TII dyno disappointment...wtf is the power?
01-03-06, 08:27 PM
#26
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Wow...at 11 psi with a stage 3 I hit 300 rwhp..and I thought I was dissapointed 
Boost definately isn't an issue. And with a standalone you throw flames like that?! Wow...I'm jealous haha
Boost definately isn't an issue. And with a standalone you throw flames like that?! Wow...I'm jealous haha
01-03-06, 08:48 PM
#28
I R SAD PANDA W/O BAW
Originally Posted by Karack
problem is it shouldn't throw flames if it is properly tuned...
i assume he was just playing with the mixtures at that point though.
i assume he was just playing with the mixtures at that point though.
Wankel7- Does the car actually feel like 200whp? Is there any correction that needs to input?
01-03-06, 08:50 PM
#29
Originally Posted by SmogSUX
Wow...at 11 psi with a stage 3 I hit 300 rwhp..and I thought I was dissapointed Boost definately isn't an issue. And with a standalone you throw flames like that?! Wow...I'm jealous haha
Boost definately isn't an issue. And with a standalone you throw flames like that?! Wow...I'm jealous hahaJust about all the flames we got were on throttle off situations when I just let the throttle close completely. The only other times was when I played with the throttle on decel which yeilded very large flamage!
BTW I drove the car while he tuned, which is why I seem to know a bit about the car/situation....
01-03-06, 09:15 PM
#30
Rotary Enthusiast
Lightened flywheel??? try N370 and corresponding counterweight (could be automatic counterweight)... From my point of view it will rev high like a motorcycle but it will not push as good... Just my opinion... Would you mind showing us the fuel maps so we can help you a bit more??? Timming is off a little also... Remember exhaust porting affects timing also, if you go too far timing will not go where you want...
01-03-06, 09:31 PM
#32
Lives on the Forum
This is why...if you don't know what you're doing, pay someone who does to tune the car.
First, I agree...your ignition timing is too conservative.
The Hitman ignition timing maps are way too conservative.
No excuse with a dyno, just keep bumping the ignition timing up until the power starts to drop.
When you get too advanced, the power will drop significantly.
I would easily add 5...maybe even 10 degrees to your ignition timing numbers, if those are actually total advance degrees on your datalogs.
Second, even at 11.0:1, it still to lean.
Play with the AFR...**** the wide-band.
If you're on the dyno, the dyno will tell you if you're doing this right.
Always add more fuel first, and then go the other way.
As long as you're making more power, keep going that direction.
Once you hit peek power, add just a tad more fuel to keep the engine safe on the street.
-Ted
First, I agree...your ignition timing is too conservative.
The Hitman ignition timing maps are way too conservative.
No excuse with a dyno, just keep bumping the ignition timing up until the power starts to drop.
When you get too advanced, the power will drop significantly.
I would easily add 5...maybe even 10 degrees to your ignition timing numbers, if those are actually total advance degrees on your datalogs.
Second, even at 11.0:1, it still to lean.
Play with the AFR...**** the wide-band.
If you're on the dyno, the dyno will tell you if you're doing this right.
Always add more fuel first, and then go the other way.
As long as you're making more power, keep going that direction.
Once you hit peek power, add just a tad more fuel to keep the engine safe on the street.
-Ted
01-03-06, 09:46 PM
#34
Originally Posted by Angel Guard Racing Team
How do you adjust fuel with a stock fpr???? What is the egt when reaching peak rpm's???
Uh, a stand alone?
Peak EGTs were around 940C-960C through a Greddy 52mm gauge which has around 2800 miles on it tops from what I know of the car and its use.
01-03-06, 09:48 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by RETed
This is why...if you don't know what you're doing, pay someone who does to tune the car.
First, I agree...your ignition timing is too conservative.
The Hitman ignition timing maps are way too conservative.
No excuse with a dyno, just keep bumping the ignition timing up until the power starts to drop.
When you get too advanced, the power will drop significantly.
I would easily add 5...maybe even 10 degrees to your ignition timing numbers, if those are actually total advance degrees on your datalogs.
Second, even at 11.0:1, it still to lean.
Play with the AFR...**** the wide-band.
If you're on the dyno, the dyno will tell you if you're doing this right.
Always add more fuel first, and then go the other way.
As long as you're making more power, keep going that direction.
Once you hit peek power, add just a tad more fuel to keep the engine safe on the street.
-Ted
First, I agree...your ignition timing is too conservative.
The Hitman ignition timing maps are way too conservative.
No excuse with a dyno, just keep bumping the ignition timing up until the power starts to drop.
When you get too advanced, the power will drop significantly.
I would easily add 5...maybe even 10 degrees to your ignition timing numbers, if those are actually total advance degrees on your datalogs.
Second, even at 11.0:1, it still to lean.
Play with the AFR...**** the wide-band.
If you're on the dyno, the dyno will tell you if you're doing this right.
Always add more fuel first, and then go the other way.
As long as you're making more power, keep going that direction.
Once you hit peek power, add just a tad more fuel to keep the engine safe on the street.
-Ted
01-03-06, 10:01 PM
#38
Ted,
They dyno could possibly be in question, but not by that much. At SevenStock, I made 298 on the Rotary Reliability dyno, then came here to Tucson and made 347 on the ApexR dyno. Myself and Trevor did some mild retuning and it may have made a difference, but I dont think it was 50 HP of a difference. Either way, I am going back on friday to see if I can hit 400 wheel on stock ports.. Hope I dont blow anything..
They dyno could possibly be in question, but not by that much. At SevenStock, I made 298 on the Rotary Reliability dyno, then came here to Tucson and made 347 on the ApexR dyno. Myself and Trevor did some mild retuning and it may have made a difference, but I dont think it was 50 HP of a difference. Either way, I am going back on friday to see if I can hit 400 wheel on stock ports.. Hope I dont blow anything..
01-03-06, 10:16 PM
#39
Lives on the Forum
Originally Posted by J-Rat
They dyno could possibly be in question, but not by that much.
You've got a several tens of thousands of dollars worth of tuning tool right under your nose, and you don't even know it.
Too many people get caught up with AFR numbers and staring at the wide-band.
This is a good example.
Also, the absolute numbers don't really matter.
As long as the dyno show and increase (or decrease), that's all that matters.
Use the dyno as a tuning tool - it's more powerful that almost single sensor / gauge / monitor package as long as you know how to use it.
It's really no excuse to not be able to get the most out of your car from a dyno session, unless you don't have the money / **** of the dyno owners / dunno what you're doing.
-Ted
01-03-06, 11:10 PM
#41
Passing life by
This has been popping up finally this last page. What type of dyno were you on. Was it a mustang dyno? I have seen easy of 50 to 90hp differences from style of dyno. There is a formula to use when using one of the few like mustang dynos to take the displayed number and get your actual output.
01-04-06, 12:10 AM
#42
I R SAD PANDA W/O BAW
Originally Posted by iceblue
This has been popping up finally this last page. What type of dyno were you on. Was it a mustang dyno? I have seen easy of 50 to 90hp differences from style of dyno. There is a formula to use when using one of the few like mustang dynos to take the displayed number and get your actual output.
Originally Posted by ilike2eatricers
Wankel7- Does the car actually feel like 200whp? Is there any correction that needs to input?
01-04-06, 07:22 AM
#43
Originally Posted by iceblue
This has been popping up finally this last page. What type of dyno were you on. Was it a mustang dyno? I have seen easy of 50 to 90hp differences from style of dyno. There is a formula to use when using one of the few like mustang dynos to take the displayed number and get your actual output.
Dynojet
01-04-06, 09:37 AM
#45
Haven't we ALL heard this
Thread Starter
Thank you !
Thank you to all the folks that chimed in on this thread. Santiago and I have done so much work to this car and I hope we can make it come together.
Thanks Jrat and Trevor for your advice...
At least ONE thing in the setup is doing its job...the FMIC. Notice the intake temps on the dyno 75F? I think ambient that day was 60F. Not to bad.
When I get home I am going to try this to see what we can uncover:
1. Take off the pre silencer and do a run make sure for some reason the exhaust isnt a restriction
2. Wire the wastegate open to test how good the BNR wastegate enlargement really is.
3. Wire the wastegate SHUT to test how good the boost response is. No, I wont floor it
4. Change the trailing timing to increase the split more than I have. I will mimic Jrats maps to get it at the 8* + split that was recommended
5. I will also increase the leading advance as recommended.
6. Start fattening up the fuel at all ranges
7. Install the MBC and set it up for 15 psi. I know having no boost controller should kill power.
8. Contemplate why my fresh rebuild with new housings and RA seals is doing 90psi hot compression (230rpm @ 700' on S4 TII rotors) after a 2000 mile break in.
At that point if no positive progress was made...anybody want a clean TII...I could do a dDub. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2060845
JK
James
Thanks Jrat and Trevor for your advice...
At least ONE thing in the setup is doing its job...the FMIC. Notice the intake temps on the dyno 75F? I think ambient that day was 60F. Not to bad.
When I get home I am going to try this to see what we can uncover:
1. Take off the pre silencer and do a run make sure for some reason the exhaust isnt a restriction
2. Wire the wastegate open to test how good the BNR wastegate enlargement really is.
3. Wire the wastegate SHUT to test how good the boost response is. No, I wont floor it
4. Change the trailing timing to increase the split more than I have. I will mimic Jrats maps to get it at the 8* + split that was recommended
5. I will also increase the leading advance as recommended.
6. Start fattening up the fuel at all ranges
7. Install the MBC and set it up for 15 psi. I know having no boost controller should kill power.
8. Contemplate why my fresh rebuild with new housings and RA seals is doing 90psi hot compression (230rpm @ 700' on S4 TII rotors) after a 2000 mile break in.
At that point if no positive progress was made...anybody want a clean TII...I could do a dDub. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2060845
JK
James
Last edited by Wankel7; 01-04-06 at 10:02 AM.
01-04-06, 09:49 AM
#46
Haven't we ALL heard this
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by ilike2eatricers
It'll still shoot flames if properly tuned if you're beating on it at the track
Wankel7- Does the car actually feel like 200whp? Is there any correction that needs to input?
Wankel7- Does the car actually feel like 200whp? Is there any correction that needs to input?
No, it really feels like it did before I did the bigger turbo, intercooler, haltech.
I knew something was up before I took her to the dyno.
Originally Posted by RETed
This is why...if you don't know what you're doing, pay someone who does to tune the car.
First, I agree...your ignition timing is too conservative.
The Hitman ignition timing maps are way too conservative.
No excuse with a dyno, just keep bumping the ignition timing up until the power starts to drop.
When you get too advanced, the power will drop significantly.
I would easily add 5...maybe even 10 degrees to your ignition timing numbers, if those are actually total advance degrees on your datalogs.
Second, even at 11.0:1, it still to lean.
Play with the AFR...**** the wide-band.
If you're on the dyno, the dyno will tell you if you're doing this right.
Always add more fuel first, and then go the other way.
As long as you're making more power, keep going that direction.
Once you hit peek power, add just a tad more fuel to keep the engine safe on the street.
-Ted
First, I agree...your ignition timing is too conservative.
The Hitman ignition timing maps are way too conservative.
No excuse with a dyno, just keep bumping the ignition timing up until the power starts to drop.
When you get too advanced, the power will drop significantly.
I would easily add 5...maybe even 10 degrees to your ignition timing numbers, if those are actually total advance degrees on your datalogs.
Second, even at 11.0:1, it still to lean.
Play with the AFR...**** the wide-band.
If you're on the dyno, the dyno will tell you if you're doing this right.
Always add more fuel first, and then go the other way.
As long as you're making more power, keep going that direction.
Once you hit peek power, add just a tad more fuel to keep the engine safe on the street.
-Ted
The datalogs match the timing maps within a degree or so.
James
01-04-06, 10:01 AM
#47
Originally Posted by Wankel7
2. Wire the wastegate open to test how good the BNR wastegate enlargment really is.
4. Change the trailing timing to increase the split more than I have. I will mimic Jrats maps to get it at the 8* + split that was recommended
Interestingly enough, there seems to be alot of controversy surrounding the management of the split, and some even remove the trailing plugs and cap the plug hole off. However, with all the research myself and Trevor have done, the dyno seems to show 8-12 yielding max power without risk of pre-ignition.
Rat
01-04-06, 10:31 AM
#49
Haven't we ALL heard this
Thread Starter
My MAP and Porting
Originally Posted by Angel Guard Racing Team
Lightened flywheel??? try N370 and corresponding counterweight (could be automatic counterweight)... From my point of view it will rev high like a motorcycle but it will not push as good... Just my opinion... Would you mind showing us the fuel maps so we can help you a bit more??? Timming is off a little also... Remember exhaust porting affects timing also, if you go too far timing will not go where you want...
Here is a link to my map...
Yeah, I used the RB street exhaust port template. Rather conservitive.
And the secondaries: RB Streetport template:
I was using 9s in all four holes on the dyno. And the plugs were 10 miles fresh.
The other thing on the dyno that bothered us...
Santiago and I were doing load based tuning... so it was hard on the car...when she was floored holding the RPM and boost for tuning. The oil temps came up FAST. Like you could see the needle moving. It went from 170-230 in no time.
Now, the only fan infront of the car was a large barn fan...but still...wow.
James
Last edited by Wankel7; 01-04-06 at 10:39 AM.
01-04-06, 04:58 PM
#50
Rotary Enthusiast
This might be part of the timing issue, I cannot appreciate it very well due to the angle but from this imaginary line I traced it kinda looks low... But again this is a first glance... let me look more into it along with some timings and maps...