subs in bins, pros and cons
06-11-04, 06:55 PM
#1
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subs in bins, pros and cons
well i got a new amp for my b-day today and am going to get a nice sub but i dont want a huge *** setup, i just want like a 10 or 12inch sub. i was wondering who's put theres in there bin andhow does it sound compared to just getting a box and putting it in the hatch somwhere. i was going to put it in a bin and build a box for it so it would sound good but i just want know everybody's opinion on where it sounds best. thanks
06-11-04, 07:06 PM
#2
I have them in my bins and they sound pretty damn good however there are more people on this board that would disagree with me, or maybe not so much disagree but would say it sounds good but not as good as if you had them in a box pointed toward the back glass. If you go to the interior/exterior sound system part of this board you will find out alot more and you can also see my setup. I would go with the boxes if I was you because putting them in the bins is no easy task and a box you can remove if you want quick weight removal 
06-11-04, 07:14 PM
#3
knowledge junkie
Just remember heavy boxes & heavy amps in the back of the car will through your car's balance off a bit. Personally I'd go with one 8" Kicker Sola Baric (regular L5 or competition L7) to get the smaller lightweight box dimensions. It can fit in the spartire compartment, bins, or create a false hatch side for it.
06-11-04, 08:31 PM
#5
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
OH I CAN NOT BELIEVE THAT YOU DID NOT SEARCH THIS.
There are only 500 threads on this.
The short of it:
Bad bad bad bad place, will never sound better than average to poor. The bins should only be used if you do not care about clean, accurate, deep bass.
They are fine for just loud and lousy bass however.
From some of the 30+ threads that I used search "bins Subs" on:
There are only 500 threads on this.
The short of it:
Bad bad bad bad place, will never sound better than average to poor. The bins should only be used if you do not care about clean, accurate, deep bass.
They are fine for just loud and lousy bass however.
From some of the 30+ threads that I used search "bins Subs" on:
The compartments suck... yeah with some big woofers, enough time, power and money you might make them sound okay, but nothing like they can sound if you put them in the rear area, either firing towards the hatch or towards the back of the car.
The standing wave that gets created when just bolting a panel or woofer box that fires upwards in the storage bin area, kills the bass being created, making you use bigger and bigger speakers.
While I am sure Josh's friends system sounds nice, I bet I can put two 8's in each rear corner in a tiny band pass box and blow away his two 10" mounted in the bin area.
Its just not a great spot in the FC or FD.
The standing wave that gets created when just bolting a panel or woofer box that fires upwards in the storage bin area, kills the bass being created, making you use bigger and bigger speakers.
While I am sure Josh's friends system sounds nice, I bet I can put two 8's in each rear corner in a tiny band pass box and blow away his two 10" mounted in the bin area.
Its just not a great spot in the FC or FD.
low frequency(sp) waves are long...from what I understand you need about 6ft for most bass waves, you are probably best with you subs in a box on top of the bins but facing the hatch so the sound bounces back to you.
I have a friend with a stereo who had the subs facing forward with his back seat down you could barely hear them in the car, but when we turned them around and the wave bounced off the trunk...whole different story.
I have a friend with a stereo who had the subs facing forward with his back seat down you could barely hear them in the car, but when we turned them around and the wave bounced off the trunk...whole different story.
Your best bet for a better sounding system is a single 10 or 12 inch woofer in a fiberglass and MDF enclosure where the spare tire goes. The hatch area will horn load the woofer effectivly doubling or in some cases even tripling the perceived output.
I know there will be people that say, "mine is where the bins were/are and it sounds great". I am sure that it does, however that location frankly will suck when compared to a woofer loaded in the rear of the car, and I know for a fact that ever person that ever had that done, would change the second they hear a properly mounted woofer in an optimum enclosure, in the rear of the car instead of in the middle of the car at the bins.
I know there will be people that say, "mine is where the bins were/are and it sounds great". I am sure that it does, however that location frankly will suck when compared to a woofer loaded in the rear of the car, and I know for a fact that ever person that ever had that done, would change the second they hear a properly mounted woofer in an optimum enclosure, in the rear of the car instead of in the middle of the car at the bins.
There's more to a successful sub install than volume. The most important part of any speaker install is the frequency response you get from it. By aiming the sub straight up at the flat roof the sound waves are reflected straight back down at the speaker, resulting in the sound waves simply cancelling each other out at certain frequencies while at other frequencies the sound waves reinforce each, increasing their volume. Instead of a nice smooth flat frequency response you get a curve with dips and peaks, or just one big peak. So it's loud at one particular frequency and lame at others. All you get is one-note boom-boom. That's not good sound.
If you're happy with it then fine. But don't go around telling people it's a good place to put a speaker, or that it'll sound great. Chances are it won't.
If you're happy with it then fine. But don't go around telling people it's a good place to put a speaker, or that it'll sound great. Chances are it won't.
Don't do it. It is in the middle of the car and you will have sound wave cancallations that will reduce the SPL of the sub. This is one of the worst places to put a sub. It needs to go back as far as you are willing to do so. I'd say under the strut bar is a minimun starting point.
Last edited by Icemark; 06-11-04 at 08:55 PM.
06-11-04, 09:06 PM
#6
illegal ninja moves
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come on sxyrxy, you HAD to see that coming...
"subs in bins" + icemark =
lol. Icemark, I wanted to make you an animated gif of Jack swinging that sword so you could just drop it in the thread everytime this topic comes up... but that would be a lot of work
p.s. sorry for making a non-technical post but I couldn't help it.
"subs in bins" + icemark =
lol. Icemark, I wanted to make you an animated gif of Jack swinging that sword so you could just drop it in the thread everytime this topic comes up... but that would be a lot of work
p.s. sorry for making a non-technical post but I couldn't help it.
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06-11-04, 10:25 PM
#8
Ho's and Cadillac Doors
Originally posted by 86GXL
It is NOT Loud and NOT lousy... its just audible enough to get some thump from it..
It is NOT Loud and NOT lousy... its just audible enough to get some thump from it..
That might also be because you are using a bad sub, with an even worse amp.
06-11-04, 11:16 PM
#9
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The most important 3 things that affect in-car bass:woofer,the enclosure(tuned to the car),and where the location of the enclosure.IceMark you cannot compare a sealed system to a bandpass system.The are two different enclosures built for different bandwidths and musical taste.It all also depends on what type of music you listen to in your car.
06-11-04, 11:30 PM
#10
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally posted by Hollywood56
IceMark you cannot compare a sealed system to a bandpass system.The are two different enclosures built for different bandwidths and musical taste.It all also depends on what type of music you listen to in your car.
IceMark you cannot compare a sealed system to a bandpass system.The are two different enclosures built for different bandwidths and musical taste.It all also depends on what type of music you listen to in your car.
That Bandpass produces X bass and Ported enclosures produce Y bass is a fallacy left over from the days of Punch amps, and clueless installers without any enclosure design software. Those types of installers claimed a ported box hit harder than a sealed, or that a band pass was only for Rap.
Of course they were just plain clueless.
Last edited by Icemark; 06-11-04 at 11:33 PM.
06-11-04, 11:57 PM
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Thats not entirely true Mark.Enclosure design software is a good reference but to name installers of yesterday clueless is totally ignorantof you to say.The best installers didn't use software they used their ears.For instance Richard Clark,The Fishman,Mark Faduka,Lou Proni just to name a few.There is a total difference in sound quality with enclosures.For instance sealed enclosures are a low q enclosure with good midbass response but tend to distort at low frequency response due to the tuning frequency.Ported enclosures will be 3 db efficient for the same box size of a sealed and also be able to play 1/3 octave lower and also produces good midbass response as well but will need a subsonic filter to decrease output below the tuning of the enclosure.Bandpass (single) has roughly 3-6 db of output of the sealed enclosure and the size of the enclosure would be little bigger.This design tends to be slow(transient response) due to the speaker not playing in the open enviroment(often needing good midbass upfront). and also often exchanging bandwidth for output.
06-12-04, 12:48 AM
#13
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally posted by Hollywood56
Thats not entirely true Mark.Enclosure design software is a good reference but to name installers of yesterday clueless is totally ignorantof you to say.The best installers didn't use software they used their ears.For instance Richard Clark,The Fishman,Mark Faduka,Lou Proni just to name a few.
Thats not entirely true Mark.Enclosure design software is a good reference but to name installers of yesterday clueless is totally ignorantof you to say.The best installers didn't use software they used their ears.For instance Richard Clark,The Fishman,Mark Faduka,Lou Proni just to name a few.
There is a total difference in sound quality with enclosures.For instance sealed enclosures are a low q enclosure with good midbass response but tend to distort at low frequency response due to the tuning frequency.Ported enclosures will be 3 db efficient for the same box size of a sealed and also be able to play 1/3 octave lower and also produces good midbass response as well but will need a subsonic filter to decrease output below the tuning of the enclosure.Bandpass (single) has roughly 3-6 db of output of the sealed enclosure and the size of the enclosure would be little bigger.This design tends to be slow(transient response) due to the speaker not playing in the open enviroment(often needing good midbass upfront). and also often exchanging bandwidth for output.
See all the varibles are in the set up, not in the enclosue choice. Maybe the sealed will need a bigger chamber, and more power than the vented designs to produce the same output. Or maybe the vented will need a custom Linkwitz Reilly third order crossover to make up for the inherent freq overlap that muddies the sound at 3 db down... all those things are adjustable. The speaker is not. So again, claiming that a bandpass can not sound like a sealed enclosure is just not educated (or perhaps a better word would be uninformed).
06-12-04, 05:18 AM
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hmm im not planning on dropping some huge *** sound system in my car i just got a new 650W amp with alot of features i just want something that sounds good, not a car where my head is gonna hurt everytime i turn up the music. i was thinking along the lines of a really good 10in or something like that. so ive come down the conclusion that the bins are no good to put your subs in, i was starting to think about it too if i just had one sub right behind me as to having one in the back of the car having the bass face twords me rather than just up. it just seems like it would overall sound better in the hatch. i could be wrong but i still want everybody's .02 cent on it and what everybody thinks about it and or your setup thanks
06-12-04, 10:56 AM
#15
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Again:
A little background, I installed for over 17 years, and started way before Richard Clark or the Fishman were in the industry. I created over 20 winning systems for CAN and IASCA judged cars and was voted in the top ten installers twice in the 80's and once in the 90s.
Shops I worked at included the world famous Radioman, StereoVision, Autosonics, and of course Mobileworks, where innovations with fiberglassing, enclosure design, time alignments, plastics molding, studio equipment modified to work in automotive applications and multi density woods were all developed. I retired from the industry 6 years ago, with my status as a MECP being master, a IASCA Judge, and after working to help set up DEI's automotive sound division.
When I was with DEI, I toured the country speaking and teaching on how to install everything from car alarms to award winning car audio systems, as well as was the Technical Liaison between General Motors and DEI.
So needless to say, I know a little about car audio and electronics...
My Sport had a dedicated channel (each speaker had its own amplification channel) 780 watt system, including a 400watt dedicated sub only amp, driving a 12" speaker. The first system to go in that car was in late 87, with several magazine articles and car shows following on just that car and the system in it. By no means was this system a ground pounder. 130dB was as loud as it got, but it was designed for very accurate sound reproduction in an automotive enviroment. (130db is rather wimpy when comparing to some of the 150-160dB car audio systems today).
I tried every possible enclosure design in the bin location. At one point I even used a transmission line system that ran under both sides and then back and forward with the output in the bin area.
See I wanted the bin location to work. It always worked on the SA/FB. Why wouldn't it ever produce decent bass, even in enclosures designed to produce low, loud tight bass, and that in any other car (well except for maybe a mid 90's Accord coupe, or MX-6, which have similar interior structural issues). I told myself it must work; it is just the perfect location.
It is because of the location. Firing upwards, the speaker reflects off of a virtually flat surface, creating a massive standing wave. Time alignment does not work to correct the issue, because of the same reason. Mazda designed that part of the structure of the car, to actually dampen low freq harmonics for the front and back seat passengers (yes in Japan almost every FC coupe has a back seat).
Now tilt the woofer towards the rear more than 25 degrees (or even better place the woofer in the back)and the sound comes back. But let’s face it... tilting the angle of the speaker is pretty impractical unless you are willing to compromise the space being flat.
Now you could get decent mid-bass in that location, but that is considerably higher up in the hearing bandwidth. Most people that do systems with a sub woofer in the bin area tend to run the crossover point very high, to increase the bass level. At best a bit of a band aid. At worst, a considerable handicap to an otherwise decent sounding system. Ideally the sub woofer would only be reproducing under 85Hz (and in a perfect world down to just under 20Hz). In reality most woofers won't even reproduce sound in the bin location under 50hz, even when forcing the Q with extras like equalization, massive amplification, or time alignment.
Now for some people a marginally loud 50hz to 125hz would be fine. But for anyone that has heard a real system, well... they probably would be rather disappointed.
Now as a second part, the bin location unless you build a woofer enclosure that holds the woofer in the area, there are other looses. For example its popular for people to bolt a wooden panel in place (either above or below the bin opening), but the panel is just attached to the fiber plastic bin support. so now you have huge losses just from the support moving back and forth with the vibrations of any speaker mounted to it.
A little background, I installed for over 17 years, and started way before Richard Clark or the Fishman were in the industry. I created over 20 winning systems for CAN and IASCA judged cars and was voted in the top ten installers twice in the 80's and once in the 90s.
Shops I worked at included the world famous Radioman, StereoVision, Autosonics, and of course Mobileworks, where innovations with fiberglassing, enclosure design, time alignments, plastics molding, studio equipment modified to work in automotive applications and multi density woods were all developed. I retired from the industry 6 years ago, with my status as a MECP being master, a IASCA Judge, and after working to help set up DEI's automotive sound division.
When I was with DEI, I toured the country speaking and teaching on how to install everything from car alarms to award winning car audio systems, as well as was the Technical Liaison between General Motors and DEI.
So needless to say, I know a little about car audio and electronics...
My Sport had a dedicated channel (each speaker had its own amplification channel) 780 watt system, including a 400watt dedicated sub only amp, driving a 12" speaker. The first system to go in that car was in late 87, with several magazine articles and car shows following on just that car and the system in it. By no means was this system a ground pounder. 130dB was as loud as it got, but it was designed for very accurate sound reproduction in an automotive enviroment. (130db is rather wimpy when comparing to some of the 150-160dB car audio systems today).
I tried every possible enclosure design in the bin location. At one point I even used a transmission line system that ran under both sides and then back and forward with the output in the bin area.
See I wanted the bin location to work. It always worked on the SA/FB. Why wouldn't it ever produce decent bass, even in enclosures designed to produce low, loud tight bass, and that in any other car (well except for maybe a mid 90's Accord coupe, or MX-6, which have similar interior structural issues). I told myself it must work; it is just the perfect location.
It is because of the location. Firing upwards, the speaker reflects off of a virtually flat surface, creating a massive standing wave. Time alignment does not work to correct the issue, because of the same reason. Mazda designed that part of the structure of the car, to actually dampen low freq harmonics for the front and back seat passengers (yes in Japan almost every FC coupe has a back seat).
Now tilt the woofer towards the rear more than 25 degrees (or even better place the woofer in the back)and the sound comes back. But let’s face it... tilting the angle of the speaker is pretty impractical unless you are willing to compromise the space being flat.
Now you could get decent mid-bass in that location, but that is considerably higher up in the hearing bandwidth. Most people that do systems with a sub woofer in the bin area tend to run the crossover point very high, to increase the bass level. At best a bit of a band aid. At worst, a considerable handicap to an otherwise decent sounding system. Ideally the sub woofer would only be reproducing under 85Hz (and in a perfect world down to just under 20Hz). In reality most woofers won't even reproduce sound in the bin location under 50hz, even when forcing the Q with extras like equalization, massive amplification, or time alignment.
Now for some people a marginally loud 50hz to 125hz would be fine. But for anyone that has heard a real system, well... they probably would be rather disappointed.
Now as a second part, the bin location unless you build a woofer enclosure that holds the woofer in the area, there are other looses. For example its popular for people to bolt a wooden panel in place (either above or below the bin opening), but the panel is just attached to the fiber plastic bin support. so now you have huge losses just from the support moving back and forth with the vibrations of any speaker mounted to it.
Last edited by Icemark; 06-12-04 at 12:01 PM.
06-12-04, 11:07 AM
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Its funny how some people just can't accept that Icemark knows what he's talkign about. It seems that every arguement about the bin location comes back to the same thing, subs don't dound good fired straight up at the flat roof, seems like a fairly easy concept to grasp. besides these cars are made to be driven and subs are heavey and IMHO should be made easy to remove for drag or autocross racing, or even just a fun ride on a back road.
06-12-04, 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by 86GXL
I've got mine in the bins... gives a good clean sound... nothing crazy loud or anything.
I've got mine in the bins... gives a good clean sound... nothing crazy loud or anything.
06-12-04, 03:19 PM
#18
my fc broke
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well my plan was to make a box for the sub. not just have the bin behind the sub. i was going to make a custom box for the sub to fit inside the bin but this is starting to seem like its not worth it
06-12-04, 03:32 PM
#19
Icemark, this may be different, I thought the exact same thing you are describing firing the sub upwards to a very crappy location. AKA ROOF.
I was thinking of putting a 10 inch sub on the front part of the box facing the passengers seat. what is your take on this?
Of course it would have a box, the bin would not be the enclosure it would have it's own dedicated enclosure.
I was thinking of putting a 10 inch sub on the front part of the box facing the passengers seat. what is your take on this?
Of course it would have a box, the bin would not be the enclosure it would have it's own dedicated enclosure.
06-12-04, 03:53 PM
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When I had a subwoofer in my FC, I custom built a bandpass enclosure that fit between the strut towers and the spare tire... It had a 12" sub, two 3" ports (3" deep) on the high side, and one 3" port (7.5" deep) on the low side... The ports fired straight forward, and it obviously didn't matter what alignment the sub was in.
Most people thought I had two 15's in it when I had it up loud, and because I carpeted it in matching grey like my interior, you couldn't really tell what it was.
Most people thought I had two 15's in it when I had it up loud, and because I carpeted it in matching grey like my interior, you couldn't really tell what it was.
06-12-04, 03:55 PM
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If I was going to do it all over again, however, I would have gotten two 10" Solobarics like someone recommended above and put them where the spare tire was... Take out the factory carpet and replace it with acoustically transparent grey carpet... Mount the amplifier under the storage bins... Total stealth, and you still have a hatch area.
06-12-04, 04:40 PM
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Mark, first off I never heard of you as an installer.Second thats your opinion.Third cad programs are good to build enclosures and crossovers.But these programs don't account acoustic transfer function in a car and its losses and gains.I worked for Jl audio here in miramar so I know my stuff when it comes to acoustics.I was around doing this for home and auto long before you.This what makes these forums suck sometimes.Its people like you that think they know everything and that everyone else is wrong.I'm not even going to waste my time with this forum anymore.Just admit when your wrong dude and untwist your panties already!
06-12-04, 09:53 PM
#25
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally posted by Hollywood56
Mark, first off I never heard of you as an installer.Second thats your opinion.Third cad programs are good to build enclosures and crossovers.But these programs don't account acoustic transfer function in a car and its losses and gains.I worked for Jl audio here in miramar so I know my stuff when it comes to acoustics.I was around doing this for home and auto long before you.This what makes these forums suck sometimes.Its people like you that think they know everything and that everyone else is wrong.I'm not even going to waste my time with this forum anymore.Just admit when your wrong dude and untwist your panties already!
Mark, first off I never heard of you as an installer.Second thats your opinion.Third cad programs are good to build enclosures and crossovers.But these programs don't account acoustic transfer function in a car and its losses and gains.I worked for Jl audio here in miramar so I know my stuff when it comes to acoustics.I was around doing this for home and auto long before you.This what makes these forums suck sometimes.Its people like you that think they know everything and that everyone else is wrong.I'm not even going to waste my time with this forum anymore.Just admit when your wrong dude and untwist your panties already!
And it still sounds like you are missing a few concepts. First, if you don't take the cars acoustics into play when designing a system, you will always have a poor system, no matter what quality speaker you use. I am sure you know (being in the industry longer than me) that speaker location is a compromise between three things, design of the structure of the car, location and type of the speaker in relation to the other speakers in the system, and esthectics.
But what are you really arguing??? That a good cad program works??? Or that the bins suck for a speaker location (which again is what this thread is about), or that a woofer can sound the same in a sealed box with enough volumn and tweaking, as a band pass??
If it helps I am sorry you got your panties in a bunch.
Last edited by Icemark; 06-12-04 at 10:22 PM.