RTEK 2.0 vs Standalone EMS?
01-06-11, 07:26 AM
#76
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My $.02 since I run an S5 NA car and an RTek 2.1.
The RTek is great for what it is, which is a chipped stock motherboard controlling the stock sensors. For someone in Cali it would be excellent, because it doesn't delete any of the factory emissions equipment.
Downsides are that the fuel and ignition maps are pretty coarse... I can see this when datalogging on the dyno. It's not as sophisticated as modern aftermarket EFI systems. Another downside is tuning is pretty clunky (you use a Palm for it), map storage is clunky.
Realistically - for an NA car, they're not that sensitive to the tune so it is perfectly fine. I wouldn't spend the extra money on a MoTeC, Haltech, et al because you're just not going to see much extra power or driveability. Turbo car, different story.
Regarding the cats, I have a SDJ header, shortened, connected to a 3" ceramic pre-cat and a 3" metallic main cat (with air tube). Haven't had any issues, but I only have 2,000 miles on the car since doing all the work.
The RTek is great for what it is, which is a chipped stock motherboard controlling the stock sensors. For someone in Cali it would be excellent, because it doesn't delete any of the factory emissions equipment.
Downsides are that the fuel and ignition maps are pretty coarse... I can see this when datalogging on the dyno. It's not as sophisticated as modern aftermarket EFI systems. Another downside is tuning is pretty clunky (you use a Palm for it), map storage is clunky.
Realistically - for an NA car, they're not that sensitive to the tune so it is perfectly fine. I wouldn't spend the extra money on a MoTeC, Haltech, et al because you're just not going to see much extra power or driveability. Turbo car, different story.
Regarding the cats, I have a SDJ header, shortened, connected to a 3" ceramic pre-cat and a 3" metallic main cat (with air tube). Haven't had any issues, but I only have 2,000 miles on the car since doing all the work.
Where do you get SDJ headers, do you have a picture of it? does it require a stock cat or does it come with other pieces?
01-06-11, 07:32 AM
#77
I didn't make my point effectively. You have fine resolution for changes to the fuel and timing maps from the standpoint of being able to make very minute fueling changes or timing changes. But you only get them in 512 RPM steps. Again, for an NA, the changes you're making are extremely minor. You will be fine.
In all honesty, the stock FC injectors and FPR are fine for what you're doing. You're not doing yourself any favors swapping in other components.
If you want to make the most power with a mostly stock NA (you're keeping the stock intake manifolds, right?), focus on the header design and getting a really good tune on it.
In all honesty, the stock FC injectors and FPR are fine for what you're doing. You're not doing yourself any favors swapping in other components.
If you want to make the most power with a mostly stock NA (you're keeping the stock intake manifolds, right?), focus on the header design and getting a really good tune on it.
01-06-11, 07:35 AM
#78
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I didn't make my point effectively. You have fine resolution for changes to the fuel and timing maps from the standpoint of being able to make very minute fueling changes or timing changes. But you only get them in 512 RPM steps. Again, for an NA, the changes you're making are extremely minor. You will be fine.
In all honesty, the stock FC injectors and FPR are fine for what you're doing. You're not doing yourself any favors swapping in other components.
If you want to make the most power with a mostly stock NA (you're keeping the stock intake manifolds, right?), focus on the header design and getting a really good tune on it.
In all honesty, the stock FC injectors and FPR are fine for what you're doing. You're not doing yourself any favors swapping in other components.
If you want to make the most power with a mostly stock NA (you're keeping the stock intake manifolds, right?), focus on the header design and getting a really good tune on it.
01-06-11, 09:12 AM
#80
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1. Better atomization, benefits - possible improved fuel economy, increase stability, more accurate fuel metering.
2. Newer Parts - more reliable
Why I prefer not to use RX7 460cc injectors even when reconditioned:
1. Older technology - doesn't atomize fuel as well
2. Over 20 year old injectors, no matter how you look at them, even reconditioned are still over 20 years old, I'm not willing to trust them on a highly tuned NA or turbo car.
RX8 injectors while of a newer design will fit the RX7 fuel rails and harness as well, the miata guys that are turbo charging their cars have used RX7 460cc injectors which fit in the cars, plug and play, also used RX8 injectors which also plug and play. RX8 Injectors are also high impedance, so that's not a problem either.
Over all I'm looking to squeeze as much power as I can with better parts, not to mention I didn't spend that much on 4 RX8 secondary injectors anyways, I'm talking only 100 dollars for the set.
01-06-11, 09:25 AM
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I am not sure what you think is newer technology in the injectors thats going to give you better atomization. As near as I can tell they are simply standard injectors. ALso try not to forget the RX8, even while it is a 13B more or less, is NOT the same as what is in your car. YOu do understand how the diffusers work? Those litle plastic gadgets under your injectors?
I am guessing your reading a lot of internet legend that has little to no bearing in the real world. 13B's do not suffer from fuel atomization problems even when carb'ed.
As to trying to "tune" the 13B, you should look into what people have done and try and understand why they have done it. Once you understand it then you can start making good decisions about what to or not to do.
I also get that the cost factor here is high. By the time you have the RX8 injectors cleaned and flow tested, you will have spent as much as you could have bought a brand new set of injectors from FIC or similar tailored to your needs. Sometimes we need to understand what a "false economy" is.
I am guessing your reading a lot of internet legend that has little to no bearing in the real world. 13B's do not suffer from fuel atomization problems even when carb'ed.
As to trying to "tune" the 13B, you should look into what people have done and try and understand why they have done it. Once you understand it then you can start making good decisions about what to or not to do.
I also get that the cost factor here is high. By the time you have the RX8 injectors cleaned and flow tested, you will have spent as much as you could have bought a brand new set of injectors from FIC or similar tailored to your needs. Sometimes we need to understand what a "false economy" is.
01-06-11, 10:13 AM
#83
My $.02 since I run an S5 NA car and an RTek 2.1.
The RTek is great for what it is, which is a chipped stock motherboard controlling the stock sensors. For someone in Cali it would be excellent, because it doesn't delete any of the factory emissions equipment.
Downsides are that the fuel and ignition maps are pretty coarse... I can see this when datalogging on the dyno. It's not as sophisticated as modern aftermarket EFI systems. Another downside is tuning is pretty clunky (you use a Palm for it), map storage is clunky.
Realistically - for an NA car, they're not that sensitive to the tune so it is perfectly fine. I wouldn't spend the extra money on a MoTeC, Haltech, et al because you're just not going to see much extra power or driveability. Turbo car, different story.
Regarding the cats, I have a SDJ header, shortened, connected to a 3" ceramic pre-cat and a 3" metallic main cat (with air tube). Haven't had any issues, but I only have 2,000 miles on the car since doing all the work.
The RTek is great for what it is, which is a chipped stock motherboard controlling the stock sensors. For someone in Cali it would be excellent, because it doesn't delete any of the factory emissions equipment.
Downsides are that the fuel and ignition maps are pretty coarse... I can see this when datalogging on the dyno. It's not as sophisticated as modern aftermarket EFI systems. Another downside is tuning is pretty clunky (you use a Palm for it), map storage is clunky.
Realistically - for an NA car, they're not that sensitive to the tune so it is perfectly fine. I wouldn't spend the extra money on a MoTeC, Haltech, et al because you're just not going to see much extra power or driveability. Turbo car, different story.
Regarding the cats, I have a SDJ header, shortened, connected to a 3" ceramic pre-cat and a 3" metallic main cat (with air tube). Haven't had any issues, but I only have 2,000 miles on the car since doing all the work.
I had a streetported S4 NA controlled by an RTEK 2.1. It worked great for what it was. I put 10000 miles on the car with the RTEK, 2000 of which were on racetracks. The car never had an RTEK related problem or issue and the tune was solid and consistent. FWIW I ran freshly cleaned stock 460cc injectors as primaries and new 550cc injectors as secondaries. I didn't need 550cc secondaries, but buying those injectors from Rock Auto was cheaper than having the originals cleaned.
Your car is an NA... you are going to pretty much tune it once and leave it until you do other mods to it. Adding added complexity is just going to give you headaches and make the car harder to tune.
01-06-11, 10:31 AM
#84
I am not sure what you think is newer technology in the injectors thats going to give you better atomization. As near as I can tell they are simply standard injectors. ALso try not to forget the RX8, even while it is a 13B more or less, is NOT the same as what is in your car. YOu do understand how the diffusers work? Those litle plastic gadgets under your injectors?
I am guessing your reading a lot of internet legend that has little to no bearing in the real world. 13B's do not suffer from fuel atomization problems even when carb'ed.
I am guessing your reading a lot of internet legend that has little to no bearing in the real world. 13B's do not suffer from fuel atomization problems even when carb'ed.
This allowed improved idle fuel economy and lower HC emissions. It's stated very clearly in Mazda literature, including a couple SAE papers.
Just because the Rx-8 system is better doesn't mean it's worth swapping injectors though, and the jet air system cannot be retrofitted into older engines.
01-06-11, 10:37 AM
#85
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I completely agree. You are better off spending your money on a good exhaust, not trying to reinvent fuel injection. Even if you had bad injectors a rotary NA engine won't blow up or knock. It will just be slow. If you are concerned about your injectors definately get them cleaned or replaced.
I had a streetported S4 NA controlled by an RTEK 2.1. It worked great for what it was. I put 10000 miles on the car with the RTEK, 2000 of which were on racetracks. The car never had an RTEK related problem or issue and the tune was solid and consistent. FWIW I ran freshly cleaned stock 460cc injectors as primaries and new 550cc injectors as secondaries. I didn't need 550cc secondaries, but buying those injectors from Rock Auto was cheaper than having the originals cleaned.
Your car is an NA... you are going to pretty much tune it once and leave it until you do other mods to it. Adding added complexity is just going to give you headaches and make the car harder to tune.
I had a streetported S4 NA controlled by an RTEK 2.1. It worked great for what it was. I put 10000 miles on the car with the RTEK, 2000 of which were on racetracks. The car never had an RTEK related problem or issue and the tune was solid and consistent. FWIW I ran freshly cleaned stock 460cc injectors as primaries and new 550cc injectors as secondaries. I didn't need 550cc secondaries, but buying those injectors from Rock Auto was cheaper than having the originals cleaned.
Your car is an NA... you are going to pretty much tune it once and leave it until you do other mods to it. Adding added complexity is just going to give you headaches and make the car harder to tune.
The RTEK I will grant that it is good for what it is, but it is still limited by 1980s EFI technology. The PowerFC how is a good deal more flexible in what it can do for me, as of now I currently am messing around with NA power, with it's flexibility it will allow me to be able to turbo charge the same engine without having to change the ECU, meaning less work, just more tuning.
The injectors I'm getting are already cleaned so basically all I need to do is get them flow tested.
01-06-11, 10:41 AM
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I understand the jet air system can't be retrofitted, hell, I wouldn't even try, but since a set of RX8 injectors only set me back 100 dollars, a price I can easily live with, and that the drop right in, I think the cost factor isn't that high, considering the seller who is knowledgable to an extent in cleaning injectors has cleaned them already for me, so all I need now is flow testing. Anyways all this is happening when I modify the fuel system while the engine is out of the car.
01-06-11, 11:00 AM
#87
I am wondering, how is it adding complexity when the parts I am going to use are almost completely plug and play, the injectors I am planning to use are plug and play, I have stated that in a previous reply here. The PowerFC is also plug and play although requires a couple of things to make it work properly on the FC.
The RTEK I will grant that it is good for what it is, but it is still limited by 1980s EFI technology. The PowerFC how is a good deal more flexible in what it can do for me, as of now I currently am messing around with NA power, with it's flexibility it will allow me to be able to turbo charge the same engine without having to change the ECU, meaning less work, just more tuning.
The injectors I'm getting are already cleaned so basically all I need to do is get them flow tested.
The RTEK I will grant that it is good for what it is, but it is still limited by 1980s EFI technology. The PowerFC how is a good deal more flexible in what it can do for me, as of now I currently am messing around with NA power, with it's flexibility it will allow me to be able to turbo charge the same engine without having to change the ECU, meaning less work, just more tuning.
The injectors I'm getting are already cleaned so basically all I need to do is get them flow tested.
If you had some problem that could not be diagnosed, I'd say sure just go standalone and rewire the whole thing.
01-06-11, 12:27 PM
#88
I didn't make my point effectively. You have fine resolution for changes to the fuel and timing maps from the standpoint of being able to make very minute fueling changes or timing changes. But you only get them in 512 RPM steps. Again, for an NA, the changes you're making are extremely minor. You will be fine.
In all honesty, the stock FC injectors and FPR are fine for what you're doing. You're not doing yourself any favors swapping in other components.
If you want to make the most power with a mostly stock NA (you're keeping the stock intake manifolds, right?), focus on the header design and getting a really good tune on it.
In all honesty, the stock FC injectors and FPR are fine for what you're doing. You're not doing yourself any favors swapping in other components.
If you want to make the most power with a mostly stock NA (you're keeping the stock intake manifolds, right?), focus on the header design and getting a really good tune on it.
01-06-11, 01:18 PM
#89
"If you don't know where you're going, you'll probably never get there.."
With no real power/performance goals it is impossible to make an optimal selection in terms of engine management or components. A full standalone is a waste of money on an N/A 13b period. RX-8 injectors are similarly a frivolous expenditure, (especially considering they'll be useless when this turbo conversion occurs). You seem to be stuck in this mindset that "newer = better" it doesn't. If you want to make 400whp and boost 15+ psi on this turbo setup, then go ahead and get a standalone, but if you just want to run a stocker or a hybrid just get the Turbo Rtek , tune vacuum and be done.
Ironically the money wasted on RX8 injectors, flow testing , and an upgraded fuel system could make up a good bit of the difference between the Rtek and standalone X
With no real power/performance goals it is impossible to make an optimal selection in terms of engine management or components. A full standalone is a waste of money on an N/A 13b period. RX-8 injectors are similarly a frivolous expenditure, (especially considering they'll be useless when this turbo conversion occurs). You seem to be stuck in this mindset that "newer = better" it doesn't. If you want to make 400whp and boost 15+ psi on this turbo setup, then go ahead and get a standalone, but if you just want to run a stocker or a hybrid just get the Turbo Rtek , tune vacuum and be done.
Ironically the money wasted on RX8 injectors, flow testing , and an upgraded fuel system could make up a good bit of the difference between the Rtek and standalone X
01-06-11, 02:14 PM
#90
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I guess what I am getting from this now is you are not planning on having the injectors cleaned and balance. This is a fairly large mistake IMHO, as you cannot find any documentation that agrees as to what the injectors actually flow. I understand you only have $100 into them now, but for all you know they are completely unbalanced and could cause issues you will spend time chasing. Although in the end, do what youwant to do with your car. I think you are overthinking the progression of mods quite a bit and you should really do more research into what people are actually doing before you make some decisions.
01-06-11, 02:20 PM
#91
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I guess what I am getting from this now is you are not planning on having the injectors cleaned and balance. This is a fairly large mistake IMHO, as you cannot find any documentation that agrees as to what the injectors actually flow. I understand you only have $100 into them now, but for all you know they are completely unbalanced and could cause issues you will spend time chasing. Although in the end, do what youwant to do with your car. I think you are overthinking the progression of mods quite a bit and you should really do more research into what people are actually doing before you make some decisions.
01-06-11, 06:31 PM
#92
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I disagree. I have driven and helped tune cars with a full standalone EMS on an NA 13B, and the difference is night and day compared to the crappy stock EMS. Also, most of the popular RX-7 full standalone EMS products will run either an NA or turbocharged engine, so some people like to learn turning on an NA engine first because tuning errors are less likely to damage the engine.
There isn't much difference in power but the driveablility is hugely superior if tuned well. Unfortunately, most of the people on this forum do not know how to tune an engine and are unwilling to have a professonial tune it for them.
The FPR will allow for the elimination of the problematic stock pulsation damper, provide a stable fuel pressure required for accurate tuning, and allow for base fuel pressure changes to aid in tuning and optimal spray pattern. The aftermarket FPR will work well for an NA application, and even better for a turbocharged application.
I do agree with the RX-8 injectors being a waste of money. Given the NA>TII goal of the car, I think it would be better to get some nice Injector Dynamics injectors that could run the engine well in both NA and turbo configurations.
I do agree with the RX-8 injectors being a waste of money. Given the NA>TII goal of the car, I think it would be better to get some nice Injector Dynamics injectors that could run the engine well in both NA and turbo configurations.
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