SPDST3R

Supposed that pre-silencer is also installed.

Here are the criterias:

1. Which one gives more HP gain
2. Which one is more quiet

zelgadiss-san

header is the loudest, but I believe it has the highest HP gain.

DCmina

ya, and a header makes the car sounds shitty. If noise isn't an issue get the header.

SPDST3R

TTT

Fatty_FC3S

This question is a moot point. If you have an NA, you get headers, if you have a turbo car, you get downpipes. Its that simple. A downpipe is the turbo equivalent of a header.

Ryde _Or_Die

Not really. A DP is just associated with turbo cars. Some places refer to the pipe coming down from the exhaust manifold on NAs as a downpipe. Hell racing beat does themselves, check it out on their site.

Well to get absolutely the most power out of an NA get a header. To get a good gain and a great sound get the DP. Theres not more much HP difference in the 2, depending on the rest of your setup.

Rotorific

iTrader: (1)

My friend Roy james has a rb header and that thing sounds like a damn killer bee buzzing everywhere it goes and it is all because of the header...i on the other hand have a downpipe with no silencers what so ever and it is suprisingly quiet oh yeah SINGLE CANISTER setup for us both

Dak

I don't know why people are saying a header makes the car sound like crap.Alot of it will have to do with the mufflers that you use.When I had my setup using the stock mufflers it didn't sound that good.My wife says it sounded like a moped.I thought it sounded more like a YZ80 dirtbike.With the HKS mufflers it sounds really good.The RB muffler sounds good as well.So headers with the wrong mufflers sound bad.With the right mufflers they sound good IMO.Oh they are loud but not too bad with the pre-silencer.I say go with headers.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Here's my experience -

If you are going for general bolt-ons (exhaust, intake, maybe a Super-AFC or MSD), get the downpipe/presilencer. I've installed MANY Bonez downpipe/presilencers, and they work and sound GREAT. You really don't gain a lot going with headers - we've done back-to-back testing, and the difference really isn't that big, if at all. For the extra expense and installation hassle, it's not worth it.

Now, if you've got a ported engine and are going for a radical setup, go with headers or a full dual system.

For 90% of the NA guys here, the downpipe/presilencer will do you right. I've heard the setup with many cat-backs - Dynomax, HKS 50mm, Apexi N1, Apexi GT series...there's one word to describe the tone, DEEEEEEP. There NO raspiness that you get with headers - just a really deep growl.

Don't waste your money on headers - just get a downpipe/presilencer. Hell, the one from RP is only like $120-150 or so! You are NOT going to get your money's worth of power by getting headers over a downpipe/presilencer, UNLESS you're going with a much more radical setup than most people here will ever do. Be realistic - if you're a college student with a small budget, go with the bang for the buck - don't wait for the pie in the sky that you never seem to save up for, only to be as fast as your buddy with the cheap set up.

Anyhow, sorry for the long post - this is one of THOSE subjects for me . Trust me on this one.

Dale

Ichiban

when people say trust me is makes me weary but i dont know jack all about s4/5 na motors so u know better than me

von

With some manifold porting and full intake exaust with no cats , underpulleys S-AFC exc I think headers should give 5fhp over a streight bonez pipe through the back. I have the streight bonez pipe and yes it sounds killer but i wouldnt mind if it was just a little louder. I also NEED that 5 extra flywheel horsepower hehe. If someone can just agree with me on the hp because I dont know for sure but a stock car then YES streight pipe is better. Anyone want to sell me their headers?

Also , If anywone knows about that bonez pipe then you will see that the stock manifold is 2.1/4 inches wile the bonez is 2.1/2 inches. If you wanted more top end cant you just dremel the manifold to match? I know this block creates torque or something not letting air back into the engine but I like top end. ANYONE???

wozzoom

Like its been said in the previous posts, Headers don't become a necessity until you've ported the engine. If you have a stock block, stick with the Bonez pipe.

Another point about headers is that it moves the power band up. Header power is in the 5000 RPM and up range. Down low below 3000 RPM you will loose torque.

von

I dont think you understand. 5hp with headers with OUT a ported engine. Im talking about manifold porting and other bolt ons. Headers are very noticible with those mods I do believe.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

On a stock ported engine, I've seen only a minor difference with headers as opposed to a downpipe. Not to mention EVERY car I've heard with headers has the weed whacker sound going - even cars with umpty-jillion pre-silencers and the like.

If you feel your car is a little on the quiet side, try an Apexi N1 with the RP downpipe/presilencer - there's quite a few cars like that running around Pensacola. It's loud enough to sound good, but BOY does it sound incredible - deep, chest-pounding sound. Put in a silencer and you're ready for a car trip or date with a nice quiet ride.

Dale

SureShot

What all this is about is trying to get a rotary to sound like a piston engine. The exhaust port shock waves from a piston engine make a lower frequency poof sound compared to the pop of a rotary. The Wankel has no valve head, valve stem, right angle bends, or water jacket to soften explosion. That's part of where its power comes from. So – it sounds different. I happen to like it.
-Bill

von

Im all about top end. If I can feel a diff up top with headers than im all for it. When your racing some punks at the illegals than 3-5hp up top makes a big difference not to mention I never see under 5.5k rpms.

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

It's not about trying to get a rotary to sound like a piston engine, it's about getting a rotary to sound GOOD. If I want a weedwhacker sound, I'll get a Honda with a fart cannon. It comes down to personal preference, of course, but I think a lot of the folks with headers *learn* to like the sound, while people hearing the car take off from a stoplight look like they just ate a sour grape.

3-5 hp top end? Hell, I can take a crap and make 5 hp. I'd sacrifice 5hp for ease of installation and good tone. But, again, there are people that are looking to squeeze every last ounce of power out of an NA - if so, you need a header, along with nitrous, street port, light flywheel, etc. etc. etc. Which 90% of the people reading this won't have the technical ability to use or the money to buy it.

My recommendation is for the everyman, not the special circumstances.

Dale

SureShot

I know, I know - you can't argue taste. Just be aware that the sound you may describe as good is defined by the piston engines around us.
-Bill

SureShot

Maybe I'm too liberal, but a fuel cell/electric hybrid would sound awesome to me - if it could turn a 13 second quarter..
-Bill

Samps

nobody has mentioned the incredible weight of the stock manifold! I have headers. With as many ideas that come up about gaining 1-2 horsepower; a lot of people sure do seem to brush off a possible 5 horsepower gain. Let's face it; you need every available drop of power you can get out of out little motors. Trying to keep your car quite is a logical concern, but trying to keep it quiet and make power is just not gonna happen without nitrous or FI. I will always vote for headers; why? because they produce more power, even if it's one horsepower, it's more power none the less. In case you had not noticed, the exhaust is just about the only major power adder we have on our NAs, we can't turn up boost or change a pulley, new cams and pistons are not an option, and our gear ratios are also very limited. So I say take advantage of the one thing that actually adds power to that motor.

But it's gonna be loud!

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Again, you have to weigh the advantages/disadvantages - spend $300 for a good header/presilencer, or $150 for a downpipe/presilencer - you're looking at a sizeable difference to the average NA owner.

You really have to take things in perspective - there's a LOT of people who think you should gut EVERYTHING from the car that doesn't hold it together, put suspension that bangs your teeth out on, run straight pipe, and squeeze every last drop of potential from the car. Yes, that's neat, but a car like that ain't fun to drive any more.

The Grand National guys have a saying that holds true to me - Fast with Class. I like having a nice interior, cold AC, you name it. Not to mention an exhaust that is well built and looks and sounds great.

NA's are great cars - my daily driver is an '86 base that's been upgraded to Sport specs (5-lug, better seats, etc) with a fresh motor, cone intake, RP downpipe/presilencer, Tokico non-adjustables and Eibach springs. It's a blast to drive. But an NA isn't the right car if you're looking to make a LOT of power - that's why god created the TurboII.

Anyhow, I'm stopping now - I don't want to get into an NA and TII pissing contest, and the header issue is becoming more of a dick-swinging contest than anything based in reality.

Dale

bcty

basically its this.. you want all the hp and you have a little bit more money.. get the header.. if u want to save and go a cheeper route and get close to the same power gains get the Race Pipe.... right now i have the Bonez Race Pipe and i have headers on order that will go with my race pipe.. im not expecting too much of a diffrence except noise.. i need to save a bit and get a 1st gen now... start over

von

Samps is right. If your like me and want to squeeze every hp out of the motor for the sport of squeezing every hp its got than get a header. If I really wanted hp/doller everyone would get a turbo car. So far I spent more on my N/A than people spend on their turbo and it still makes less power. But its the sport of trying to pull hp out of an n/a. And its much funner having the fastes N/A than it is having an average turbo running high 13s-low 14s like everyone else... Still slowwww and borring.

KiyoKix

Does anyone have any videos or sound clips of the headers vs. the downpipe/silencer??? If so please post so we can finally end this discussion (heck if you have dyno sheets post those too!!!). Personally I think the N/A isn't all about power it's about the entire experience of tuning the car so I'll probably go with the downpipe/presilencer combo because of the sound and a little extra power (currently I'm running the bonez superflo system which sounds GREAT I might add . But please post some sound clips if possible...even if you don't have both!

jon88se

It's all about personal preference...you buy the parts and if you're unhappy with them after the install it's not worth it and you trade up to a different setup. I have always made my own systems for my cars (RX-7 and GVR4) and I went through a couple of combinations before I think I got it right with the rex. I used to have a 2.5 inch straight back to a single 3 inch X-tec canister...it made great power but was too loud, especially at idle. Last year I kept the 2.5 inch downpipe I made and jigged up a 2.25 inch Y pipe where the downpipe ends and sent that to two Apexi Dunk 2.5 inch mufflers. This sounded deeper and less honda B-series metallic...the powerband lowered a bit with this setup so I got the RB aluminum flywheel for MAD top end. I flanged the system for a test pipe that I can pop my high flow cat into for inspection time. I actually kept the cat in last week after inspection...power feels the same (2.5 inch Random Tech cat) but the Tone is sooooo much better. I have a good job now but back in college I couldn't afford to swap back and forth between setups so for the $$ the simple straight back was terrific from a function standpoint.