BhamBill

Back to the topic at hand. I've noticed that the DTSS is helpful in autocross with street tires, but with race tires I don't even feel it. Apparently it has to do with the quick building of G forces with the race tires. It just jumps through the toe-out right into the toe-in because of the additional stick of the tires.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

I'm getting rather sick of this, so this is the last time I will respond.

1. Nascar race 2 weekends ago, I watched about 10 laps. In that time the announcers (Daryl Waltrip?) explained in very plain redneck language how in Nascar they make the car have a touch of overstear in even the race setup.

2. When I was 13 I could have told you what I've stated before. That was because of computer racing simulations. So, if you would like to learn this, I suggest you obtain a joystick (or wheel) and download a racing simulation for you computer. Even Nascar I or IndycarII will suffice for this demonstration. Turn off all drving aids and do some laps with the easy newbie setup. Then do some laps with the qualifying setup. You will notice the car is VERY unstable in the qualifying setup. Once you are performing competent laps, you'll notice that when you crash it will be from excess overstear and not usually from understear. Wheel spin isn't even modeled in those early games, yet they demonstrate what I've been saying.

RETed

You're already showing how inexperienced you are telling me to use a driving simulator...

I do my driving and testing in my own car and other cars on the road and on the track.&nbsp Go get some real driving experiences before you go telling when I know and what I don't know.

You still don't have any clue what you're talking about.

An oversteering chassis will turn faster, but you need the skill to control such oversteer.&nbsp NASCAR is a joke - you call that racing?&nbsp You wanna go around in a circle where you KNOW you're going to turn left - it's obvious to see why an oversteering chassis is the choice of these "racers".&nbsp Why don't you go listen to them NASCAR commentators when they get their asses on a REAL track, like Sears Point.

You're so thick in the head that you're obviously not reading what I'm typing.&nbsp Take identical drivers skill in two different cars on a track that you've never been on - I put money the understeering chassis will go faster, period.



-Ted

tmak26b

I think people who want a car to oversteer a lot watch Initial D way too much...

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Server busy, so I lost my original post...

ReTed, perhaps if your dissatisfied with my lack of response, you should try posting in a less insulting manner. I have read and considered everything you've posted. For instance, I do agree that you don't want gobs of overstear at the very start of a corner. You do need to keep it together on entry. Hense I say "a touch of oversteer." And no, I don't push the front tires otherwise. A fast setup is not 100% stable. However, I still maintain if you were to give one characteristic to corner behaviour, that oversteer would be your choice.

While we're analyzing what the other one is doing, I don't think you can totally ignore Mike Ancas. Did he learn nothing in all his experience?

As for racing simulations, I honestly cannot come up with another way to prove to you what I've been saying. Surely racing simulations are not totally without merrit or many F1 drivers would not list them as favorite hobies. eg. JB, JPM, JV

Lets say for a minuite I've never driven a car in my life, I've only driven on a computer. Does this mean I'm wrong? Were the simulations not based on physics? Were the qualifying setups not actually inducing oversteer?

What is your background dealing with race setups?

(I feel myself regressing) Why do you think overstear desired on an oval then? (we're not just talking about stagger)

RETed

Perhaps you didn't read a previous post of mine about being cordial.&nbsp If you didn't, then here's a quick summary.&nbsp I am not here to babysit anyone.&nbsp I am not here to hold people by the hand.&nbsp I am not perfect.&nbsp I do get razzed by people who claim one thing, when it's totally the opposite in real life...especially when MY experience have confirmed the same.

You don't seem to see the big picture.&nbsp Ancas is a peon compared to Paul Frere.&nbsp Paul Frere was a World Driving Champion for Formula 1.&nbsp Paul Frere did testing on the FC3S development by the request of Mazda Corp.&nbsp It comes down to resumes and experience - it's obvious (at least to me) that Paul Frere hsa a much more skilled background that Ancas does.&nbsp That's all that matters to me.

Simulations are exactly that - it is NO substitute for the real thing.&nbsp Maybe you'll get the chance to ask these drivers if simulations are the SAME as driving in the real world.&nbsp I'd bet they all would say "no."

Yes, you are wrong.&nbsp There is NOTHING that beats actual real-world experience.&nbsp It's like claiming if you trained on a Boeing 747 simulator all your life - could you step into a real live 747 and be able to fly it?&nbsp We're talking take-off and landing here.&nbsp If you claim you can, I'll call you a liar everytime.&nbsp Simulations are based on physics, yes, but you can't get it into to your stubborn head that it's not replacement for real world experience.


Beyond my car, testing on FC's at Laguna Seca and Thunderhill Raceways.


You need a detail answer to that question?&nbsp On an oval, you KNOW you're going to make only LEFT turns.&nbsp You can SEE the turns coming at you (i.e. no blind turns).&nbsp You only have to turn four TIMES for one lap.&nbsp This makes for a pretty predictable pattern of racing.&nbsp This means you WILL set the car up to do one thing only - turn left.&nbsp With a road course, you have left AND right turns.&nbsp These turns are not only visible, but there are blind turns also sometimes.&nbsp On top of that, you've got decreasing radius, increasing radius, and compound curves - there is NO ONE suspension set-up that will go through all these turns at 100%.&nbsp The suspension set-up ends up being a compromise - the compromise being whatever runs the fastest LAP.&nbsp This compromise usually means slight understeer.&nbsp If you never read my post from the beginning, an understeering chassis is a stable system.&nbsp Who wants an unstable system like an oversteering one???&nbsp With too many variables, the more stable your chassis, the more confident you can drive.

If you start out with an oversteering chassis, it is always going to oversteer.&nbsp When you start with an understeering chassis, you can always induce oversteer with trail braking or power oversteer inputs.

Before you go pointing fingers at me and accusing me of being wrong, go read more books on performance driving.&nbsp I'm obviously wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.&nbsp Like I said before, I highly recommend reading Skip Barbers driving handbook Going Faster!.

Didn't you say you were going to stay out of this thread already?



-Ted

Scott 89t2

hey ted do you still have Dale T's long post about his track testing last week? you should post it up I del mine already.

the more it under steered the faster the lap times got.

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Yes I did, but just like you I can't resist.

I'm not trying to say Ancas is better than Frere, I just think there is some logic in the words.

You're taking a rather wierd all or nothing approach to the idea of modeling a real world event...

Please explain the difference between a qualifying and race setup, with respect to handling in something like F1.

Ofcourse you're under no obligation to respond.

Scott 89t2

here I found it, gota love web back up

yaya, it's long, but I already cut half off LOL.


". Albert had a couple of new toys for the car. One of those pyrometers
that has a memory from Longacre and a new radio set-up as well as one of
the Hutchin's devices. We monkey with the radios for a bit to get them
set-up. Check the car over again and get ready for the first session.
The session went pretty good with nothing scary. When Albert pulls in, I
jump on the car with the new pyrometer and we are both taken aback with
the tire temps. We had started out with 1 degree neg. castor and 3/16
toe-out in the front, .3 neg. camber in the rear with 0 toe. I'm looking
at the tire temps and because all we were after was a certain temp range
across the tire, I move the fronts to .5 degree camber in the front and
leave the rear alone. My golden rule is ONE change at a time. The next
session is even better. Not as fast as we've gone before, but good
enough to better a couple other Formula Mazda's that beat us last year!
I start poking tires and can't believe the temps! Not even close to what
I was after. Albert is complaining of understeer. Now, my experience
with GT cars, Street cars and Autox cars told me to add toe-out to the
front as well as more negative camber. The pyrometer was telling me to
do just the opposite. Hmmm do I do what I know is correct or do I do
something I think is wrong? Well, this is testing, we aren't worried
about a good qualifying position so I set the rear to 0 degree's camber.
The next session goes even better and the car is close to to our best
times at Thunderhill. I start poking tires as soon as the car stops. The
fronts are still off but the rears were just about right! Albert says
the car is still understeering. Albert and I both agree we should add
more camber to the front but the pyrometer is telling us to go more
positive. Geez, what do I do now? Well, this is testing. So I set the
fronts to 0 degree's. Albert heads back out for the next session and is
going really well but I'm starting to get a little worried because last
year, everytime we tested, we ended up putting the car on the trailer in
several pieces. I look at my stopwatch and HOLY CRIPES! a 1:51.64!!
That's almost a full second faster than we've ever gone here! Two laps
later a 1:50.16 pops up on the watch! That's good enough to win the last
race and about 3/4 of a second off the Formula Mazda track record! On
the next lap I lean over the pit wall and tell Albert to slow down. I'm
NOT putting it on the trailer in pieces today! Albert comes in and I
start poking tires as I casually tell Albert the times like it's no big
deal :-) He stares at me open mouthed and I start busting up :-) Albert
is saying the understeer is really bad and he was having to work pretty
hard but the tire temps were perfect and lap times don't lie. Hmmm my
instincts tell me to add some negative camber to the front to take out
the understeer. No, if I do that my tire temps will be off. Hmmm I know,
add some toe-out. No, if I do that, the tire temps will be off again.
Hmmmm The front bar is set full soft and so is the rear. I know, I'll
stiffen up the rear bar. No, if I do that, the car won't roll enough and
my temps will be off in the rear. What to do.... Well, this is testing
so let's do something completely different. Why not? it's been working
all day so far! So I decide to change the rake of the car. I give the
rears one turn and send Albert out for the last session. I'm watching
the car and it looks like it's glued to the track. Albert comes in and
says the car was great! The understeer was gone, he was going in deeper
on the brakes, cornering harder and getting on the gas earlier. But the
watch said he was close to a second slower. Hmmm... oh well, let's load
up and go get some Pizza! After Pizza, Albert heads for San Ramon and I
head for Nevada City. I'm trying to figure out why the car felt better
but was slower. Apparently so was Albert because about an hour later my
cell phone rings and Albert tells me that he just remembered that all
day he was hitting the rev limiter on both the front and back straights
but in the last session, he never hit it at all. Holy Cow! Just that
tiny bit of change in the rake changed the wing angles just enough to
slow the car down on the straights! Ya learn something new everytime you
get on the track. Now all the changes we made would not have even been
felt on the GT car and the Formula Mazda responded positively to each
one. It sure is amazing working on real race car like that! I guess I'm
going to instruct at as many street schools as I can so I can get more
free test days :-) The car is only about 15% developed and Albert is
still trying to figure out the HUGE difference from a race car with
fenders and a formula car that has adjustable everything plus ground
effects. I'm starting to think that when I get the car pretty well
developed, we might be looking at a Formula Mazda championship to add to
our 4 GT-3 Championships. Zoom, Zoom, Zoom"