cluosborne

When I first heard about the new rotary engine, I've been thinking that I could wait until the new engine becomes available (be it from a wreck or as a stand-alone assembly), instead of spending money on a high-mileage N/A. By swapping in this engine, I'd have a power plant that provides more power, while cleaner and more fuel efficient, and is stock.

I have yet to see anything about swapping in such an engine (as it's not on the market yet), or pics of the engine mounts.

When it does become available, how feasible would swapping such an engine be? I like the concept of having my cake and eating it too.

Gefunk

Well your cake is rotten and I wouldn't eat it if you payed me too. Anyway in all seriousness. If you could do it I would but the price for it would probably be outrageous. Because they are better on emissions is because there is a lot more stuff into a engine bay. I know there is quite a lot of room in the existing bay with your motor in there but it would be pushing it to put a teched out Renesis in there. I am sure by the end of 03 there will be someone who has done it but no one is going to have a clue now man. And BTW why the helll am I the only one responding to things tonight!!!!!!!

cluosborne

I doubt that there'd be much more stuff in the engine bay. If you're thinking of bigger emissions equipment, that is not the case. The new engine is lighter, around 303 lbs with accessories vs. 344. The new design is cleaner and more efficient because the intake and exhaust ports have been relocated allowing unburned fuel to be used in the next cycle.

In fact, I read in a Road and Track article that the engine management system doesn't use oxygen sensors. It also has a higher redline, 10000 RPM, and sounds slightly better (I wouldn't know though, so I can't defend that point). The only drawback is torque, which is slightly more than the 86-88 N/A 13B, 153 lb-ft.

Make no mistake, I don't intend to simply junk my old engine. There are a few upgrades I want to do (K and N air filter, ignition box, ECU). If I do the swap, I'll keep the original engine, maybe rebuild it, clean it up, and display it.

BTW, I wouldn't eat a rotten cake for all the money in the world :-)

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

that would be nice and it has run through my mind a couple of times, but it would be mad $$$. U would also need a custom drivetrain, unless it all bolts straight up, atleast a custom driveshaft. that would be cool.

BlackSport0187

Good luck to anyone who tries! Someday I'll probably give it a go.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Shouldn't these questions be asked after it hits the market? I mean, all we can do is give speculations, unless someone has actually seen it all. I think asking how hard it would be to convert would be impossible to answer since probably none of us have seen the mounts/tranny/etc. Or am I behind and the things already out?

No7Yet

You're just a little behind, SonicRat Mazda has already delivered a select few Renesis engines to various tuners in the US. Uh, heh. I just about typed 'em. Anyway, they're out there. (I know this firsthand)

I have been told by a VERY reputable source that they will bolt into a third-gen much easier than a 2nd-gen. The RX-8 will make use of a PPF, like the 3rd and Miata. The rotors, however share dimensions with the 13B-series engines, and can be interchanged. The intermediate housing (which now houses the intake and exhaust ports) would have to be modified to mount in our chassis.

But, given enough money, anything is possible. Just don't plan on doing it with a college-student budget

Brandon

No7Yet

Oh, and as an addendum, turbocharged Renesis applications are already in existance.

With very good results.

Mum's the word.

Brandon

rico05

Ok. Ever look at the price of new engines? I can tell you, at least $5-6k for one. I am not ready to buy an engine that costs more and still dosen't perform as well as a 20B with equall time and investments. Also, anyone know if the RENEISS will bolt up to the stock FC tranny? How bout that differetial? A n/a differential WILL NOT handle 250 hp. You gonna make your own engine mounts? How about wiring everything in w/ no Hayne's Manual to use? I am not trying to rain on your parade, but it is not just gonna be plug-and-play. We are talking THOUSANDS of dollars in order to obtain, install, and actuall run a RENEISS in a FC. I would still go for the tried and true, as well as after-market backed, 20B swap. A 20B swap will cost approx $6-8K for a properly done job ($4k for the engine, $1k for tranny, $1k for rest of drivetrain, + mods). I am guessing a RENEISS swap will be in the ballpark of $15k. Good luck, cuz you're gonna need it!!!

Turblown

iTrader: (12)

20B renesis ahhhh...... wonder if that been done yet?

rico05

Wow. That would be really impossible. Wanna find an ECU to operate 3 rotors on a brand new engine? MD, Perer Farrell, Racing Beat, M2, Rotary Performance...none of em would even try.

cluosborne

I never said it would be cheap, nor easy.

I expected cost to easily go into the thousands of dollars, maybe 5k at the least. Engine management could be accomplished by an aftermarket computer.

As a matter of fact, I've been (at least on paper) designing an on-board mobile pc, using off-the-shelf hardware and software, that would allow tuning in the car (along with providing music) that I've priced around 4k. The price including two amps, speakers, mobile preamp (no headunit), GPS, RDS tuner, DVD, and band scanner. How's that for expensive? It's certainly not going to be plug-and-play.

Wiring is practically second nature to me as I've been looking at the FC's wiring diagrams and have taken apart certain parts of the car to see how it goes together (a habit I've had since I was 5). To make things even more interesting, I want to do the job without cutting a single wire or drilling a hole (which I've succeeded in doing more than once installing car stereos. Competition quality with full wiring, separate amps, and subwoofer).

As far as the drivetrain goes, I know about the rear diff and the transmission. The thought of a six-speed swap and torsen limited slip is very appealing. As it's been pointed out, not cheap and not a bolt-in.

I'll admit, the 20B swap is quite impressive, but you lose some accessories, such as air conditioning, in the process. The purpose of making the Renesis swap is to upgrade performance, fuel economy, and drivability, not to mention running cleaner.

What appeals to me in making a swap is that this engine is the the most advanced rotary engine designed to date. Just like the on-board PC.

RETed

Once you get the engine in, how you going to control it?&nbsp Stock RX-8 ECU?&nbsp Stand-alone?&nbsp Either was is going to cost BUCKS or a lot of work and effort to tune...

The damn engine isn't even released yet.&nbsp Why you worried about a swap from a $30k+ car (after dealer gouging) that you WON'T be able to afford???

You're betting off doing a turbo 13BT engine swap or slapping a turbo on your NA engine at this point... :P

Hell, I think a B18C5 IT-R swap is a lot cheaper at this point.



-Ted

rico05

Well, clousborne, I am glad too see we have a millionaire here on the board, cuz you better be if you want to make this work. If you have the tools, electrics, and a Mechanical Engineering degree from MIT, then go for it. $5k is WWWAAAAYYYY off. Try at LEAST $5-6k for the engine alone, more than likely closer to $9k. Remember...it is a brand new engine. It is not a crate 350. There are no wharehouses with RENEISS sitting around. Man, I am not rying to be an ***, but if it takes thousands for MAJOR companies to invent ways to fit a 10 year old engine design (20B) into a 11+ year old car, then I really dobut you can do it in a weekend. I dobut a Haltech or AEM will work, and building your own ECU would be fun, but remember, you make that fuel map too lean..."BOOM". Bye-bye RENEISS, time to fork out another $9k for another new engine from your friendly local Mazda dealer. Go pull your ECU. Take a look at it. See all of the little transistors and solder points? It took some Mazda engineer years to get that right, and thousands of Mazda's dollars to get it done. Wiring a system is child's play compared to a complicated engine management computer. You ever built your own PC? I mean from scratch...blank silicon and a soldering iron? I didn't think so. I know the idea sound fun, but it will take years and thousands of dollars for any major company to figure this out. Good luck doing this in your backyard, and on your spare time...But who knows, mabye one day, I will eat these words!!

cluosborne

You'd be surprised.

But bear in mind, I'm months away from graduating with a Bachelors in computer science. I'm going to be repairing damage to my Rx-7, from a minor collision, with the help of a friend. I have a copy of the factory service manual on my system, and I've realized that, given time, anything is possible.

At the risk of shooting down other naysayers, I agree with your opinions. It will not be cheap, it will not bolt in, and it will not plug in.

That's another attraction: hot rodding. Oh, and my time table for upgrading my car is in years, not months.

I'll end with this quote:

Jim McConnell: We're millions of miles from Earth inside a giant white face. What's impossible?

"Mission to Mars," 2000

cluosborne

BTW, I'm not a millionaire, and I've never been to MIT.

RETed

What is that exactly supposed to mean?
Does it mean you're doing an engine swap just because you think you can?

Or does it mean you're looking for more power?&nbsp If you're looking for gobs of power, the MSP-RE is not the engine to look at - sure 250hp sounds like a lot, but not even 150lb/ft of torque is pitiful.&nbsp A STOCK 20B will SMOKE your conversion stock and cost significantly less money, time, and effort.

It really sounds like you're tunnel-vision'd at this point, and you're not going to listen to any critics...so why are we bothering?



-Ted

rico05

Good call Ted, as usual. The 20B is the all around killer engine. With your logic, build a 4 rotor. If you are wanting A/C, then you might as well get a TII, and never expect to break 13's in the quarter mile. If you are dedicated to speed and uncompromising power, you CANNOT beat the 20B. As Ted already said, it would kill any RENEISS out there. Plus, as I already said, it has a faithful after-market in Japan, Australia, a a limited one here in USA. Look around the 20B forum. You just might change your mind!!

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/forumd...ne=&forumid=95
http://www.3rotor.com/index.htm

cluosborne

First, thank you for your responses. I do agree that the 20B is a powerful engine, and that it makes far more power than the Renesis as well as being proven swap material.

I also agree that it will not be cheap nor easy to do.

What I meant about my time table being in years rather than months is that yes, I want to do the swap because I think I can. I like to build things that work.

What I'm looking for in swapping in a Renesis is akin to swapping a modern fuel-injected engine in a 60-70s era muscle car: a car with modern performance and features wrapped in a vintage body.

As or controlling the engine, it'll either be the factory ECU (which would be a pain to get working) or an aftermarket ECU.

In addition to the engine, I also want to upgrade the suspension, the interior (seats, steering wheel, shift ****, door panels), exhaust, and some electrical upgrades to accomodate the planned mobile computer I want to build (which can allow the driver to access an aftermarket fuel computer and tune it without needing a laptop).

I started the thread because I wanted to hear your thoughts on the subject. You have expressed your opinions, and your points for why such a swap would not necessarily be worth it are valid ones.

Right now, I'm not going to do the swap. I have neither the money nor the time to do it. In the future, maybe within five years, I'll do it, or something similar. A lot can happen in five years.

So, once again, thank you. Rest assured that I did listen to you all, and that I do not have tunnel vision (perfect 20/20) :-)