von

Im am also curious. I have stock suspension and I am perfectly comfortable. I drift all the time and is predictable. I drift doing 80 somtimes but just a few degrees. Never jerky just predictable. I heard this thread and thought what is this going to do for me. I like my steering and feel that any changes will negativly affect my handling as for now. I have pushed my car too its limits and know exactly what speeds it will do around my areas on and off ramps , but

Someone said something about draging? So eliminating this will be better??? Traction wise?

tmak26b

For most people on the street, yes its faster to understeer. But for race car driver, understeer is a lot slower, but it also means you have a much easier day

Mykl

I would be more inclined to believe that the ideal suspension settings for a race car would depend on the conditions and the course. So how is it possible to say that understeer is a lot slower in all race conditions?

Back up your statement with some sort of explanation, I really don't understand it.

Also, how is it possible to be faster with understeer on the street and not for a race car driver? Do fundamental driving physics change that much between a race car and a street car?

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

It's easier to correct overstear when going you're going fast and are a skilled driver. Understear means your car won't do what you want it to do, period. Don't take that wrong, gobs of overstear makes it too tough to control.

[/B][/QUOTE]
Also, how is it possible to be faster with understeer on the street and not for a race car driver? Do fundamental driving physics change that much between a race car and a street car? [/B][/QUOTE]

A race car driver on the street will be better off with some overstear. The average joe isn't good with their car. Overstear to them is scary. If you're stuck with one condition or the other, overstear is more likely to cause you to wreck your car. Understear makes people slow down because they can't make the corner otherwise. In otherwords overstear comes with some risk.

Take Porsche 911s as an example. They've always been rear engined, and have been highly dominant in racing for a long time. Race car drivers love 911s. Back in the 70's there was a big problem with people buying a new 911 and smashing them on the first high speed turn on the autobaun. Have race car drivers had their heads up their asses for 50 years?

Audi TTs had this problem too. (not to the same extent) People kept mashing them on the autobaun when the back end would go on them. So audi added a rear wing and made the car more predictable. There wasn't really a big overstear problem, but the average driver couldn't handle the overstear worth crap.

InfiniIIIREX

Any drifters out there that eliminator their rear steer? Do like it better?

Mykl

When did this discussion turn to what an average person could do with a car? I thought it was about suspension settings that are ideal for going fast?

Yeah, understeer is more safe, but that doesn't mean that it's slower in all conditions when you're racing. ....and it's quite obvious that too much oversteer or understeer will get you into trouble, and probably expediate tire wear.

Any somewhat capable driver can handle a bit of oversteer without problems, but that doesn't mean they're going faster. But in some situations it may make them faster, although a good driver can induce oversteer in any car. But a car with a tendency to oversteer will limit throttle input and I'm sure we can all agree that less throttle means you aren't going as fast.

Another thing, the longer you keep all for wheels straight ahead, the faster you'll go around a road course. But if you're constantly in a state of counter steer due to oversteer then your wheels aren't straight.

In the end it comes down to driver preference. ...and my point is that it's very naive to say that any one suspension settup is ideal 100% of the time, regardless of conditions. You may be on a tight course and want a bit more oversteer to make it easier to point the car with the throttle (assuming RWD), or it could be a loose course with lots of sweeping turns and you'd probably want more understeer so you can give it more throttle coming out of turns. The course could be an even combination of the two and you'd like the car to handle neutrally.

Mykl

Read this thread, it has a few comments on that.

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...ighlight=drift

FEDREX

And that's precisely why I like the delrin rear toe-eliminator bushings. I can simply drive my car faster thru corners because they enable me to have a predictable slip angle.

Mykl

If that's what you prefer then I say go with it.

MaxRX7

you want to be scared shitless ?

after the streets are wet from the rain, take off in 1st gear giving light throttle throughout a turn(right turn) and nail the accelerator and have some fun fishtailing

Mykl

Rain is so much fun! I can do AWD burnouts without too much stress on the drivetrain in the WRX.

Hopefully some day I'll have enough power through a beefier gearbox to do that on dry pavement.

Actually, oddly enough I tried this on the way back from Birmingham when I caught a light with a S5 n/a FC coupe. He did a bit of a brake torque and smoked the rear tires pretty good. I thought I'd show off a bit too, reved her up real high, spun the tires, and took off. Guy told me he was getting ready to drop a 13BT in it.

MaxRX7

FEDREX

Mykl:

I'm just curious - have you owned an FC with the toe-eliminator bushings?

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Understear pretty much means you're not going as fast. The ideal is to have neither, but many prefer a touch of overstear. Regardless of how good a driver you are, are you going to nail that long sweeping corner perfectly every single time? At some time you'll need to make corrections. Overstear means you can make corrections more easily. Understear means you've got to slow down more.

I'm probably not explaining it to your satisfaction, but I know what works when I'm driving. When you've got understear in a corner you're not happy. (that's not style)

That said, under different setups, a car and have more or less of either quality depending on the corner. The objective is to setup the car to eliminate understear without making the car have uncontrollable overstear. No one specifically aims for understear, they aim for less overstear. Sometimes understear in some corners can be the result of an optomized setup. Usually in it will be tweeked a bit which may reduce overall speed, but will increase drivability. However fast setups often lean towards too much overstear. (ie. A qualifying setup)

Another point: Ever seen Juan Montoya drive a car with with gobs of overstear? He's still fast, but it's the fact that he can react so fast which keeps it going. Most world class drivers are not able to control a car with the amount of overstear I've seen Montoya be successfull with. He's also able to drive it fast in a wild manner that would normally cost you time. For some reason his tires don't seem to run out early...

Scott 89t2

the other thing to add to this is when the car was brand new the DTSS system might have been great. but now 10+ years and thosands of miles later chances are those bushings are complety shot, giving very unpredictable changes in ways it is not surposed or designed to do... I think some cars you can now lift the rear end up and move the rear tire changing the toe by hand. so much for your .5gs it was designed to move for...

ps I have the bushings on order right now

Merovign

I think the wear issue is a good point - when it's "scary" it's probably worn out. After experiencing both new and old DTSS and eliminators, when my 7 goes back together, it will have new but stock DTSS bushings (and poly elsewhere).

A lot of it is personal preference - but IMHO the transition is predictable and fast with the DTSS - the worn DTSS is sloppy and the delrin just seems to be missing something in the transitions (and I don't think my exit speed was any higher).

Most of all, I like the DTSS, at least on the 7.

I think someone asked earlier - I usually run 42 front 32 rear pressures. Wider than stock tires, no power steering.

Scott 89t2

$$$$$, you can't buy the stock bushings by themselfs. you have to buy the whole rear hub asembly or the part that holds the bushings, then it will come with new ones.

RETed

I hope you don't end up designed cars for a living - you scare me.&nbsp If you understeer into a turn, you're actually going TOO fast.&nbsp Vehicle passenger cars are designed to understeer from the beginning.&nbsp Understeer is a stable system; oversteer is not.

Wrong.&nbsp Unless you're a crazy WRC rally driver, NO one prefers an oversteering vehicle...

Again, wrong.&nbsp An oversteering platform might be of use in two instances - autocross and rally racing.&nbsp A vehcile that tends to oversteer is an unstable system - you're going to have your hands full trying to control it in a turn.&nbsp The understeering chassis, by nature, is a stable platform - there is less chance of you losing control with an understeering chassis.&nbsp In fact, most race cars tend to slight understeer...

You ever talk to Montoya yourself?&nbsp I bet he would rather have an understeering race car.&nbsp The reason you see him sliding all over the place is because he has a heavy right foot and tends to get back on the gas pedal a tad earlier than most drivers.&nbsp You cannot make such a blanket statement, cause these F1 cars are dialed in differently for different tracks.&nbsp Some of the shorter, tighter tracks might actually have a bit of oversteer dialed into them (this is all moot since this year F1 is allowing two-way telemetry) to get the car to rotate quicker.

The majority of driver out there would rather have a slightly understeering car.&nbsp You claim otherwise - where you getting your info from?&nbsp That's just plain wrong.&nbsp I suggest reading the Skip Barber driving school book Going Faster! - this is a comprehensive book designed to explain driving theory to most people.&nbsp It is written very simply and clearly for most people to understand.



-Ted

tmak26b

Now try a 1st gen if you want oversteer

flubyux2

i think people automatically want to junk their DTSS since they arent the original owners, and think that these worn, mushy stock rubbers are SUPPOSE to be squirrley.

ive had my 88 se for about 2 years, ive noticed that when pushing fast sweeping exit ramp cloverleaf's, it understeers, and doesnt hint at a transition into oversteer. however, i can drift when ever i want to.

my only problem is, when ever i hit a bump, the rear end is twitchy. the suspension compresses, and it feels like it squats down and to the right (passengerside) and jerks back into line. this makes it scarey to drive a night in the rain or snow. i actually have to drive 10 mph slower than everyone if its bad weather. and its white knuckle for me the whole way. im just scared that its gonna jerk too hard and cause me to spin out on the snow or ice.

anyhow, the Delrin or eliminator bushings take out the unpredicatbility of the DTSS. your suspension will be solidyly mounted, and youll know the breaking point cuz youll feel it start to drift out.

for me, when i feel the rear end start to drift, my insticnt is countersteer, but then the DTSS starts to take over and just screws up my whole groove.

the fact of the matter is, we need more seat time pushing our car to the limits so we can easily predict how the car will react under any condition. eliminating the DTSS isnt the right way, its just the easy way out. everyone is afraid of alittle hard work....

chris

Maxthe7man

A few have made the statement that these cars are 10 year old plus, and worn components is the cause of the loose rear end, this is entirely true.. Also from my own findings the alignment of the car has to be spot on to make the DTSS work properly and not have that dog tracking feeling when coming out of corner or crossing camber roads. Get all the worn parts replaced, the rear struts makes the biggest difference, and a proper alignment, the car will feel like gold afterwards, the Dtss elimantor bushings do work well, but they are often used as a band aid for other worn parts. One more thing is the rim offset, alot of aftermarket rims do not have the correct offset for the FC, and loads the outboard side of the hub and provides more leverage on the suspension components than what the suspension was designed for, this creates handling quirks that nothing will really fix. Max

Terrh

iTrader: (7)

a moderate amount of oversteer is a blast

but too much (like in a mid engined car) and the back end of the car wants to go first.
I'd rather have oversteer than understeer - if your car understeers and you get into a corner too fast, you're screwed.
if it oversteers, you've got a much better chance of getting through the corner alive (if you know how to drive it)

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

"The Best Handling RX-7s have less understear, and they will overstear... The biggest problem with understeer is that, when entering a turn carrying too much speed, there is little chance to stay on the desired line. The front tires will screech and lose traction, and the car will tend to go straight. This could put you into the weeds (or worse), because when you lock up the front tires, you won't be able to steer the car.
If, on the other hand, you lose traction withg the rear tires, steering is still posisble. That's why with a little overstear a good driver can go around turns carrying more speed, with more g-force, and under better control."

- Mike Ancas - Mazda RX-7 Performance Handbook

If you'd like I'll find some more. I may not be the most knowledgable person here, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

RETed

I feel sorry for you...

You shouldn't be blasting into a turn in the first place.&nbsp There are other ways of going through a turn if you're going in too fast - one of which is to late apex the turn.&nbsp Trying to dial in oversteer is a really stupid way to compensate for your lack of driving skill...



-Ted

RETed

I knew there was a reason why I didn't like that book...

http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/steering.html
Read the last sentence.

Now you're going to make me get my reference material...

"For racing on hard surfaces, it is best for a car to slightly understeer, which is indispensible for stability on straights and, above all, in fast bends, but to respond by slightly oversteering or reducing the understeer whenever the driver releases the accelerator.&nbsp This helps turn-in when negotiating a bend.&nbsp It should also have enough power to break the grip of the driving wheels to produce controlled "power oversteer" at the exit of the bend."
Sports Car and Competition Driving by Paul Frere, p. 60

I'd take Paul Frere over Mike Ancas anyday.&nbsp A side note, Paul Frere actually helped with R&D and testing of the FC3S in Europe at the request of Mazda Corp.



-Ted