RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the bottom edge doesn't need to be a perfect match.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

Why not?

Rotary >Pistons

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

because the assist piece floats and even though it may match outside the engine it may not match inside the engine. the only bit that comes in contact with anything anyways is the tiny ends of the apex seal springs. you can see the wear patterns on the old seals.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

The RA classics ate the housings in less than 15K miles, no OMP and premixing 1oz per 1gal. The housings looked like a ringside for catfights, the grooves were so deep, that there was no need to use fingernails in order to feel them.

Unfortunately, the builder used the RA SS on the build. Personally, I would've gone with the ALS.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

With only getting mileage like that out of them it seems like the only logical place to use them is in a drag/race car that sees very little mileage, not a daily driven

Rotary >Pistons

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

if you want the best mileage and don't plan on going too crazy with mods then Atkins work well and last a good long time. OEMs will last slightly longer but if you lose a seal the damage will be much more extensive than if an Atkins seal fails.

Clubuser

from a sealing perspective, it then seems there is not much to be gained from the two piece over a single piece apex.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

Yea but wouldn't goopy be a better choice then both those ?

I'm so unsure what to go with. Like I said it probably will use a stock s5 turbo for a while.

I'm just afraid of the seals breaking if something ever does go wrong, I like the peace of mind of seals being unbreakable..just in case I do get some boost creep or anything to cause me to run lean/detonate/knock.

I do plan on porting the waste gate, though I wish I could leave it stock.

Car has a full exhaust, fcd, stock ecu, and I can run all 550's or 550 primary with 680cc gsl-se secondaries (work as 720cc on fcs), the fuel pump is probably stock but I'll have to check.

On my setup I have now I'd want to run 9psi Max or less , how much porting of the waste gate will I need to do?

Later after I upgrade to the rtek 1.7 ecu and get a fuel pump I'd like to run 12 psi.

Rotary >Pistons

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

2 piece will always seal better than a 1 piece, unless the bottom edges are far out of proportion then the decks do not have to match.

a properly fitted single piece seal will seal as well as a 2 piece seal once the engine is warm but when cold it will have more blowby(more difficulty starting). single piece seals have the drawback of galling the edge of the rotor housing.

some companies like Hurley use an extended assist boot, so the apex boot isn't a tiny awl on the housing surface. but Hurley seals aren't well known any longer and rather difficult to get a hold of. Atkins also uses a semi extended boot length to help prevent galling. all the other common "indestructable" seals have the short boot.

when seals are concerned there is never an easy answer, but i haven't noticed any galling with the Goopy seals yet. doesn't mean that there isn't a possibility though(as there is with any of the softer seals), but if you want durability then the RA/Goopy/ALS all will work. if you want longevity at the risk of damaging the engine more extensively if there is a hiccup in tuning then OEM/Atkins are best.

for what it's worth, most of the chewed up housings from softer seals still looked very salvageable to me with a simple resurface. but you only really get one resurface for a rotor housing, just like a well worn brake rotor. resurfacing generally takes off about half the chrome layer from it's original thickness.

KNONFS

iTrader: (14)

If you plan on abusing the car/engine, I would go for the "unbreakeable" type of seals. To be honest, IMO, Goopy and ALS are too new to cast a judge if they are better or not than the RA SS.

If I had the option, I would've gone with the ALS, since I dont think they could be any worse than the RA SS.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

maybe too new to this club but they developed their seals at least 5 years ago and have pushed them to over 1200whp on a rather basic 2 rotor engine.

would i recommend them to those expecting another 100k+ from a daily driven stock-ish or non turbo car? probably not. would i recommend them to someone expecting 50-75k from a partly daily driven car with over 400 horsepower? i have and done and so far have had no problems in several years. i did tear one engine down after about 2k miles and there was 0 galling, this engine also had resurfaced rotor housings which are more abusive and may tend to gall the easiest upon first crank(but keep reading).

but who really knows, resurfacing is probably the newest form of engine reconditioning and perhaps the key to prevent galling on these soft seal engines. like slapping new pads on a worn brake rotor, the seals will overheat initially before they bed into the surface because contact area is limited. even housings i once considered good candidates i notice are well worn once you start cutting them and notice the "M" shaped wear pattern. brand new seals have this to work against as soon as you run the engine for the very first time(seal to housing contact as minimal as 30%). resurfaced housings will still cause more friction but the friction is less localized as well as the heat(apex seal heat generation is at maximum on a first fired engine, it will slowly dissipate over the first hour of engine run time in my experiences).

new housings would be ideal in a perfect world, but not many FC owners are going to drop $1200 on new housings for a car with a resale value between $2k and $5k.

one particular owner cracked his block on the Goopy seals, he pulled the engine apart, lapped the seal tips, threw them into another engine and re-dynoed the car at over 800whp. the seals survived a fractured iron and went back to work in a different environment(and i'm not simply referring to a minor cracked dowel pin landing).

philiptompkins

iTrader: (4)

I seriously abused a set of ra classic seals. .. detonated on the dyno at 21 psi with a large turbo and terrible tune.
Never broke a seal, the engine just became hard to start when warm.
Apparently the extreme heat/force warped the seals and this warping was more pronounced the warmer the motor.
I even compression tested the motor cold vs how and got wayyy better compression when cold.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

there is also another review of the Goopy seals here:

https://www.rx7club.com/single-turbo...tures-1022708/

however i see numerous problems with the scenarios he gave: yet the seals still did not gouge the housings, did not receive a proper break in, were subject to excessive coolant temps, subject to higher than desired AFRs and still seemed to be working just fine(albeit they were not worn into the housings properly yet, i suspect on resurfaced housings they would have been bedded in by then). i would not blame the engine running hot due to the seals but a problem that they had to deal with and probably why they received and gave those particular markings.

IMO that thread is actually a testament to the seals versus a negative review that his attempt was to make.

as mentioned i will have a more definitive review in a few weeks of an FC S5 turbo engine running even more horsepower after a proper break in with many more miles than that review had. it also had none of those negatives, the main difference is that this engine was running 20psi and has AI water/methanol injection behind 91 octane pump gas. AFR's at a proper 10.8:1, coolant temps never over 95C in summer and close to 2k miles of break in period, the housings also were NOT resurfaced on this particular engine so it is a good comparison, the rotor housings however were used but in great shape(less than 30k miles from a donor REW engine). the seals are also subject to slightly more abuse from the full bridged engine.

this review is on an engine which lost a coolant seal, likely due to a bridge failure but otherwise runs fine and he still drives(which i told him to, does not run hot just difficult starting).

bmwrx7man

iTrader: (2)

im with the builders on this thread . but honestly if your going for perfomance and wont be driving that car as much just go with ra . i had em my buddy on here with 10 sec fd (smg944) i work with him as been threw mazda seals als atkins goopy ..and so far out of all the seals ra holds up the most . 2mm superseals . classics i wanna try to be softer on the housings . my car has taken such a bad abuse of leaning out / overheating the whole 9 yards with superseals . took it apart about 4 weeks ago cause a sideseal went . superseals warped a tiny bit and one of my housings were in really good condition . we have a motor built by peter f racing we just recently took apart with atkins seals...garbage ill never use them the housings had more wear then mine did with ra superseals and it was a s6 motor . i recently starting putting motors together and we ONLY use ra seal for the fact of just having less headaches . unless customer wants to use OEM or goopy/als . oem seals are just a ticking time bomb . one mistake or anything kiss your housings goodbye . oem/ atkins ill never use personally unless your trying to be completly stock . ra and goopy are the way togo .

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

You think I should go with ra classics or superseals?

If I got the super seals its just for peace of mind.

My car probably won't see over 250whp since I'd be using the stock turbo.

If I use these, should I be getting my housingd resurfaced?

I'm still kind of skeptical about doing my first build on my own.

Rotary >Pistons

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

even though some people claim Atkins wear housings i have never seen it personally outside of one engine that broke several apex seal springs, warped the seals and clawed the housings minorly. that particular engine had resurfaced housings, which may have led to the wear, seals/springs overheating and ultimate failure so i would use Atkins on decent used, un-resurfaced original housings. i have however used them in numerous engines with resurfaced housings and not noticed the same problems that one engine had(springs may have been faulty or the tune a little too aggressive). i recut the housings and tossed in Goopy seals and the car has ran flawlessly since, it was also the reason why i won't use anything less on 300whp or above engines now.. warranty claims hurt.

Atkins are probably my choice on engines in the sub 300whp category. best wear characteristics compared to OEM at half the cost and less destructive in the event of detonation.

the chrome treatment process on the different housings may also be a contributor, but which causes what in each combination is anyone's guess. no one is going to be willing to build the dozens of engines for simple testing purposes and even then it may not be evident.

for what it's worth, REW housings tend to see striations the most(gouging/clawing/etc). they also have the most extensive chrome treatment process/hardest most wear resistant layer. soft seals still work with them but any little issue with break in: dirt, tuning, excessive heat, etc will begin to cause it.

bmwrx7man

iTrader: (2)

classics . your still good to get alot more than 250whp with them . less wear on the housings .

im getting my housings resurfaced in a few weeks to start my new build and im gonna resuse my old 2mm superseals . going for 500whp line.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

Should I be getting my housings resurfaced?

Id like to use them without having to, I'll see how they look when I take my two blocks apart.

Way down the road I'd like to hit 300-350+ whp using a hybrid turbo.

What port are you using on your next build?

Rotary >Pistons

bmwrx7man

iTrader: (2)

really large street port. i like my stock port tho . for driving around the city normal . still had my low end tq . if the housings arent scratched or look really chrome u should be fine

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i agree with that actually, i think maybe the goopy seals warp/melt/bend at a lower EGT than he was expecting.

me neither, atkins do not seem to be quite as strong, on a high hp turbo car the seal seems to break before the thing starts to detonate, but we know this, and its ok.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i saw your diagram in the other thread as i didn't understand your initial description.

yes that bit of material should have been removed during the seal manufacturing. i haven't noticed it on any other seals so it was probably overlooked.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

by the way, for those interested in housing resurfacing i have concluded that Atkins seals do NOT like resurfaced housings for break in. another engine with striations on the housings and seals.

granted i was in a little of a rush and did not cross hash the housings, which i generally do with the harder seal installs.

TougeMonster

iTrader: (1)

If you go with RA seals I'd recommend using oem mazda springs.
The RA springs were all different, none of them measured even close, long springs anyways
My old springs from the 3 piece seals were in way better tolerance, and they were already heat cycled so I dont have to worry about em one bit

DaBrkddy

I want to machine and heat treat and anneal some of my own apex seals out of H13 tool steel. If I do I will create a detailed build thread and update it every 10,000mi.

In my cars I only use genuine Mazda seals. They are very expensive though.

* A long time ago, a friend and I opened a S4 N/A engine that had a blown coolant seal. It had 2mm 2 piece seals in it. It had a "warranty void if removed" sticker over the eccentric shaft bolt that holds the front pully boss on. I have no idea who built it. It had an aluminum oil thermostat replacement plug (The plug was solid machined aluminum). The rotor housings had HORRIBLE chatter marks (When you run your finger nail over them, the ripples were huge.) I believe this was caused by the poorly engineered aftermarket seals.

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

Why H13? Mazda seals are hardened only at the top edge and are almost glass hard. H13 won't come close. I'm assuming you have some material knowledge here and know why these guys complain of soft seal scaring and why Mazda seals are so hard at the sliding surface.