential system is like 3 or 4 stages, and there's a progressive one in there somewhere, IIRC. Binary ON / OFF would not be a big deal for control, but a progressive control is a bit tricky...even with the Megasquirt.
Did I mention the FD twins are junk?
-Ted
Reason 1 is why I think I wont use the twins!
Originally Posted by Parastie
Tofu, are you running spark with the megasquirt on that T2 engine as well?
I'd really like to get hold of timing and fuel maps for a T2 engine since I'll be running a jspec T2 in my vert with the megasquirt.
I'd really like to get hold of timing and fuel maps for a T2 engine since I'll be running a jspec T2 in my vert with the megasquirt.
12-22-05, 10:08 AM
#19
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Oh, and Ted, I didnt know that the system was 3/4 stage progressive! Thats pretty cool! I always thought it just opened the exhaust gate to the secondary turbo, and then opened the intake gate and bam, second turbo engaged!
Progressive control on the MS isnt hard at all tho, MuyThaiBxr just wrote some code that makes the injector staging progressive. It's awesome. Theres no "shudder" when the injectors come on at any vac or RPM
Right now I have the MegaSquirt controlling the E-Fans, Aux ports, and VDI, as well as spark and fuel on my 'vert.
Progressive control on the MS isnt hard at all tho, MuyThaiBxr just wrote some code that makes the injector staging progressive. It's awesome. Theres no "shudder" when the injectors come on at any vac or RPM
Right now I have the MegaSquirt controlling the E-Fans, Aux ports, and VDI, as well as spark and fuel on my 'vert.
12-22-05, 10:11 AM
#20
Jesus is the Messiah
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by SonicRaT
Damn, if we could count parts sold, my 11 second car cost me about $300
12-28-05, 04:53 AM
#21
I'm a boost creep...
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Originally Posted by Tofuball
Nah, the MegaSquirt can control them.
12-28-05, 04:41 PM
#23
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The problem with "simplistic" sequential twin-turbo control is that you're almost guaranteed to get driveability issues during the transition. If you look at the way Mazda, Subaru and Toyota control their sequential systems, there's always a fairly complicated method involved in pre-spooling the secondary turbo. Do it too early and you can damage the turbo; too late and you get a noticeable dip in power. It's just not worth doing it unless you can get it to work as well as factory. Simultaneous operation is a much better option IMO.
