SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

What kind of stupid arguement is this? The vehicle is NOT stock. If he would've had a 100% stock car and just bolted on the charger and went, then MAYBE your whole 'show me a stock n/a with more than 130whp' would be useful. And why are you bringing up the fan? What does the fan have to do with supercharging it? You either retain it or go with an efan (which just strains your alt more, so who knows if it 'really' helps). This thread shoul've been closed, a whole bunch of people ranting about things they have no idea about.

NZConvertible

BS. The difference in power consumption between the stock thermoclutch fan and a replacement electric one is not even noticable.

That's a 31% increase, which is exactly what you'd expect from a mild forced induction conversion. A stock 13BT only makes ~25% more power than a stock 13B, and that's got a hell of lot more engineering in it that this.

Adam

Exactly Just like you right? My car is stock..Not his . If you read back alittle like i dont thing you have.. they are talking about do PS and AC take power...Im saying the fan takes alot of that low end power away before the pullies do...so READ!

Adam

Trust me its noticable.. .. I ran a 6 blade finger chopper and it was pushing alittle less air but it wound up quicker... E fan's are only on some of the time..Unless you have a manual switch. the less the motor has to wind up the better. i have had many cars and you get quicker responce on a Efan replacing a clutch fan. im not saying you would gain top end power but the responce is quicker.. so its not BS and im sure others will agree..

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

And clutch fans also have a CLUTCH, which means they are capable of FREE SPINNING. And this comparison of 130 to his numbers is just sad, until someone has a dyno before and after adding it (without adding 500 things at the same time), nobody will know exactly 'how much' it adds.

Adam

its kind of the same thing about Fly wheels..Why do people get the light weight ones..
Because it takes less time for the motor to spin up the weight..
Now i know the clutch fan isnt heavy. But it is thrusting alot of air.
Right at start up it pushes the most before the clutch starts letting loose. but even then its still spinning up good. Last summer when it was in the 80s and 90's the car got so warm that the fan clutch was allways locked down so the fan could spin up high to get rid of the heat.
thats when i most noticed a lack of power is when it was hot out, So i thought maybe it was just because the car was running warm, So i took it off and changed the thermo stat. sure enough i had my power back.. so you fellas in the hot area during the summer know what im talkin about

NZConvertible

Thermoclutch fans are only "on" some of the time also. Most of the time the clutch is barely engaged.

Only if it's necessary, not all the time.

If the stock fan needed to be running then an electric fan would too, and it'd be drawing a similar amount of power from the engine. An electric fan is not free cooling. It takes about the same of amount of work to move the necessary amount of air no matter which way you do it.

ddub

Why are we discussing e-fans and AC/PS pullies? This is stupid, the e-fan argument has been beaten to death, if it adds ANY power it's so small and negligible it's not worth caring about. If you beg to differ please prove it with dyno sheets, otherwise all you have is "feeling" and that means ****. And the AC/PS pullies don't add crap either, already been proven.

Now let this thread die in peace.

ported13b

maybe its not only about pure power output, maybe its about having something fun to drive. Huge power gains espically on something where ur boosting all the time can kill gas mileage, fun, and durability. Waste of money i think not, a rotary with low end power sounds like all kinds of fun to me. I look foward to seeing ur dyno numbers high or not i bet its way more fun than being N/A.

BklynRX7

Weird thing is , their is dyno in the title but i have noe seen any dyno. Hmmm

ddub

Maybe you should learn to read the whole thread...

This one is CODE BLUE2's dyno sheet from her TII block supercharged:



And RX7FROMCAL posted two pics of his, though they are small and somewhat illegible.

ddub

Pics don't wanna show up sometimes, but you can right click > properties > copy/paste into address bar.

Or for slightly larger sized pictures here on his cardomain site http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/640119/8

pianoprodigy

Wow. I've been lurking in the 2nd gen forum for months waiting to see a dyno chart, and it only makes 173 whp. I must say that I am disappointed, as are many of you.

I asked this question at least 2 other times in the past threads regarding superchargers and never got an answer. I'll try again.

Rather than a traditional intercooler to cool the intake charge, what about using some type of water/alcohol injection? For purposes of your answer, forget about the fact that you may have to refill the water/alcohol often. Assume that the setup will be setup as "aggressive" as a water/alcohol system could be setup. What kind of gains could be expected? If Rx7fromcal is really running 10 psi, I imagine he is superheating the air. It seems that water/alcohol injection would be a dirt-cheap way to cool the intake charge without the need for additional fabrication.

Please, let me hear your thoughts. My S5 NA Vert made 165 whp a few weeks ago. I have been thinking about getting some type of SC kit for two years now. I would love to know what could be expected with a "better" setup.

If you had the Camden kit on your car, what would you do to make it run best and what would you expect the best to be?

I think someone from Camden/Atkins would be the best to answer the above question considering they have done all the R&D on this setup. I would imagine that if they actually wanted to sell more than 5 of these kits that they would explore the "limits" of the setup if someone were willing to spend the money on porting, fuel control, etc.

ddub

I think water injection would be easy enough and would work well. There are lots of how-to's on the internet to set up the water injection yourself easily and for a pretty low cost.

casio

its also been debated how much the supercharger actually heats up the air. honestly, i dont know the answer at all. it'd be nice for the poster to datalog or at least have an air temp gauge. i understand these things aren't free, though. NZconvertible uses a really cheap digital gauge; $30-40 i believe. that would be good enough.

CODE BLUE 2

Yesterday I went to Atkins and put the new Supercharger on my car. I was running with the 5lb pulley . Well with the new blower that they have made I now make 10lbs boost without changing that original pulley I had on my car. I was only getting 210.9 but Im telling ya before you all decide to thrash on Camden give me a week or so to go re dyno my car. I thought my car was doing pretty good for running only 5lbs boost at 210.9. Now at 10lbs the car is crazy. I will post the new graph in the next week or so. This should prove that much more power can be added with the Camden blowers. Take into consideration of the low end that they also have with 10lbs boost.

Something is wrong with Rx7fromcal's setup, whether it be tunning issues or some restrictions. Its a matter of figuring out whats wrong. I have zero heating issues.

Im going to try to Dyno it next week or ASAP.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

We really need to see the dyno graph from lower in the band, because from checking out the TII dynos, they're making just as much torque at the same RPM from where these graphs start out at.

Evil Aviator

The Camden website quite plainly states 176hp for the kit, so why are you disappointed with 173whp?
http://www.camdensuperchargers.com/index.php?pag=10

Much like the name implies, ADI (Anti-Detonation Injection) is used to reduce the chance of detonation. If the engine is not detonating, then there is no point in adding ADI.

Also, the whole point of a "kit" is to include everything needed. In this respect, the Camden kit is just fine IMO.

Sometimes it is better for the manufacturers and retailers to stay out of internet discussions. PR is a touchy subject, so please do not think poorly of those who choose not to participate in the discussions of the peanut gallery.

1) Everybody complains about the price now, so I seriously doubt that their market includes people who would be interested in a $10,000 to $20,000 engine.
2) A Roots blower will not produce as much power as a centrifugal compressor, and there is no technology known at this time to make anybody think that this will ever change. Throwing money at the engine will not change the physics of the design.

Most Roots type blowers have about 55-60% efficiency, which means they heat the air about 15-20% more than a typical turbocharger. If Atkins were to post the Camden kit efficiency numbers, I could tell you how much the air is heated based on an established physics formula. However, this would not really make much difference to the end-user, as dyno numbers are really more what people are concerned with. Also, the "feel" of the car is the main focus of using a supercharger rather than a TII engine, but unfortunately there isn't any way to measure this without taking a test drive.

Welcome to the modern world of turbocharging.

ddub

The 176 hp claim from there site is with stock injectors and not a 10lb pulley like rx7fromcal is running.

88IntegraLS

Ha ha ha. Yes yes, another "roots represents all positive displacement superchargers and they all suck" bash fest. Lol.


There is a miata SC kit featuring a whipple charger (twin screw, not roots), fmic, brackets, manifold, etc. in the 3500 range. It is produced by a co that does a turbo kit for the miata too. The power levels are about the same on a stock miata engine, maybe a tad more peak hp with the turbo for the same boost.

There was a quote on the site, and i apologize for forgetting what company it was, which went something like:

"we won't comment on which kit is better, the turbo or supercharger kit for the miata. they are different and fun in a different way. All we know is that when company personnel test drive the sc miata, they always find excuses to do a lot of U turns. It doesn't feel the same as the turbo miata and not everyone likes it, but we all agree that it will be brutal on the autocross course."

All superchargers are not created equal. The camden kit works fine, but it does not represent modern supercharger technology IMO. It is similar to all the old weiand industrial blowers (ie. 6-71) on farm diesels and hotrods.

But one thing is for certain, instant boost and lots of low end torque are fun fun fun.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

What he said ^

RX7FROMCAL

i think with the sc that atkins puts out, the ecu has alot to do with holding it back, my new ones going in some time within the neck two weeks will post the dyno on it when its done, im sure ill see more hp and low end.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

I don't. Even with a microtech it wasn't putting out anything very impressive (on a car with quite a bit of extensive mods to start)

Evil Aviator

No, this is another "Roots represents all Camden superchargers" thread. When Camden produces a Lyshom-based supercharger, then your comment may be worth more than trivia.

I totally agree. However, Roots type blowers are inexpensive. Although the Lysholm types are getting less expensive to produce, I still don't see the cheapkates on this forum coughing up the money for one, especially when they are complaining about the cost of the budget-minded Atkins kit.

There is currently no such thing as instant boost because of clearance volume. Also, FYI, your beloved Lysholm supercharger has the disadvantage of heating the intake air during idle and cruise.

I disagree. The outdated design of the supercharger is what is "holding it back", assuming that anything is holding it back at all. IMO it is what it is. You may have noticed that those on this forum with more education in forced induction did not expect stellar performance out of a Roots blower.

Strangely enough, what you consider "holding it back" is what I consider the best part of the Atkins kit, lol. I think that the best part about the Atkins kit is that you can just slap it on your car. What's the point of a kit if you have to spend a lot of time and money reworking the entire engine bay and fiddling with all kinds of complicated parts? This kit is great for those who want some more performance out of their NA RX-7, but don't want to spend several months piecing together a system that may or may not work as planned.

pianoprodigy

I guess I was unjustifiably hoping that the kit wouldn't do so poorly IMO. I could make 173whp in my S5 Vert if I swapped to a header. I understand the powerband would be different, and I would be interested in seeing a 173ish whp NA dyno chart overlaid on the 173 whp dyno chart from the Camden to see just how different the power curves are.

On the subject of WI, the system may not be detonating at the current boost level, but couldn't one change to a smaller pulley, run the blower into a more inefficient, higher boost level, and use WI to compensate and keep the detonation at bay?