Mykl

I was being sarcastic. I was gone for two months, come back, and there's yet another V-8 conversion thread open.

Node

iTrader: (1)

Like an LT1 isn't torquey?

ChrisV

Usually the FC is used because either A) they already own the car (which was my case) and it died, or B) the car they used was bought dirt cheap. It's easy to find a sub-$1000 FC, but a sub $10k FD will usually be wrecked, which destroys teh possibility of having a good chassis. I know there's a guy on the boards with a FD V8 conversion, and his isn't being done cheaply. And the only reason I'd convert an FD is if a dead one was handed to me.

An engine swap (and this goes for any swap, from the V8 FC to rotary conversions in British cars) should be cost effective before being contemplated. It should allow more performance for teh dollars spent. That changes from individual to individual. If you have a good running car, and you want to swap an engine you don't have, or can't get cheaply (or have to pay someone a buttoad of money to convert if you can't), then an engine swap is probably a bad idea. If OTOH, you have a car and an engine, and the cost to convert will be minimal vs rebuilding the stock engine, then a swap makes financial and performance sense. Especialy when talking about a mass produced automobile like the FC.

Brad asked if it would be a good swap to put a rotary in his Cougar, as it's dead. If he could make as much or more power (and you have to keep torque bands in mind) with the rotary to move a 3600 lb car around, and do it for less money than rebuilding the dead big block, then it would be a good swap. In his case, however, a factory rebuild of the big block could run $1500 (all parts new, from someplace like Summit or PAW), while the cost of making a 13B put out 350-400 lb ft of torque would be considerably higher. Along with the fabrication of parts to swap the engine in.
Now, a turbo 13B in a '65 Mustang might be pretty cool, as the mustang weighs in at right about 2700 with the 6 cyl... that would make a converted car weigh about the same as a TII, so it should scoot quite nicely.

In the FD, the twin turbo 13B weighs quite a bit. IFa V8 fit, the car was cheap enough, and the engine was cheap enough, teh swap might make sense. $3800 for a crate 350 that makes 345 hp and 360 lb ft of torque. With a 6 sp, and teh conversion parts, you could easily reach $10k for the conversion, without modding the engine. While you would have nearly 350 hp, and more torque, the cost is pretty high considering the potential of the TT rotary UNLESS the rotary is so dead that it would cost more to install a new one and build it to that power level. I don't know. I don't necessarily see any advantage to an FD V8 swap, like the FC V8 swap can have.

I like the rotary too. I've had many over the years, from an R100, to an RX2, a couple RX3s, and a couple RX7s. I've put rotaries into other cars (an MG midget and a TR7). I'm hoping that the Renesis engine takes hold, and a whole new generation of rotary powered coupes shows up on our shores. I wish people would stop thinking that because I swapped a V8 into my last RX7 that I somehow hate or don't understand rotary engines.

Felix Wankel

Yeah but with an LT1 you get a T56 6 speed tranny that can actually HOLD torque

Shamrock1054

Aside from the V8/ rotary debate, I think the two V8 rex swaps pictured on this thread are very well done, 1st rate craftmanship. The motors look like they belong there. Very nice conversions.


Gregg

jimlab

Heavier: My 20B weighed 561 lbs. on its pallet, with the stock cast iron exhaust and turbo manifolds. One of my LT1 crate motors weighed 478 lbs. with a bunch of extra parts thrown in. I'll have the weight of my final engine when they ship it, but suffice it to say that the 20B is no lightweight in stock trim.

Longer: Most certainly. The LT1 mounts far enough back in the chassis that the shorter T56 lines up with the stock shifter opening. The Ford would also be a good choice because of its front mounted distributor, like the late-model ('92-'97) LT1/LT4. The steering rack remains in the stock location. With the 20B, you have two choices... cut the firewall, or move the steering rack. PFS is the only one who has modified the firewall, all other 20B cradles that I've heard of require moving the steering rack down, introducing bump steer.

Fabrication: The LT1 is a bolt-in with the exception of the wiring and exhaust, which are easily accomplished. The stock GM PCM (powertrain control module) can be used without any problems, and can be programmed with a piece of software called LT1 Edit (www.carputing.com) which allows full modification of fuel and spark maps, changing differential gearing and rear tire size to calibrate the speedometer output, and other features, including logging. With the 20B, you have to either find a stock computer (non-modifiable) or run an expensive aftermarket system. The install base for LT1 Edit is huge, the number of people who can help you with programming for a 20B is very, very small by comparison.

While you can probably install a 20B for around $10-15k if you can do almost all of the work yourself, I believe it's fair to say that on average, the conversion costs a great deal more, in the range of $20-25k, and $30k+ if you drop your car off with PFS or Pettit Racing.

Actually, in stock trim, the 20B was rated at 350 horsepower. Bumping it to 500+ requires a lot more than just an intake and exhaust and raising the boost.

It requires an aftermarket fuel computer, because the 20B ECU doesn't self-tune any better than the 13B-REW does. It will require turbo modifications or replacement, because the stock 20B cartridges aren't efficient enough. And it will likely require larger injectors, a fuel pump upgrade, and a large front mount intercooler is a necessity, since there's no room once you raise the radiator vertical.

There's nothing easy about 500+ hp with a 20B, that's a myth perpetuated by people who have only heard numbers thrown around and haven't done the research to find out exactly what would be required. And once you're all done, you have an engine with all the same weaknesses that the original 13B-REW had, and now you've pushed it beyond the stock power rating, increasing the chances that something may go wrong.

On the other hand, you could easily (and I do mean easily) put a cam, a throttle body, a set of lifters, and a set of ported heads on a stock late-model LT1 small block and be very near 475 horsepower (~400 RWHP) for far less money and with greater reliability. There are literally hundreds of people doing precisely that right now with Camaros across the United States. There's nothing even remotely undrivable about a 400 RWHP Camaro, and the drivability can only improve (as well as performance) in a car which weighs more than 600 lbs. less when completed.

Define "a LOT less money". To make 400+ RWHP horsepower with a 13BT or 13B-REW, you'll need a single turbo kit, aftermarket fuel control, a large intercooler, more and/or larger injectors, a revised fuel system, boost control, and a number of other things on top of the stock car. Take a stock 3rd gen. RX-7 and get to 400+ RWHP with the stock 13B-REW and you'll have spent in the range of $10-15k easily. Single turbo kits and aftermarket engine management aren't exactly cheap for the RX-7.

Spend $10k on a V8 conversion and not only will you have a completed conversion, but you'll have about $3,500-4,500 left over to invest in modifications, And that includes a Borg Warner T56 6-speed, a vast improvement over the OEM 5-speed in terms of power handling. $4000 would buy a supercharger setup that could put you over 400 RWHP, or you could save the weight and invest in NA power and with the mods mentioned previously, also achieve more than 400 RWHP. The difference is that you'll have a very reliable engine, and the low end torque difference between the two powerplants means that you'll probably have a quicker car, all things considered.

Before anyone gets the idea that this is a done deal, though, you should consider that like the 20B, how much a V8 conversion costs (besides the readily-available kit) depends on how cheaply you can find your powertrain (on average, an LT1 *with* the T56 will cost you about $1,000 less than just a rebuildable 20B engine), and how much of the work you can do yourself. It can be done for $5,000-6,000 without stumbling on to lucky deals if you can do the work yourself, but overall cost may vary of course, depending on choices you make.

I don't believe that a V8 is as light as a 13B, but I do believe that you can fairly easily match the weight of a stock RX-7 even after an iron-block Chevy V8 conversion, without a great deal of difficulty, if that's important to you. At worst, you'll see a small increase in weight.

Bill Hagen weighed his conversion on a digital truck scale and it came out at around 3,000 lbs. with 100 lbs. of ballast in the back. Remove the ballast, and at roughly 2,900 lbs. his car is about as light as a Touring model with an automatic transmission. (2,923 lbs.) Get rid of the LT1 cast iron exhaust manifolds and save another 30 lbs. or so, and he's in the Touring 5M range (2,862 lbs.).

I don't think that it's unreasonable to expect that you can come close to stock weight with a V8 conversion, and I definitely don't think it's misleading to say that for the same power levels mentioned, that you'll probably end up spending more on a rotary than you will on the V8 to reach 400 RWHP. I also think that it's fair to say that you gain reliability, both in the engine and the transmission. But eventually it comes down to personal preference and what you want under the hood of your car. I totally understand someone who wants to keep their car rotary-powered, but on the other hand, the V8 conversion is a very compelling option for those who don't.

jimlab

Not to mention a few you missed.

Apparently people still aren't prepared to admit that the rotary can be unreliable and that there can be a great deal of reliabilty gained by installing a V8 in the car. And they're definitely not prepared to sit idly by while someone does whatever they want to with their own car...

We have to have a big fuss any time someone mentions it. Don't you know there's heresey being committed against the Rotary Gods??

Mykl

Well, you know where I stand on it. It's amazing how predictible this conversation is.

RICE RACING

Feeling is mutual budy !

I have had to take people like you saying that rotaries are unreliable and that my experiences are false.

Sorry for name calling, but if people insist on putting "my" engines down then .....

RICE RACING

There will always be a problem, when V8 people come on here and start saying that what I am doing is not as cheap or reliable as their particular V8 transplant.

This is the issue. By all means come on and tells us about youre experience, but do not come on here and tell me that youre V8 set up is superior to a rotary unless you want to look like an idiot for putting down thae VAST majority who own RX7's who hate the thought of a V8 being put into one of the most charasmatic and unique cars ever made.

So it is simple, I will leave you V8 guys alone, so long as you do not come on here talking trash every time about how much cheaper/more reliable your V8 is, or worse still start putting down or questioning experiences like mine where I have perfect reiability, low cost and excellent fuel mileage for my engine power.

RICE RACING

Well, after reading all the post here I just wan't to say this to some of you guys. The following is the parts list and cost "complete" for a 600BHP 13B Turbo engine.

Keep this in mine, Rebuild time is 100000km or 60000miles
10% racing & 90% street driving

Average cost for rebuild is $1300Aus (inc labour)


Engine (ported, blueprinted) $4500
ecu $1800
fuel system & ignition $2800
IC $1200
turbo system (waste gate, manifold, turbo) $4500
clutch system $2000
rebuild gearbox $1000
engine mapping $300

This is a grand total of $18100 Aus which is around $9500 US
FOR TOTALY RELIABLE "NEW" 13B TURBO SET UP.

I challenge ANYONE to show me a V8 (naturally aspirated) that will make this BHP, be as reliable and cost less than double the amount (in Australia anyway)! Let alone match the weight or be as drivable ! And please keep in mind this a comparison to 350 Chev "small block" n/a...You will find out how long valve springs last when you use the cams and revs needed to make 600bhp in n/a trim, I know from experience ! Also the cost (here anyway) is unreal once you start using the "good" gear needed to be reliable at his power level.

That is $9500 US....goodluck !

kabooski

well rice
I'm a rotor head
since 87

but you can get a 540HP N/A V8
for
$7,495.95 US//$14,476.09 AUD



Technical
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Specifications:
* 4-bolt main block
* 4130 forged 4.00 in. crankshaft
* Manley Sportsmaster 4340 forged connecting rods
* Wiseco 4.500 in. forged pistons
* Speed Pro piston rings
* Federal Mogul engine bearings
* Manley true roller timing chain
* Crane solod lift camshaft (256 degrees duration at .050 in., and .579 in. lift)
* Speed Pro lifters
* Merlin "Grumpy Jenkins Series" 310cc rectangular, cast iron, cylinder heads
* Manley 2.250 in. intake/1.880 in. exhaust severe duty valves
* Hardcore roller rockers
* Manley chromemoly pushrods
* Merlin chrome valve covers
* Merlin aluminum single plane intake manifold
* Holley 870 cfm carb
* HEI distributor
* Merlin 8mm ignition wires
* Accel U-groove spark plugs
* CNC steel harmonic balancer
* Milodon 6 qt. steel oil pan
* Speed Pro oil pump
* Fel-Pro gaskets
* Dyno sheet
* ARP and Manley hardware


*******Ford Racing 600HP******
514 cubic inches with 600 horsepower on pump gas! This is the biggest, baddest blue-oval you can get from Ford Racing. It all starts with a 460 2-bolt main short block with a nodular iron stroker crank, H-beam connecting rods with premium bolts, forged aluminum dished pistons, mechanical roller lifter camshaft, multi-index timing chain, 4130 one-piece pushrods, HD oil pump and pickup, dual sump oil pan, valve covers, aluminum front cover and water pump, high performance harmonic balancer, flexplate, spark plugs and single plane Dominator flange intake manifold. Included with this assembly are: Ford Racing ''Cobra-Jet'' aluminum cylinder heads, which yield 9.8:1 compression ratio and flow significantly better than production 460 heads and feature a Jon Kaase port design. Combustion chamber volume is 72cc. Ford Racing ''Cobra-Jet'' valve train kit which includes dual springs, retainers, keepers, seals and premium stainless steel swirl polished valves (2.20/Intake, 1.76/exhaust) with undercut stems. High performance solid roller mechanical camshaft which provides significant horsepower increases above 3500 rpm and good low-end torque. Valve lift is .647'' intake and .647'' exhaust. Duration at .050'' is 254 degrees intake and 258 degrees exhaust.


514 cu. in.
600 HP @ 6250 RPM and 590 ft/lbs. of torque @ 4750 RPM
9.8:1 compression ratio
Cast nodular iron 4.300'' stroker crank
Eagle H-beam connecting rods wiht ARP bolts
Ford Racing/TRW forged aluminum dished pistons with full floating pins
Mechanical roller lifter camshaft with .647'' lift, 254° Intake and 258° Exhaust Duration @ .050'' Lobe Lift
Ford Racing single plane ''Victor Jr.'' intake manifold (requires Dominator carburetor)
Ford Racing ''Cobra Jet'' aluminum heads with 2.20 intake, 1.76 exhaust valves
Ford Racing valve train with 4130 one-piece push rods
1.73:1 ratio aluminum roller rocker arms

$ 8160.99 US//$15,757.29 AUD

----------------------------
BUT I would choose a 600HP Rotary over a 600HP V8 any day!!

look how big in CU you have to get to have 600HP V8
rotarys will ALWAYS put V8's to shame in HP*CU
600HP out of a 1.3 Liter engine is amazing

RICE RACING

Nice work, now lets find a 350 Chev price ! I bet (know) it is ALOT more.....we are not dumb enough to believe that a V8 "crate" motor will deliver the goods, it simply cannot !

We will see

HA HAHA HAHAHAHA , They would be VERY economical as well

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Whens the last time you saw a 600HP rotary that was N/A and not running nitrous? I can't imagine many. However, getting that from a v8 can be done for a hell of a lot less than you posted. My daily drive has about 400hp (14.17 quartermiles) and I get around 16-18mpg out of it, and it's a big block chevy.

RICE RACING

You do not get it do you ?

5.8lt+ v's a 2.616lt is not a fair comparison !

I have seen 4 rotor 13B engines, made for $10000Aus, that make that power (600bhp) from ONLY 5.2LT NOT over 8LT as in the prehistoric V8's case ! (on 87octane pump gas)

Compare, the price difference !



The argument is this, I can, and MANY people can make 13B turbo rotaries that are more economical, lighter, cheaper, &more drivable than ANY N/A 350 small block....end of story !

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Man, I wish you would buy stuff from me, cuz whoever the hell you're buying from SURE the hell makes a nice buck off it. I've seen 327's with over 500hp that have sold for quite a lot less than $6,000.

RICE RACING

I have a friend with a fuel Injected high compression Bridge port 13B that makes 324BHP with full exhaust! and has the same fuel economy but it is much much faster !, The engine price with injection was $5000Aus or around $2450US !

He has done over 80000km (50000miles) on the engine, it does 12 sec quater miles and has a top speed over 170MPH !

When I pulled the engine apart for inspection and a freshen up the grand cost was $650 ($200 in parts "gaskets etc") & the rest in labour.

The engine weight complete (long assembly with clutch) is 108kg or 238lb. I am sure it would destroy your big "crock" block powered car

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

First off, don't assume, my big 'crock' powered 'car' is a truck, assumptions are bad. Secondly, as you can see by the other v8 converted rx7's, it doesn't add as much weigh as everyone thinks. Third, if my truck wasn't a peice of **** automatic I'm sure it could do a lot better. 400hp for $1,000. 80,000 miles on it and no problems short of replacing the distributor cap rotor plugs & plug wires.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Oh, by the way, I won't even bother mentioning torque, let's see your 13BT haul 4,500lbs that quickly. As far as reliability, what happens when you're on a road trip and your car breaks down and you need a part, which you think they will have, my rust old crap part, or your nice shiney rotar-powered part? My bet is, I'll be on my way sooner

RICE RACING

Well, we are still waiting to see a "mysterious" 350 n/a chev that will make 600BHP with the economy of a 13B for the same price that will last as long or do as many miles.

I know why we have not seen it yet. Because it does not exist ! Not even for double the price !

RICE RACING

That is all most V8 guys are, is ALL TALK "torque" and NO ACTION !

RICE RACING

Again TALK is cheap, I can make over 5000NM with just my leg on long bar, does not mean I have any POWER.

POWER is what count's not he amount of TALK you have, you need to go back to school !

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

No action? I just told you I have an automatic 400hp v8 hauling 4,500lbs that gets 17mpg, what else do you want me to say here? No action, last rx7 I raced ended up pushing it home...

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

As was once said, knowledge is power, and where would knowledge be without communication?

You also missed my question about reliability. Truth is, it's a lot easier to find someone to work on a v8 over a rotary. Don't get me wrong, I'm fascinated by rotary, but I'm tired of all the v8 bashing.

RICE RACING

You do not need to say anything anymore !