Scalliwag

Haha!!! If it takes that long to get that car down the track he may as well not grunt it all the way to Cali next week

Atkins Dan

**** in your own cereal for a change, 15 PSI are nuts our seals are currently being used by many top notch racers, one I will name is Carlos Gonzales, he's using 45 psi of boost and has had situations where boost has spiked to 90psi and the seals still held. He is one of the fastest running in the 7s. Now I am not advocating using that much boost nor am I going to say that they would hold up forever that would be stupid and lying which others will do. I will say that yes we have had seal failures but everyone that I know of has been identified as builder error or an engine failure not caused by the seal. Ask around to the major racing houses about who uses our seals, and you will find that there are quite a few. If you want to use Mazda seals go right on ahead, just let me remind you of something mazda used to use a 3 piece apex seals, now they use a 2 piece seal nearly identical to ours. Hmmmm and they are the only ones doing research on this.....

and if this is not enough i have another testimonial for you.

yes this is copied from the original source and some of you that use multiple forums, SKALLIWAG, have seen it I will not be too rude and post a link to it becasue that is just not right. but here is the quote for you as originally posted


>>>>Ok here goes my 2 cents.
Name: Judge Ito
Occupation: Owner of J.R.'s Rotary Performance Shop Inc.
Experience: 16 years of building turbo and non-turbo rotary engines
Expertise: building high horsepower reliable rotary engines
accomplishements: to many to list.......

My point in writting what I wrote is to merit my results with the type of seals that I have used.

I have used Racing Beat's carbon aluminum apex seals back in the late 80's they were fine but would yield low compression and when your building NA engines you need the most amount of compression available.

I have used ceramics, they seal well and could take some serious exhaust gas temperature but they are out of your average racers price range and when they break, say goodbye to your engine(total destruction internally)

I have used Eamon Hurleys apex seals also. They seal well with used rotor housings but I was not happy with the wear and visual grooves the rotor housings were left behind.

I have used power house engineerings apex seals. they were cut to long and had some serious blow by from one rotor chamber to the other.

I have used stock 2mm mazda oem apex seals for turbo charged engine with great results. no complaine here.

Now this brings me to the Atkins apex seals.... I have build some serious high revving bridgeport engines. I mean 11,000 plus rpm with a 230 nitrous oxide shot. engine estimated horsepower is 435 rwhp. I have raced 2 full seasons beating the crap out the engine and the Atkins apex seals with absolutely no engine or apex seal damage. I have had some real bad nitrous oxide explosions come out the carburetor to the point that I melted the power boosters out the carb and no apex seal failures. I mean I have put the Atkins apex seals to the test and I have not broken one apex seal yet. By the same token I want to say that I build my high revving engines very carefully. I have my own clearances that allow me to get away with reliability at this type of extreme abuse, but the moral to the story is: if you know how to build a solid engine the Atkins apex seals have past the test. I have had many people try to blame the atkins apex seals when they had engine failure, after I talked to them for a while and doing my rotary engine forensic work, I have found the problem of the apex seal failure, do to in-proper engine build. Example from porting the exhaust port wrong, to not clearancing the seals to the specific engine. Basically human error not apex seal error.

I stand here giving you my bias opinion on my personal results with the types of seals I have tested. I will not use any other seal for my high revving engines then the Atkins apex seals. I talked to Dave Atkins and he told me some more re-search to improve the seal is currently being done. Besides my personal results I also have a long list of engine builders that I have helped to get great results from the Atkins Seals.

Amen..
_________________
1977 Mazda Rx3-Sp
2004 Mazda Rx-8




Thank you very much and I rest my case, use whatever cheap or expensive seal you desire I have absolute faith in OURS

Maxthe7man

I am using the RA seals with so far, good results...I have boosted to 19 psi, with no drama, besides turning the tires to smoke through 3rd gear....
They did take a long time to break in......
I was gonna use Atkins seals, but decided to give the RA ones a shot, not dissappointed, but I will try the atkins seals for myself once as well....
Just a question for Dan Atkins, were your seals developed by Atkins themselves or by a 3rd party, just curious, as I have heard others taking credit for your seal technology...Max

RETed

How about I just post other "testimonials"?

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=150014
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=270096
https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...hreadid=268775

There was a thread which quoted that someone from Atkins told them that 14 or 15psi was too much for their apex seals; I couldn't find that reference, but I swear it was posted somewhere.

As for the Judge Ito post - I've read enough to understand HIS special clearancing procedure for your apex seals, and Jeff20B had bitched about this in one of the above threads.

This sounds like damage control to me.

I've seen enough of other threads just in here to make my own conclusion that customer service is not your strong point; not a big surprise as almost all of the other rotary vendors are like this.  I have my own beliefs on customer service, and they are not consistent with that I have read about yours.  That's all I'm going to say.

I find this special clearancing procedure a bit concerning, as only Judge Ito is the only one who has mentioned it on here (does anyone else know about this?).  Have you included this special procedure with all your apex seals sold now?

Or have the changed the apex seal design again?  There were several mentions about that in several threads in here...


-TEd

scathcart

http://www.nopistons.com/forums/inde...opic=23547&hl=

Atkins Mama

This is not damage control, this is a direct response to your attack.

You asked so here it is.

We developed our seals. If you have not personally had a bad experience with the seal then please don't talk about what you have not experienced. If you have had a bad experience we want to hear about it straight from you that is the only way the product gets better. Yes it sounds snippy, maybe even a little petty but I was not the one who started this. Many of the posts you see in ANY of the forums relate to negative information, this person did this, that person did that. He said, she said. It is alot easier to slam a negative comment than it is to give a positive testimonial.

Yes i have seen the "bad reports" on apex seals. I am not going to sit here and give you guys bad reports on other seals, all we are saying is that Judge Ito isn't the only racer that is using our seals. There are many, who are not having problems. Additionally we are listening to our customers to determine what it is that they want and researching new materials, processes and ways to improve performance AND reduce cost. I don't appreciate the negative comment towards our seals, you said WTF they would not handle or were not designed to handle 15psi, Dan showed you a customer using alot more than 15psi and very sucsessful at it too.

As for the "other people who claim to have developed our seals, get a life"

If you are happy with the stock mazda great I'm happy for you, but we are not.

rxseven

I have had to give additional clearances using hurley seals before. Even though they told me it was not necessary, they were just too long. It really is a pain in the **** to sand down one of the seal edges and keep it straight. Does anyone know if Ito has a certain technique?

RETed

Sure, it's easy to limit testimonials due to direct experience.  If you want any feedback directly only to you, this sounds like this is an experimental product still in development to me.  This is a public forum, last time I checked and open to both positive and negative comments on the RX-7 and its products...unless otherwise restricted by the admins or the mods.

People blow the stock OEM Mazda apex seals, but I do not hear Mazda making excuses why.  I understand that the majority of the failures ARE due to "installation error", but to try and keep only positive feedback to your shop sounds like damage control to me.


I'd like to hear why they were not?

I'm still waiting for dan atkins reply on the whole teflon encapsulated silicone water jacket o-rings...


-Ted

OKRX-7

How about you guys chill on the thread jacking and jump to your own in which to flame each other back and forth. I don't come to this thread to read about Atkins seals, and I deffinitly don't come to this thread to see childish fighting.

Maxthe7man

Mama Atkins: I have alot of respect for you operation, and what your shop has done for the rotary, I just wanted it from the source that they were your seals, there is another shop out there that is claiming they developed them, and they sell them to you....They also claimed the same thing with the rotary aviation seals, but I asked RA directly, and told that wasn't true either...
Here is one post I am referrring to about the RA seals, it was telephone conversation they had with a freind that they claimed to have developed your seals...

So there might be people blowing up engines that people have been told are built with the "atkins" seals which really weren't....Just FYI.....I leave the poster of that thread as anomynous for now....Max

Atkins Dan

The Atkins apex seals ARE still made by Atkins and NOT by a 3rd party.
Dan

Scalliwag

Piston ring filing has been around forever and is a must for building piston "race" engines. A ring grinding jig will work for apex seals.
You have to be careful that you are grinding truly squared ends and that you take the burr off as you grind.
Obviously you have to be real careful not to take off too much

Ito has pretty much implemented old school hotrod techniques into his building. But he had to come up with the clearance measurements on his own.
Piston engines with forced induction get different ring gap clearances as NA's as well.

People including myself can talk all day about what works and what does not. Not many people can back it the way Ito can. If Ito can build motor after motor using a particular seal and not only not have failures but have motors that last well beyond other builders that should tell people something.
If he is doing something right with success then those that are not having the same success with the same seals he uses must be doing something wrong.

Since we are already on this road and a lot of critisms have been thrown around it may as well be cleared up.
When you want to do something successful it is great to have advice from successful people on the subject.
You can't say that Ito is just lucky because he has built so many motors using his clearancing tchniques so he must be doing something right.
That narrows it down to the obvious and pretty much eliminates the argument for those that have had failures to blaming the components instead of themselves.

I made it clear that I don't discount the RA seals because of the failure Ken had. His application is very unique and there may still be an explanation and/or a remedy for them to work in his application.

rx7_turbo2

I heard it right from the "horses mouth" that claim is false. It's not hard to see what's being insinuated in that statement, it's unbelievably misleading. This thread has helped to clear up some of this type of nonsense, since the right people seem to be posting. I wonder if the Author of the above statement would be willing to address it? Given the fact, everytime anything is brought up about them I get threatened and called a trash talker I won't post their name. If they come across this thread hopefully they'll address it.

That's a major issue. Some shop is throwing god knows what seals in an engine, making the claim their RA or Atkins seals, then when the owner pops the motor they bad mouth the seal manufacturer, when the reality is they don't really know what seals were put into the engine. If I was RA or Atkins I would be pissed that this is going on and put a hault to it immediately. Set aside the fact someone else is taking credit for your work, the real problem is the possibility that owners are bad mouthing seal manufacterers based on a false pretence.

rxseven

Thanks for that bit of info, Scalliwag

RETed

After thinking about this "clearancing" problem, it's most likely have to be sanding the apex seal sides.  I think it would be crazy to try and "file down" the apex seal groove???


-Ted

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

This shop that claims to have developed the atkins and RA seals... is it located in calgary and seems to think they are "specialists"?

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

I've got to say that I use atkins seals on almost all of my engines and they perform very well to my expectations. I build mainly stock and mildly modded engines, and have yet to have any failures on them that cannot be attributed to user abuse. I know it is an entirely different ballgame when you start setting up for high power and race use, and I cannot comment on this.

I have to admit I am curious about the RA seals, and have ordered a few sets to play with in some high-abuse engine situations for friends/close customers. We'll see how they hold up, so far reports are favorable other than the long breakin requirement.

The only other thing I have to say is that you guys shouldn't be flaming each other. I have much respect for both Dan and Ted, and some of the other builders mentioned here, and there is no use in you all bitching back and forth. I don't think it is right to call certain products crap altogether, when in fact there are specific uses that some are intended for, and some that they are not intended for.

While hurley seals can probably hold up to some boost, we're all pretty much aware that they aren't as good as stock seals, or some other aftermarket ones. They are probably the best for a street NA engine with used housings. Since they're cheap, this goes hand in hand. Don't try to use them for something they're not intended for, and you won't have any problems.

Same for atkins...they're a soft seal, break in quickly, hold up well to moderate boost, and I am not real sure how they perform in race apps. For the majority of people's needs, they are perfect. I don't see how you can badmouth that.

As for mazda 3pc stockers, I'd put my money on them being the best engineered seal out there, other than the fact that they tear up rotorhousings like a mother. Why mazda would let this happen is beyond me. It is a good thing they went to a 2pc, but I can't help but wonder why they waited to long...they had to have experimented with that design before. After all they have 40-some years and millions of dollars of R&D involved in this, I can't see anyone else coming close to that claim.

Can't we all just get along?

rxseven

The pre 85 seals were 2-piece aren't they? They worked just fine, why they went to 3-piece in the first place is beyond me.