iluvrx7z

Well as my one month project on my car rolls into its 7th month now, everything seems to be hooked up right. I did a BNR stage III turbo upgrade, 4 720cc injectors, and a bigger fuel pump.

Got the car started about a month ago, only after being pulled around the neighborhood once, but since then it started up on its own a few times, although I never got the chance to let it run for more than 5 minutes due to a really bad exhaust leak, but the last time I tried to start it, it was flooded BAD!

Well I now fixed that exhaust leak and when I took the turbo out I noticed the exhaust manifold filled to the brim with gas, well I cleaned all that out, put everything back and installed a fuel cut out switch...went to start the car...no dice

Was pulled around the neighborhood....no dice. I figured the spark plugs might have kicked it and ordered a new set, what do you guys think? I would appreciate ANY feedback! Thanks in advance!

Dan

scathcart

No fuel control for the bigger injectors? I'd say you've fouled your plugs.

Wankel7

Wow, that is a at of fuel in that car. Have you done the fuel pump rewire?

Also, what year car is it? I am assuming if it is a 89-91 you have the fuel injector resisters installed?

James

dr0x

Having no fuel management is fouling your plugs imo. Get that piggy on a wideband w/ a s-afc.

scathcart

Pull the plugs and take a look at them. Easy enough to tell.

iluvrx7z

Sorry I didn't include this info...I also had the ecu remapped and had the injector size changed. Although over the phone they told me that they couldn't dial in anything higher than 680cc? I believe. I knew I'd be running rich but I'd hoped it'd be ok for now. When I recieved my computer back the writeup stated injectors at 720cc so I dunno what the deal is exactly. I did purchase a s-afc off of ebay but got ripped for my money! So untill I have another 300 bucks to spare, its gonna stay the way it is. Does this information change anything or does it still look like the plugs? Thanks for all the replys!

Dan

iluvrx7z

P.S. its an 87, no fuel pump rewire (yet)

Ryde _Or_Die

Plugs are cheap so just change them anyways. If you want to really know pull them and tell us what they look like.

iluvrx7z

bump

HAILERS

Well, it started once. So its got fire. I'd buy and install two LEAD plugs(no need to get the trails). Then I'd make me a fuel cut switch, even a temporary one would be fine. Crude is good. Then kill the fuel pump with the switch or disconnect the fuel pump at the pump.

Knowing that a new engine will most likely have low compression for a while and will flood easily is why I'd do this.

Buy a can of starter fluid. Spray into the air snorkel for about one to two seconds. Start the car with the fuel disabled. If indeed the electrical is good it will fire up for a varooom second. Do it a couple of times. Then the next time flip the fuel cut switch to on and keep it running for a hour or so till the apex seals end pieces are broken free and you get some more compression.

Beat waiting around til the three hundred bucks becomes available. And you'll get some idea of how the engine turned out. Just my three cents. I couldn't bear having it just sit there.

REmember to NOT keep the engine running with starter fluid. It will make the engine knock if you persist.

By the way.....if there's someone out there that does not or have not ever heard KNOCK, do this. Get the lawnmower out and start it. Rev it up and spray some starter fluid into the intake while reving it. With a little luck you'll destroy the engine and not have to mow next year. But you'll hear the rattle of knock. I've done this and have yet to kill the darn mower, but I'm persistent and will succeed someday and be mower free.

iluvrx7z

Hailers, and everyone else thanks for the advice! It did start once, heck it started at least ten times before I took the turbo back out to fix the leak...I already ordered the trailing though oh well, they are 15 years old, doesn't hurt to throw in a new set right? I did hook up a fuel cut switch, I tried it when trying to start the car but it didn't work.

Now I have a question, which may seem kinda dumb but I don't have the snorkel anymore due to the cone intake, I would see no problem spraying it directly onto the filter right?

I really can't take the car just sitting there, honestly my whole driving experiance has been crap driving around this suv garbage. I was only supposed to have the car down for a month and somehow 7 have gone by. All my friends and family have lost faith in me...but I haven't! Once again thanks for all the replys, I will post back with the results when the plugs come in!

Dan

HAILERS

Yeah. Just in the intake filter. Just remember that the one thing that you don't wanna do .......is keep spraying to keep the engine running until the can runs dry.

If you have two good lead plugs, and the fuel pump off, the engine will start. If it does not, then its time to look at the electrical side of things.

If it won't start with starter fluid, then you don't wanna keep cranking the starter and wearing it out. Go for it.

iluvrx7z

Oh my lord it didn't work!!! I was 100% sure the car was going to start and it didn't. Now I am really panicing (sp?)

I got my new spark plugs in today, this was my procedure:

Take out leading plugs

Leave them out and crank motor a few times, heard what sounded to me very strong swooshes, didn't put my finger up to it though

Placed in new leads, plugged the wires back in.

Sprayed starting fluid on the filter

Cut the fuel via fuel cut switch

Cranked and no go, more starter fluid, no go, gas on...no go, not even a vroom

I DID have it started before I took the turbo out again to replace the gasket, the manifold was filled with gas that I cleaned out. Now my old man is trying to force me to bring the car to the dealer!!! he wants it out of his garage.

I really need help, I am very worried and need my car on the road. Any one have any input?? Thanks in advance!

Dan

HAILERS

If it did not start by spraying starter fluid, with new plugs......then the car has no spark at all and or the timing is so far off its unreal.

You did not mess with the cas and timing, at least I did not read that part. So back to basics. Pull the plugs out. Place the spark plug wires near the chassis and then spin the engine. If they spark........then I'm just as lost as you are. Only way the car wouldn't start in that scenario is if the cas has been turned way out of sync.

I woulda bet money that car would have started. Write back about the spark or lack of.

iluvrx7z

I'm at a loss too, I did not touch the cas at all. The only timing change thats possible is the reprogramming of the computer. I sent it out to E.L. Prototypes. I, as well, would have bet money that it was gonna start, I mean it started before and all, only problem I had was a crazy exhaust leak that prevented me from letting the engine run for too long without have the fire dept called.

That is all fixed now, I'd have exhaust gas even come out when cranking and now that doesn't happen so I consider it fixed.

I forgot to mention the condition of the old plugs...

The old plugs were covered in gunk! where the grooves are on the top (where the actual spark is to occur) was covered in a thick gunk (for lack of a better word) I looked at them and thought to myself no wonder it didn't start. I thought I had found the culprit.

I have heard of putting atf or mmo in the leading holes, just a few teaspoons, to help out but I am hessitant towards trying it...Man I am at a loss now, I will go check now if I have enough light to check for spark. Everyone wish me luck!

Dan

iluvrx7z

Just checked for spark and, well I don't know if this is good news or bad news but it had a very strong spark...I really don't know what to make of this. I never touched the timing or the cas nor do I really know how to inspect/adjust it...

Plus I am unsure how I'd adjust it with the ecu upgrade thats supposed to change it. Well needless to say I am rather nervous now, I need to get this car running to save it from the dealer or my dad's "rotary" mechanic, some dude he met that says he has fixed a whopping 2! Please help!!

Thanks

Dan

Amur_

Fuel, spark and compression = running engine.

But part of compression is having the rotors lubricated.

When the engine flooded, all that gas would have 'washed' the oil from the rotors (and wound up in the oil pan.)

Change your oil. Put a fairly heavy weight in there, (20W50) something that will hopefully hold up a little better/longer to gas dilution.

Now do the atf trick, only use something thicker than ATF if you can:


Additional food for thought:

HAILERS

Well thats good that you have spark. If the car ran at sometime and you have not touched the cas, then I'd leave that alone.

You said it started several times prior to having to reinstall the turbo gasket. Now there's a possibility that you have a large air leak. Like the duct from the afm to the turbo having a end off. Check both large ducts from the intercooler being on. Plug installed on the afm. I still find it strange the car did not start by spraying starter fluid in the intake. Even a god awful badly drenched and washed off rotors will start with a spray of starter fluid.

So I give up. Follow the post above me and see what happens. There's something real basic wrong here and I have not a clue from here.

Amur_

Yes and no.

I was helping a local 7 owner try to get her flooded 7 going this past fall (remember my 'trying to ID two wires' thread that you and Icemark helped so much with? And thanx again for that, btw - you two are awesome!

Anyway, out of desperation we turned to starter fluid. The motor would fire for a second or two but never beyond that. We tried unflooding and then starter fluid (modest doses thru the spark plug holes) for hours. I was ready blow the damn car up by the time we called it quits.

We didn't try to push start it b/c I didn't want to use my own 7 (didn't want to **** up the bumper) and she didn't want to use her car. In retrospect... oh, well.

So here's my suggestion for the next starting attempt (now that I've been through some of this misery myself):

- get a full can of carb cleaner and a lighter and set them aside.

- get a 2nd car, running, and jumper the batteries (remember to start at the pos terminal on the 'dead' battery -your 7's- and work your way back in a circle. pos dead, pos source, neg source, neg dead. Don't do it this way and the jumper may not work and you'll flatten your 7's battery.) Hooking this up now will give your 7's battery a chance to recharge/top-up after your previous start attempts.

- pull all the plugs. Have one person crank the engine (with the fuel cut off!) and another watch the plug holes. Mist (stinking of fuel) should be blown out of the holes. If it doesn't, than rather than a flooding problem you now have a fuel delivery problem. We'll talk about this in a sec.

- so there's the mist blasting out. Keep cranking the engine (for no longer than 15 seconds at a time, and giving your starter motor 20-30 second breathers between attempts) until your observer says there isn't any more mist coming out. Be patient - this could take quite a while if the engine is really badly flooded. Be prepared to be really pissed off, but make yourself be patient!

- No more mist. Now take the plugs, one at time, and tap out the ends. Meaning take a plug and tap the business end against your wrist (put a rag over your wrist first - both so you can see what comes out of the plug and so the plug won't be banged too hard - you don't want to damage it inside.) If the motor was flooded, you should see gas and little black bits on the rag. Keep tapping and checking until nothing comes out.

- now take the carb cleaner and spray it into the end of the plug. You're trying to 'wash' out the fuel and whatever else (carbon) is in there. A few seconds of spray is lots. Tap out the plug again (to get the CC out.) Now take the lighter and hold it up to the end of the plug. You want to try to burn the CC off so you can use the plug again right away. Tap and spray every plug.

- You've got a choice here. Put some atf/oil in the plug holes or spray the starter fluid in the plug holes. I don't think that doing both would be a good idea since I expect that the starter fluid would wash the atf/oil away. Or at least mix with it and not ignite as readily as we'd like it to. Whichever you choose, put the Trailing plugs (upper ones) back in before you do it. Then put the Leading plugs in after and hook everything up.

- start it up! Make sure the fuel is cut-off. When/if, the engine fires/catches, flick the fuel back on. All of this may take a couple of tries as you get a feel for how the motor is responding to the starter fluid/use of the fuel cut-off switch. Be patient!

No fuel delivery...

HAILERS, didn't you have a write-up recently on isolating and testing the fuel injectors? I just went looking for it and couldn't find it.

Another quickie thing to check is whether your fuel pump is sending go-juice at all. Find the rubber line that goes from the fuel filter to the engine. Disconnect it at the engine end. Have someone turn the key to start for one second. The line should spew gas. If it doesn't, either your fuel filter is clogged or your fuel pump is either dead or not getting power...

There's a lot to do here. Good luck!

iluvrx7z

Once again I want to say thank you to everyone for helping me out.

I know ATF trick questions have been asked a countless number of times but do you suggest doing the full ATF trick as in 24hrs or just putting a few tsps in the lower spark plug holes, or anywhere else for that matter? With all the evil things I have heard of the ATF trick it really scares me.

I haven't been able the try the above methods yet but I will tomorrow or the next day at the latest.

When I pulled the spark plugs out to replace them I did crank the motor with the spark plugs out, however no mist was visible (unless my old man is going blind which isn't ruled out)

Also when I pulled the new plugs out I did not see much gas on them, which I guess is also ok since I had the fuel cut off.

I am doubtful of a fuel delivery problem being as how the car was soo flooded, unless its just toooo much fuel

As far as an intake leak I have double checked everything and it all seems to be connected well.

I am hoping at this point that its the compression, or lack there of, since the motor spins REALLY fast with the starter, this is a sign of low compression correct?

Please let me know what you guys think, I am stalling as much as possible from sending my car to this tree-shade mechanic as I don't trust anyone with my seven besides me (and the guru forum members of course)

Thanks

Dan

rxse7en

Can you get your hands on a spare TII ECU? I'm not gonna jump in on HAILERS input—he's the man—I just wanted to make sure that it may not be the "reprogrammed" ECU that could be buggering the works.

B

Amur_

AFAIC, you're welcome. I like to think that you reap what you sew, and that I'll get detailed help those times that I need it myself.

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I know ATF trick questions have been asked a countless number of times but do you suggest doing the full ATF trick as in 24hrs or just putting a few tsps in the lower spark plug holes, or anywhere else for that matter? With all the evil things I have heard of the ATF trick it really scares me.

What evil things, other than massive amounts of smoke? There are two reasons (that I'm aware of) for using ATF - trying to dissolve carbon and trying to restore compression. I'm pretty sure carbon isn't your prob, and there are better choices for trying to restore compression (meaning lube the rotors) as above...

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I haven't been able the try the above methods yet but I will tomorrow or the next day at the latest.

Keep us posted!

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When I pulled the spark plugs out to replace them I did crank the motor with the spark plugs out, however no mist was visible (unless my old man is going blind which isn't ruled out)

Also when I pulled the new plugs out I did not see much gas on them, which I guess is also ok since I had the fuel cut off.

I am doubtful of a fuel delivery problem being as how the car was soo flooded, unless its just toooo much fuel

I'd urge you to not rule it out. While you've been going through all this who knows if some chunk of snot or whatever has become lodged in a line, or if the fuel pump is failing or has quit or what. Use the clues you have. If the engine was flooding like b4, there'd be gas everywhere. There isn't. So either the flooding prob haas mysteriously cleared up or maybe there's very little or no fuel getting through at all. Find out. You've been told how.

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As far as an intake leak I have double checked everything and it all seems to be connected well.

Locating a vac leak is virtually impossible without having the motor running... Checking the AFM as described is one way of doing it without going through one or more cans of CC.

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I am hoping at this point that its the compression, or lack there of, since the motor spins REALLY fast with the starter, this is a sign of low compression correct?

Don't know.

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Please let me know what you guys think, I am stalling as much as possible from sending my car to this tree-shade mechanic as I don't trust anyone with my seven besides me (and the guru forum members of course)

What part of Conneticut are you in?

iluvrx7z

I live in Bethel which is right next to Danbury. I will not rule out all the things as you have described, its best to keep all possibilities open. You are right, there should be gas everywhere, there WAS before, but now isn't before is it? lol I don't know if that made any sense.

Anyways I'll try all those things and get back to you guys, if not I guess it goes to my dad's mechanic. Hey I could be wrong, he may know a lot about rotaries...

As for a spare TII ECU I have thought about that a lot, I do not have a spare one all though when I went to sleep last night I literally prayed I did. When I first had starting problems I thought of that as the culprit but I don't know...I wish I had a spare just to try but I'll cross that bridge once I get there I guess.

Thanks for all the input guys, let me know if anything else comes to mind.

Dan

dr0x

300 bucks gets you a new s-afc buddy.

iluvrx7z

Yes I know 300 gets me a new one

I had actually paid 275 to get a used one off of ebay,with shipping, and the dude never sent it to me, after repeated e-mails and attempted communication, I was officially ripped off

I'd have a new one right now if I could afford it, well worth the money IMO, and I still plan on getting one...anyone selling an S-AFC cheap? Like real cheap? lol or maybe I shouldn't take the gamble? Ah well.

Dan