blue87

iTrader: (2)

I am getting ready to start a full re-build of my base model 87' S4 engine and 5spd trans.

I want to build this as a fun daily driver so I am going for fun but the main focus is relaibility.

This is what I was thinking of trying but I am open to suggestions some of the stuff I have and will be using from my old engine, and some stuff I need to buy.

Irons:
S4 6port all seem to be good, I already street ported using templates from racing beat.

Rotors:
I was going to go S5 but am having trouble getting a good set at an affordable price.

I have two great S4 rotors, S4 and S5 flywheel, S4 and S5 front counter weights. I will go S5 if I can find a good pair of rotors, but otherwise I will stick with my S4 rotors, they appear to be in great shape.

Am I dumb to consider using S4 rather than looking for S5 rotors while I have it all open..

All non-apex Seals:
will go all new mazda seals (already have most of them), FD corner springs etc.

Apex seals:
I think in my gut I should use Mazda seals, but the rotary aviation seals are tempting, would like to save some cheddar...

Bearings:
All new bearings, for relaibilty is there anything to gain on a street car to go 3 window for the stationary ot competition for the rotors? or are these mostly for high rev engines? Do you also need to increase oil pressure with 3 window bearings and competition rotor bearings?

Housings:
I can't decide if I should re-use my housings or maybe but some of those cermet coated ones... I haven't heard much about them lately... the S4 NA cermet coated ones are actually quite affordable about half the price of new...

Emissions equipment:
Not sure but thinking about removing most of it, but then my 5/6 port actuators won't work? I don't know, what are your thoughts on this? It would be nice to have less complexity and more room in the engine compartment.

Exhaust:
I have a stainless true dual header I bought a while ago from mazda competition at the time. I might weld up a nice stainless collector and make a pre-silencer.

Catalyst:
I currently have the dual Bonez high flow units, I need to see if they are damaged from all of the oil burning on my old engine. Maybe I will remove them, but if I do should I insert another muffler, I don't want it to be to loud if I am going to use this as a daily driver...

Trans:
I plan on opening and replacing the syncros, from what I remember it shifted nicely but felt like the syncros were going... not to mention I like to "practice" shifting without the clutch a lot so I think they may be in sad shape...

Clutch:
I will use some sort of street/strip unit with a slightly heavier pressure plate spring, would like to upgrade a little since I have to replace it anyway (lost the old one in a move) but don't want it to be a bear to drive.. of course new pilot bearing and throw out bearing.

Is there anything else I should consider while doing this, I don't want to break the bank, but I don't want to regret not spending a little extra while I have it all open ...

Is there anythng I suggested that sounds stoopid? What are your thoughts?

Thanks

2_3D_SC

I'll take a crack at this. I know I don't have a lot of posts but I do spend a lot of time researching this stuff. Disclaimer your results may vary. Note;this is my first multi quote post.

You have a complete S4 engine. The S5 rotors are about a 1/2 pound lighter each and will increase compression by .3. IMO it is not worth the hassle of finding 2 matching S5 rotors in GC. You can reduce rotating mass a lot easier by getting a light weight flywheel.

I have heard good things about the RA seals. Mazda OEM are also good, however I think they are 3 pc and the RA seals are 2 pc. I prefer 2 pc apex seals myself(last longer) again IMO

For a street car I would think the stock ones are fine. You do know that you will have to get new stationary gears if you decide on the 3 window brgs.

This is some good info on whether to replace your rotor housings or not. If you do replace them the S5 housings will last much longer due to changes Mazda made in the chrome and only cost about $50 more eachhttp://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/rotorhsg.htm the Cermet coated "B" housings are $375. for $400 total more you can have new Mazda OEM. Also for $28 more you can get the turbo housings which flow much better on the exhaust side.
Check here for emissions removal

Exhaust is something that varies widely in terms of ears of the beholder, however if you do remove the cats you will probably want to add a pre-silencer to keep the noise levels down(unless you hate your neighbors and like the attention from the local LEO's)

IMO if it ain't broke don't fix it. A lot of times the clutch master cyl. gets weak and will affect the quality of shifts. I just changed my clutch master cylinder for this reason. It was using fluid, but I could not find a leak. after replacing the CMC, I noticed a big improvement in shift feel.
Again IMO I would stick with a stock type disc(not a puck type) and get a beefier pressure plate. An NA rotary does not put out a lot of torque, stock or modified.

Two things I would add is getting the fuel injectors cleaned and replace the OMP lines, even if they didn't break when you removed them.

blue87

iTrader: (2)

Hey 2 3d sc thanks for the reply, you make some good points!

I think you make a good point on this one... do the heavier rotors cause more flexing of the e-shaft and limit the redline to 7k or is it just overall balancing of the assembly...?

The 2 piece ones seem to make more sense ... I think the new mazda oem ones are 2 piece now? I may still go RA, I wonder if it is worth more for the "super" ones?

I think I will go with the stock bearings... but would the comp bearings hold up to more load if I turbo this thing in the future? or are the comp bearings more for higher rpm??


I will have to look into the S5 turbo housings.. maybe I can sell some stuff I have lying aroung to pay for the diff to go with new s5 turbo housings...

Yeah a guy I work with always says don't kick it if you don't want to smell it... I think I should probably leave all the non engine stuff stock at first in case I have any problems so I can track them down more easily... I will probably do the same for the exhaust, stay stock at first. and probably the stock type clutch like you sad.. it would be a pain to drive otherwise...

Oh yeah! I can't forget those things too... good idea!

Thanks again for the reply!

arghx

iTrader: (3)

waste of money. I made 172rwhp all motor on an s4 and would continuously run 30-60 minutes at a time on a race track with 150k mile bearings.

good condition housings and tight clearances will make a bigger difference than anything else you have suggested (s5 rotors for example)

2_3D_SC

The difference in redline between S4 and S5 is due to the intake manifold and ECU tuning. There is no reason you can't rev an S4 to 7k it's just that with a stock S4 intake you aren't making any power above 6.5K IMO opinion the work involved to switch to an S5 intake just isn't worth it (I say this because I just did an S5 TO S5 NA swap on my 89 GXL and had to remove the TB and UIM to repair some vacuum leaks and it was a PITA compared to an S4)

From the reseach I have done (and this has been dyno tested) all of the gains from an S5 intake swap are from 6-7k. I feel that if you wanted to improve the upper RPM breathing of an S4 intake you could get almost the same results by porting and gasket matching the intake manifold.


Oh yeah! I can't forget those things too... good idea!

Thanks again for the reply![/QUOTE]

blue87

iTrader: (2)

Thought I would bring this back from the dead since I have actually made some progress...

I decided to go in a totally new direction... My awesome wife let me buy an FD a couple of months ago which I have always wanted... Around the same time my brother in law and myself decided to fix up the FC so he could have the rotary experience too...

We both thought it would be fun to learn how to paint a car and he had already bought some paint for a work truck he sold and the FC cant get any worse than the condition it already is in (18000 pieces and no paint stripped to the bare metal)

So I will post some pics of our progress here.

We epoxy primed the body with ppg deltron to seal it after extensive cleaning

then light body glaze on belmished sand and repeat... after all said and done 1 gallon of primer and 3 coats later it is bulletproff and darn straight...

then we used eastwood single stage urethane tunnel ram metallic gray 2 coats.

one coat of color mixed 50 50 with clear to increase the metallic depth

then 2 coats of clear with the last one thinned to lay smooth...

we also taped off some racing stripes to give it a unique look. we sprayed some clear on the tape before the color to prevent beed under the tape.

We still need to wet sand the fine dust and a few bugs out since we sprayed in my barn... but I am so happy with how it came out for a first try with the blind leading the blind...

we learned how to spray watching you tube... I tell you what painters are cracked out, I think they breathe too many fumes, some of the videos are funny as hell!

blue87

iTrader: (2)

Here are some pics after the 1st coat of primer b4 any body work... we just wanted everything sealed so it didn't rust...

blue87

iTrader: (2)

Here are some pics of what she looks like in the final color...

Again it still needs a good wet sanding but not bad for a first time painting ever!

I had to sell some of the go fast parts from the FC to fund my new FD habit, but we are going to rebuild the old engine with most of the origianl hard parts and all new soft seals.

After taking the old engine apart and removing the 1/2 inch of carbon I realized the old blown oil seals preserved most of the stock parts in a nice oil capsule

All of the lightly used low mileage parts I bought as replacements looked worse than our 128k parts! go figure, the NA 13b is a relaibility beast if treated correctly...

I will have to school my brother in law in how to beat the cr@p out of this car daily to prevent carbon build up

I will try to post some pics after sanding and through the mechanical build! hope you enjoy.