Rebuild research, pricing, findings, and questions.
08-19-04, 01:38 AM
#1
s4 for life
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Rebuild research, pricing, findings, and questions.
1987 T2. 130k miles, original engine. low compression on rear rotor. 100psi front, 85 rear.
After a few days of reseach and pricing I have come to the decision of buying a rebuild kit from Rotary Aviation (RA). They use 2 mm seals that are harder than others from my research. This means they will take longer to break in. I am hoping they will be a little more durable. If not, oh well.
Full rebuild kit= 997+8(s/h)= $1005
I also plan on buying an engine gasket set from RA. They say it is REQUIRED for installation in a car. Could it be done without it? Reuse old gaskets or use RTV? Probably, but I am doing it once, doing it right.
Engine gasket set= $118+8(s/h)= $126
I will buy a rebuild video from Atkins. I will watch this sucka alot.
Rebuild video= $30
Intake and exhaust street port templets from Racing Beat (RB). I love porting! I already have all the porting tools. If you don't you can buy them from RB.
Street port templete= $39
Exhaust street port templete= $23
I will also be porting my intake manifold (gasket matching). This will cost me nothing because I already have the tools.
The total comes to $1,223. Add a few for shipping the video and templetes. Add on coolant flush, oil change, ect the whole deal will come in at about $1,250 for parts.
If anyone has any suggestions on what else to do while rebuilding please let me know. Is there anything I have missed that I HAVE to do? If you have any better places to get this stuff let me know!
Steve (ST3 son.... it's not that hard)
After a few days of reseach and pricing I have come to the decision of buying a rebuild kit from Rotary Aviation (RA). They use 2 mm seals that are harder than others from my research. This means they will take longer to break in. I am hoping they will be a little more durable. If not, oh well.
Full rebuild kit= 997+8(s/h)= $1005
I also plan on buying an engine gasket set from RA. They say it is REQUIRED for installation in a car. Could it be done without it? Reuse old gaskets or use RTV? Probably, but I am doing it once, doing it right.
Engine gasket set= $118+8(s/h)= $126
I will buy a rebuild video from Atkins. I will watch this sucka alot.
Rebuild video= $30
Intake and exhaust street port templets from Racing Beat (RB). I love porting! I already have all the porting tools. If you don't you can buy them from RB.
Street port templete= $39
Exhaust street port templete= $23
I will also be porting my intake manifold (gasket matching). This will cost me nothing because I already have the tools.
The total comes to $1,223. Add a few for shipping the video and templetes. Add on coolant flush, oil change, ect the whole deal will come in at about $1,250 for parts.
If anyone has any suggestions on what else to do while rebuilding please let me know. Is there anything I have missed that I HAVE to do? If you have any better places to get this stuff let me know!
Steve (ST3 son.... it's not that hard)
08-19-04, 03:25 AM
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You don't need that kit, that's the Master kit and comes with a lot more stuff than you'll probably need. Just get the basic kit. Or in fact, pull your engine and inspect everything and see what really needs to be replaced, and then buy things separetly or in a kit, whatever is cheapest. I bet if you got the Master kit you'd end up replacing some things that may not need it.
Side note, I'll be doing this soon. Just got my RA rebuild video in the mail, I'm going to be tearing the motor apart for porting and I'm just going to inspect everything and see if anything needs replacing. Supposedly it has a rebuild on it like 20-30k ago, but I dunno if I'm gonna believe the dealership I bought it from. Runs great, has no problems at ALL enginewise, so we'll see.
Side note, I'll be doing this soon. Just got my RA rebuild video in the mail, I'm going to be tearing the motor apart for porting and I'm just going to inspect everything and see if anything needs replacing. Supposedly it has a rebuild on it like 20-30k ago, but I dunno if I'm gonna believe the dealership I bought it from. Runs great, has no problems at ALL enginewise, so we'll see.
08-19-04, 04:17 AM
#4
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Since you have an '87, the ONLY gasket you need is the turbo oil drain flange.
Almost everything else can silicone RTV'd.
If you have a Kouki (turbo) FC, you NEED the front (oil) cover gasket to support the white plastic ring for the oil o-ring.
Since you're on a budget, why even bother paying for an entire kit?
On a budget rebuild, you only need to buy a few parts + apex seals...
-Ted
Almost everything else can silicone RTV'd.
If you have a Kouki (turbo) FC, you NEED the front (oil) cover gasket to support the white plastic ring for the oil o-ring.
Since you're on a budget, why even bother paying for an entire kit?
On a budget rebuild, you only need to buy a few parts + apex seals...
-Ted
08-19-04, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RETed
Since you have an '87, the ONLY gasket you need is the turbo oil drain flange.
Almost everything else can silicone RTV'd.
If you have a Kouki (turbo) FC, you NEED the front (oil) cover gasket to support the white plastic ring for the oil o-ring.
Since you're on a budget, why even bother paying for an entire kit?
On a budget rebuild, you only need to buy a few parts + apex seals...
-Ted
Almost everything else can silicone RTV'd.
If you have a Kouki (turbo) FC, you NEED the front (oil) cover gasket to support the white plastic ring for the oil o-ring.
Since you're on a budget, why even bother paying for an entire kit?
On a budget rebuild, you only need to buy a few parts + apex seals...
-Ted
08-19-04, 06:36 AM
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08-19-04, 07:02 AM
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I have an S5 N/A and I'm trying to do a budget rebuild also. I have 60psi in the rear rotor and 90 in the front. Is it likely I could get by with atkins basic gaket kit and a set of apex seals from rotory aviation? I need to order the apex seals soon as they are going on vaction. Then just buy any parts as needed?
Apex Seals & Springs 182.00
Atkins Kit for 165.00
Themal Pellet 8.50
Front & Rear Main Seals $10
Total 365 + shipping
Does it sound like I've missed anything?
Apex Seals & Springs 182.00
Atkins Kit for 165.00
Themal Pellet 8.50
Front & Rear Main Seals $10
Total 365 + shipping
Does it sound like I've missed anything?
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08-19-04, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingofl337
I have an S5 N/A and I'm trying to do a budget rebuild also. I have 60psi in the rear rotor and 90 in the front. Is it likely I could get by with atkins basic gaket kit and a set of apex seals from rotory aviation? I need to order the apex seals soon as they are going on vaction. Then just buy any parts as needed?
Apex Seals & Springs 182.00
Atkins Kit for 165.00
Themal Pellet 8.50
Front & Rear Main Seals $10
Total 365 + shipping
Does it sound like I've missed anything?
Apex Seals & Springs 182.00
Atkins Kit for 165.00
Themal Pellet 8.50
Front & Rear Main Seals $10
Total 365 + shipping
Does it sound like I've missed anything?
If you're tearing it down you reallyneed a o-ring set, with the combustion and water jacket o-rings. It wouldn't hurt to get the tensioning bolt orings too. The ones from RA are nice, as you can take it apart again, without buring those orings.
From what I understand (and did!), a budget engine rebuild ALWAYS consists of the soft seal kit (o-rings), Apex Seals & springs, thermal pellet mod, main seals, and then whatever else needs replacing.
edit: Just when I thought I was being helpful, RETed shows up with his damn list of everything to check/replace. Thanks for making me look bad, Ted!
Last edited by WonkoTheSane; 08-19-04 at 07:36 AM.
08-19-04, 07:38 AM
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i think its both coolant seals and external gaskets. They don't list the contents on the site. But it looks like coolant seals are in it.
I'm going to call and ask for a complete list of gaskets.
I'm also going to add FD corner springs to the rebuild.
I'm going to call and ask for a complete list of gaskets.
I'm also going to add FD corner springs to the rebuild.
Last edited by Kingofl337; 08-19-04 at 07:40 AM.
08-19-04, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Kingofl337
i think its both coolant seals and external gaskets. They don't list the contents on the site. But it looks like coolant seals are in it.
I'm going to call and ask for a complete list of gaskets.
I'm also going to add FD corner springs to the rebuild.
I'm going to call and ask for a complete list of gaskets.
I'm also going to add FD corner springs to the rebuild.
I have a Rotary Aviation basic kit on the way for my other engine. As said before, the Master kit comes with a lot of stuff you probably won't need, like the oil pump chain. Best advice is to do like someone said earlier and disassemble the engine first, then see what you need.
08-19-04, 08:25 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane
edit: Just when I thought I was being helpful, RETed shows up with his damn list of everything to check/replace. Thanks for making me look bad, Ted!
I was working on that page, since I'm helping another guy with the same question.
This thread popped up, and it was just timing on my part.
-Ted
08-19-04, 09:43 AM
#13
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Are you still working on it Ted? I'm interested in the rest of the prices that aren't up yet. If you don't put them up, I can just find them myself, but you know the best brands and such.
08-19-04, 10:11 AM
#14
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Yeah, I'm still tracking down part numbers and prices.
Most of the stuff you can get from Mazdatrix, but some of Mazdatrix part numbers are wrong.
I had a list of current prices somewhere, but I have seemed to have lost it.
-Ted
Most of the stuff you can get from Mazdatrix, but some of Mazdatrix part numbers are wrong.
I had a list of current prices somewhere, but I have seemed to have lost it.
-Ted
08-19-04, 10:40 AM
#16
Lives on the Forum
"Doing it once, and doing it right"- If that's the case, 13Bpower, might want to look into some new rotor housings. You'll see what I'm talking about when you get yours apart
I spent $2600+ on my recent rebuild, because I wanted to "do it right". If you start thinking about keeping everything under an imaginary budget line, then you're "doing it as right as you can", lol...
I haven't seen Ted's list, yet, but I'll bet mine was much longer. I know there are guys out there that don't have $1000 to plop down on rotor housings, I understand...But the simple fact of the matter is, the rotor housings wear just as much, if not more, than the apex seals. (I'm including depths of the ubiquitous material removal at the edges here as wear, because it is...)...Would you rebuild a V-8 with just piston rings and not be concerned about the bore wear? Of course not, then it wouldn't be considered an overhaul in my book. So, there are actually two DIFFERENT versions of what we do to our engines- there's an OVERHAUL (all the parts that wear are refurbished to a "like new" condition), and there's a REBUILD (throw some new apex seals & a couple of springs & rubber seals at it & hope for the best). Which one do YOU want to accomplish?
OK, that's my rant for the day
I spent $2600+ on my recent rebuild, because I wanted to "do it right". If you start thinking about keeping everything under an imaginary budget line, then you're "doing it as right as you can", lol...
I haven't seen Ted's list, yet, but I'll bet mine was much longer. I know there are guys out there that don't have $1000 to plop down on rotor housings, I understand...But the simple fact of the matter is, the rotor housings wear just as much, if not more, than the apex seals. (I'm including depths of the ubiquitous material removal at the edges here as wear, because it is...)...Would you rebuild a V-8 with just piston rings and not be concerned about the bore wear? Of course not, then it wouldn't be considered an overhaul in my book. So, there are actually two DIFFERENT versions of what we do to our engines- there's an OVERHAUL (all the parts that wear are refurbished to a "like new" condition), and there's a REBUILD (throw some new apex seals & a couple of springs & rubber seals at it & hope for the best). Which one do YOU want to accomplish?
OK, that's my rant for the day
08-19-04, 01:13 PM
#17
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally Posted by WAYNE88N/A
"Doing it once, and doing it right"- If that's the case, 13Bpower, might want to look into some new rotor housings. You'll see what I'm talking about when you get yours apart
I spent $2600+ on my recent rebuild, because I wanted to "do it right". If you start thinking about keeping everything under an imaginary budget line, then you're "doing it as right as you can", lol...
I haven't seen Ted's list, yet, but I'll bet mine was much longer. I know there are guys out there that don't have $1000 to plop down on rotor housings, I understand...But the simple fact of the matter is, the rotor housings wear just as much, if not more, than the apex seals. (I'm including depths of the ubiquitous material removal at the edges here as wear, because it is...)...Would you rebuild a V-8 with just piston rings and not be concerned about the bore wear? Of course not, then it wouldn't be considered an overhaul in my book. So, there are actually two DIFFERENT versions of what we do to our engines- there's an OVERHAUL (all the parts that wear are refurbished to a "like new" condition), and there's a REBUILD (throw some new apex seals & a couple of springs & rubber seals at it & hope for the best). Which one do YOU want to accomplish?
OK, that's my rant for the day
I spent $2600+ on my recent rebuild, because I wanted to "do it right". If you start thinking about keeping everything under an imaginary budget line, then you're "doing it as right as you can", lol...
I haven't seen Ted's list, yet, but I'll bet mine was much longer. I know there are guys out there that don't have $1000 to plop down on rotor housings, I understand...But the simple fact of the matter is, the rotor housings wear just as much, if not more, than the apex seals. (I'm including depths of the ubiquitous material removal at the edges here as wear, because it is...)...Would you rebuild a V-8 with just piston rings and not be concerned about the bore wear? Of course not, then it wouldn't be considered an overhaul in my book. So, there are actually two DIFFERENT versions of what we do to our engines- there's an OVERHAUL (all the parts that wear are refurbished to a "like new" condition), and there's a REBUILD (throw some new apex seals & a couple of springs & rubber seals at it & hope for the best). Which one do YOU want to accomplish?
OK, that's my rant for the day
And don't forget lapping the plates... you want nice smooth plates to rest against those seals.
08-19-04, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Icemark
Yep, that pretty much covers it... rebuild or refurbish...
And don't forget lapping the plates... you want nice smooth plates to rest against those seals.
And don't forget lapping the plates... you want nice smooth plates to rest against those seals.
08-19-04, 01:38 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by incendui
I've heard people say lapping removes a coating mazda put on the metal, and should only be done when necessary. Any truth to this?
One thing to watch for is that the water o-ring groove on the '86-'04 13B (not the Renesis) is on the plate, and not the rotor housing like on previous (and Renesis) enignes. This means that you can only lap the plates a few times befor the groove becomes too shallow.
08-19-04, 04:54 PM
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Reted mentions toque washers on his site does anyone know if the Atkins kit includes those?
So, as far as the Apex Seals go for the rotor. I need apex seals, apex seals springs,corner seals, and corner seal set.
I wish I could spend 2k on a motor but I have a very limited budget and I'm just trying to get the car running.
Aaron what was the part you had to replace on your rebuild that was out of spec at the end of your rebuilld for endplay? I'll just replace that to make sure.
So, as far as the Apex Seals go for the rotor. I need apex seals, apex seals springs,corner seals, and corner seal set.
I wish I could spend 2k on a motor but I have a very limited budget and I'm just trying to get the car running.
Aaron what was the part you had to replace on your rebuild that was out of spec at the end of your rebuilld for endplay? I'll just replace that to make sure.
08-19-04, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by incendui
I've heard people say lapping removes a coating mazda put on the metal, and should only be done when necessary. Any truth to this?
It can be redone to lapped housings, at home in your oven....Max
08-19-04, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Maxthe7man
Its not really a coating, but a procedure done to the metal surface with chemicals..
It can be redone to lapped housings, at home in your oven....Max
It can be redone to lapped housings, at home in your oven....Max
08-20-04, 12:31 AM
#23
s4 for life
Thread Starter
Thanks for the info guys. I actually was debating buying new rotor housings. I never said I was on a budget. I just don't want to waste money. I have no problem dropping $2500 on the rebuild if it will make a stronger, better engine.
I will probably buy the whole kit because one, I am not familiar enough with the enternals of the engine to be inspecting and deciding what I need to buy. Two, I want the extperience of rebuilding the whole engine so the next one I rebuild I will be able to make the decision on reusing parts. Three I am going to beating the **** out of this engine. The T2's daily driver duties are over, now I have something LESS reliable than a T2 as a the DD. Next place it will be is on a track and tearing up the roads on the weekends.
Lapping! I live near 2 rotary shops so I can get that done there. Atkins and Hayes are withing an hours drive. Anyone know how much that runs. Am I look at another $40... $200? I have no Idea.
I will probably buy the whole kit because one, I am not familiar enough with the enternals of the engine to be inspecting and deciding what I need to buy. Two, I want the extperience of rebuilding the whole engine so the next one I rebuild I will be able to make the decision on reusing parts. Three I am going to beating the **** out of this engine. The T2's daily driver duties are over, now I have something LESS reliable than a T2 as a the DD. Next place it will be is on a track and tearing up the roads on the weekends.
Lapping! I live near 2 rotary shops so I can get that done there. Atkins and Hayes are withing an hours drive. Anyone know how much that runs. Am I look at another $40... $200? I have no Idea.
08-20-04, 10:36 AM
#24
Rotary Enthusiast
Your research looks good and Ted poseted an excellent outline but don't forget about all the nickle and dime stuff. If this is your first rebuild you may need to purchase some things that you may not have laying around in the garage such as:
Engine stand
Flywheel Nut socket
Flywheel brace bar
Torque wrenches?
Inspection tools? Calipers, inside micrometers, dial indicator, etc
Chemicals such as loctite, hylomar, paint, silicone, carb cleaner, etc...
Disposables such as wire brushes, shop towels, assembly lube, etc...
Depending on what you have available to you in your garage or via friends, the 'small stuff' could end up being a considerable amount. The good news is that the rebuild video will outline everything that you need.
Good luck with the project!
Engine stand
Flywheel Nut socket
Flywheel brace bar
Torque wrenches?
Inspection tools? Calipers, inside micrometers, dial indicator, etc
Chemicals such as loctite, hylomar, paint, silicone, carb cleaner, etc...
Disposables such as wire brushes, shop towels, assembly lube, etc...
Depending on what you have available to you in your garage or via friends, the 'small stuff' could end up being a considerable amount. The good news is that the rebuild video will outline everything that you need.
Good luck with the project!
