Skeptic of Banjo bolt mod
02-02-05, 06:40 PM
#76
I wish I was driving!
Originally Posted by scheistermeister
maybe ive forgotten because i havent read the whole post in a few days but werent you saying that doing this mod (maybe it was someone else) will make you run either rich or lean? which a wideband would show.
No current wideband technogoly is able to meter each sepearate combustion event, which is what is affected by a lack of pulsation dampner.
It only takes one lean combustion event to kill a motor. But hey... if you'd like to put unnecessary risk of your engine and cause damage to your fuel system in order to save $150, its up to you.
02-02-05, 07:20 PM
#77
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally Posted by Maxthe7man
My stock na still has its original pd, and its going to stay that way, when it leaks, it will get a new one
02-02-05, 07:36 PM
#78
XBL** Ownicus
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This is a topic I have been thinking over since my car is over the 100k mark and when I last checked the PD a couple of weeks ago, the screw had come loose. 
Since then I carry a fire extiguisher in my passenger seat and check for the odor when i pull the car into the garage every night.
I have definate plans on just swapping the PD with a banjo bolt (I don't plan on running RETed's fancy setup right now) and leave it at that. I own a GXL that's running well, and don't plan on having the poor thing burn down after all the work I've put into it.
I definatly have to side with Mr. Landers on this one as well. He has alot of experience with these vehicles, and he's always been able to come up with the answer to the questions I've had over the ownership of this car.
I don't have any experience with the banjo bolt mod since I haven't done it yet, but here's how I see the two points.
A. Replace the stock PD with another PD.
Pros:
- Retain the fuel system's original design
- Possibly (not proven from what I've read over time) lessen wear on fuel components
- Prevent minute leaning out of mixture (I can only see this being an issue with the folks running boosted engines, us NA guys can chill out)
Cons:
- New PD can still be prone to failure (not true of the aftermarket PDs)
- More expensive then the banjo bolt method
B. Replace the stock PD with a banjo bolt.
Pros:
- If done properly, you won't have to worry about having a FC BBQ
- Cheap
Cons:
- Possible (not proven) increased wear on fuel system components (worn fuel system components still look much cheaper then crisp harnesses or even the cost of the PD in some cases)
- Can cause a minute momentary leaning of the mixture (again, only a problem for the boosted fellows)
That's how I see the comparison of both methods. I still see the banjo bolt being the best solution for a NA owner though. It's cheap, simple, and will not fail.
The extended wear on my fuel system is not even a concern either. I run the stock fuel injectors, and they're not that expensive to replace (I purchased a set off another member for $35 and got them cleaned for $40, they work swell).
The fuel pump is the only other thing I could see failing, and if it does it's the same story as the injectors. It's not that much to replace, and even makes a good excuse to upgrade a bit to maybe a TII or 3rd gen pump.
I can't see both injectors and pump failing at the same time either.
Since then I carry a fire extiguisher in my passenger seat and check for the odor when i pull the car into the garage every night.
I have definate plans on just swapping the PD with a banjo bolt (I don't plan on running RETed's fancy setup right now) and leave it at that. I own a GXL that's running well, and don't plan on having the poor thing burn down after all the work I've put into it.
I definatly have to side with Mr. Landers on this one as well. He has alot of experience with these vehicles, and he's always been able to come up with the answer to the questions I've had over the ownership of this car.
I don't have any experience with the banjo bolt mod since I haven't done it yet, but here's how I see the two points.
A. Replace the stock PD with another PD.
Pros:
- Retain the fuel system's original design
- Possibly (not proven from what I've read over time) lessen wear on fuel components
- Prevent minute leaning out of mixture (I can only see this being an issue with the folks running boosted engines, us NA guys can chill out)
Cons:
- New PD can still be prone to failure (not true of the aftermarket PDs)
- More expensive then the banjo bolt method
B. Replace the stock PD with a banjo bolt.
Pros:
- If done properly, you won't have to worry about having a FC BBQ
- Cheap
Cons:
- Possible (not proven) increased wear on fuel system components (worn fuel system components still look much cheaper then crisp harnesses or even the cost of the PD in some cases)
- Can cause a minute momentary leaning of the mixture (again, only a problem for the boosted fellows)
That's how I see the comparison of both methods. I still see the banjo bolt being the best solution for a NA owner though. It's cheap, simple, and will not fail.
The extended wear on my fuel system is not even a concern either. I run the stock fuel injectors, and they're not that expensive to replace (I purchased a set off another member for $35 and got them cleaned for $40, they work swell).
The fuel pump is the only other thing I could see failing, and if it does it's the same story as the injectors. It's not that much to replace, and even makes a good excuse to upgrade a bit to maybe a TII or 3rd gen pump.
I can't see both injectors and pump failing at the same time either.
02-02-05, 07:43 PM
#79
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Originally Posted by scathcart
No.
No current wideband technogoly is able to meter each sepearate combustion event, which is what is affected by a lack of pulsation dampner.
No current wideband technogoly is able to meter each sepearate combustion event, which is what is affected by a lack of pulsation dampner.
ok how bout a read out from an engine dyno then?
02-02-05, 07:57 PM
#80
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Originally Posted by uRizen
This is a topic I have been thinking over since my car is over the 100k mark and when I last checked the PD a couple of weeks ago, the screw had come loose.
Since then I carry a fire extiguisher in my passenger seat and check for the odor when i pull the car into the garage every night.
I have definate plans on just swapping the PD with a banjo bolt (I don't plan on running RETed's fancy setup right now) and leave it at that. I own a GXL that's running well, and don't plan on having the poor thing burn down after all the work I've put into it.
I definatly have to side with Mr. Landers on this one as well. He has alot of experience with these vehicles, and he's always been able to come up with the answer to the questions I've had over the ownership of this car.
I don't have any experience with the banjo bolt mod since I haven't done it yet, but here's how I see the two points.
A. Replace the stock PD with another PD.
Pros:
- Retain the fuel system's original design
- Possibly (not proven from what I've read over time) lessen wear on fuel components
- Prevent minute leaning out of mixture (I can only see this being an issue with the folks running boosted engines, us NA guys can chill out)
Cons:
- New PD can still be prone to failure (not true of the aftermarket PDs)
- More expensive then the banjo bolt method
B. Replace the stock PD with a banjo bolt.
Pros:
- If done properly, you won't have to worry about having a FC BBQ
- Cheap
Cons:
- Possible (not proven) increased wear on fuel system components (worn fuel system components still look much cheaper then crisp harnesses or even the cost of the PD in some cases)
- Can cause a minute momentary leaning of the mixture (again, only a problem for the boosted fellows)
That's how I see the comparison of both methods. I still see the banjo bolt being the best solution for a NA owner though. It's cheap, simple, and will not fail.
The extended wear on my fuel system is not even a concern either. I run the stock fuel injectors, and they're not that expensive to replace (I purchased a set off another member for $35 and got them cleaned for $40, they work swell).
The fuel pump is the only other thing I could see failing, and if it does it's the same story as the injectors. It's not that much to replace, and even makes a good excuse to upgrade a bit to maybe a TII or 3rd gen pump. I can't see both injectors and pump failing at the same time either.
Since then I carry a fire extiguisher in my passenger seat and check for the odor when i pull the car into the garage every night.
I have definate plans on just swapping the PD with a banjo bolt (I don't plan on running RETed's fancy setup right now) and leave it at that. I own a GXL that's running well, and don't plan on having the poor thing burn down after all the work I've put into it.
I definatly have to side with Mr. Landers on this one as well. He has alot of experience with these vehicles, and he's always been able to come up with the answer to the questions I've had over the ownership of this car.
I don't have any experience with the banjo bolt mod since I haven't done it yet, but here's how I see the two points.
A. Replace the stock PD with another PD.
Pros:
- Retain the fuel system's original design
- Possibly (not proven from what I've read over time) lessen wear on fuel components
- Prevent minute leaning out of mixture (I can only see this being an issue with the folks running boosted engines, us NA guys can chill out)
Cons:
- New PD can still be prone to failure (not true of the aftermarket PDs)
- More expensive then the banjo bolt method
B. Replace the stock PD with a banjo bolt.
Pros:
- If done properly, you won't have to worry about having a FC BBQ
- Cheap
Cons:
- Possible (not proven) increased wear on fuel system components (worn fuel system components still look much cheaper then crisp harnesses or even the cost of the PD in some cases)
- Can cause a minute momentary leaning of the mixture (again, only a problem for the boosted fellows)
That's how I see the comparison of both methods. I still see the banjo bolt being the best solution for a NA owner though. It's cheap, simple, and will not fail.
The extended wear on my fuel system is not even a concern either. I run the stock fuel injectors, and they're not that expensive to replace (I purchased a set off another member for $35 and got them cleaned for $40, they work swell).
The fuel pump is the only other thing I could see failing, and if it does it's the same story as the injectors. It's not that much to replace, and even makes a good excuse to upgrade a bit to maybe a TII or 3rd gen pump.
I can't see both injectors and pump failing at the same time either.
02-03-05, 01:01 AM
#81
I'm a boost creep...
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Originally Posted by Low Impedance
i wonder if you could modify the pararail setup RETed made to incorporate two Marren PD's tee'ed from the rail and the FPR...
Originally Posted by scheistermeister
ok how bout a read out from an engine dyno then?
02-03-05, 09:29 AM
#82
Respecognize!
Originally Posted by NZConvertible
You only need one.
yeah but the fuel is running two seperate paths, one for the prim and one for the sec. so that one would only work on the one rail it was tee to. Seeing the stock setup is sequential, one obvioiusly works, but seeing that this is more like twpo different and independant fuel delievery systems, you would have to use two.
02-03-05, 06:45 PM
#83
I wish I was driving!
Originally Posted by scheistermeister
ok how bout a read out from an engine dyno then?
An engine dyno, or any dyno for that matter, cannot measure the air fuel ratio or exhaust gas temperatures of a single combustion.
With current technology, it cannot be done.
It wouldn't be hard to produce the actual pressure fluctuations via a pressure transducer. These pressure measurements could then be matched up against the engine firing, and then the total variance of fuel injected could then be measured.... but this has already been done for us by the car's engineers.
Why is this so hard to understand? Hydraulic hammer occurs anytime in a pressurized fuel system whenever a valve is rapidly shut. The fuel injector is a valve that shuts rapidly. This WILL cause extreme pressure spikes. When the fuel injector rapidly opens, the fuel rail pressure will instantly drop.
Fuel pressure needs to be precisely controlled for the proper amount of fuel to be injected... if the fuel pressure is too high at the instant the fuel injector opens, you run rich. If it is too low, you run lean.
This is not precise fuel management.... While it may not blow a stock RX-7 with the factories extremely moderate tune, it will in the very least cause rich-lean variances between combustions and cause unnecessary damage to the fuel system components.
Anyone who ignores the testing and designs of the engineers on this device is either ignorant or stupid. There's no other way to say this.
02-03-05, 06:52 PM
#84
I wish I was driving!
Originally Posted by uRizen
- Possible (not proven) increased wear on fuel system components
Originally Posted by uRizen
- The fuel pump is the only other thing I could see failing
This works in reverse, too... the pressure pulses from the fuel pump are smoothed out via the pipe, hose, and filter before they reach the fuel rail.
02-03-05, 06:53 PM
#85
I wish I was driving!
Originally Posted by Low Impedance
yeah but the fuel is running two seperate paths, one for the prim and one for the sec. so that one would only work on the one rail it was tee to. Seeing the stock setup is sequential, one obvioiusly works, but seeing that this is more like twpo different and independant fuel delievery systems, you would have to use two.
02-04-05, 02:27 AM
#87
I wish I was driving!
Originally Posted by Low Impedance
you need to look at the pararail setup
putting before the Y block seems useless.
putting before the Y block seems useless.
The PD is a shock absorber for the fuel system. If you tee the PD into the fuel line right before the y-splitter, pulsations from both the primary and secondary rail will be absorbed.
A fuel system needs a pulsation damper and a pressure regulator sandwiching the fuel injectors.
02-04-05, 03:22 AM
#88
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Ok, I don't consider myself a totally stupid person but I just can't for the life of me envisage why the hell not having a PD would cause a 'lean' condition. I can understand fully why it _might_ cause a slightly rich condition. I guess my question is how would a PD smooth out the negative pressure wave?
I'm prolly just having a bit of a mental blank here, you seem pretty sure about this scathcart.
I'm prolly just having a bit of a mental blank here, you seem pretty sure about this scathcart.
02-04-05, 03:46 PM
#90
I'm a boost creep...
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Originally Posted by White_FC
...I just can't for the life of me envisage why the hell not having a PD would cause a 'lean' condition.
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