quick oil Q
05-15-05, 11:24 AM
#2
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I have always used Castrol 10W 30 since 1990. Have never had an oil related problem. Then I change mine every 1,500 miles. Castrol seems to be the concensus oil for the second gen.
05-15-05, 11:46 AM
#3
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Any brand of oil is ok, even the cheap stuff if you change your oil every 2000-3000 miles. I've used nothing but 10W40 since 1986 in all 4 of my RX7s with never a problem. I typically get the brand that is on sale, either Mobil, Pennzoil, or Castrol.
05-15-05, 01:50 PM
#5
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally Posted by Sindregutt
hmm. stupid Q but, the oil is not syntethic?
The much recommended Castrol GTX in either 10W30 or 20W50 is a conventional petrolium based oil and will generally be stable for 5000-6000 miles before any viscosity break down.
True synthetics (although not recommended by Mazda due mostly to lack of testing and the quality variations from brand to brand) will often go 10000 or even 20000 miles without the viscosity breaking down, however the particulate build up will still happen and require regular oil changes at or before normal factory guidelines. If using synthetics, only better quality synthetics (Redline, Mobil1, Royal Purple, Amsoil, Neo) should be used on Mazda rotary engines, due to the ash and polymers that may lead to build up when cheaper and less perfected synthetics are used.
Last edited by Icemark; 05-15-05 at 01:56 PM.
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05-15-05, 05:55 PM
#11
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally Posted by Sindregutt
What about castrol GTX 10w 40?
In addition many new car manufactures will try and void the engine warranty if 10W40 or 10W50 oils are used. Toyota (for example) has also had some big valve train gunk up problems on 3.0 V6 engines using 10W40 or 10W50 oils.
05-15-05, 06:59 PM
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Icemark, I wish you would stop comparing apples and oranges.
Comparing a Toyota engine warranty issue for a piston engine with a Mazda non-piston engine is irrelevant.
The Famous 3.0 V6 sludge monsters were sludging, NOT DUE TO ANY PARTICULAR oil viscosity, but instead on very high head temperatures that did not come into play with factory recommended oil change intervals. The sludging occured on 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils and 10W40 oils had nothing to do with it since these engines did not call for any other weight oil. The Sienna minivan was the worst with regard to sludgeing because it ran hotter because of its configuration. Toyota has replaced many engines due to the sludging. Similarly, VW screwed up with their 1.8T engines and called for oil change intervals that were too long and didn't require the use of synthetic oils. Consquently, many VW 1.8T engines failed.
Icemark, I'd like to specifically see where Toyota says that the warranty will be voided if a thicker viscosity oil is used.
News Release:
Toyota Motor Sales, (TMS) U.S.A., Inc., announced in April 2002 a new customer satisfaction program for owners of 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines.
Toyota wrote that it "is taking this action because a very small number of customers have reported engine damage from motor oil breakdown, also known as oil gelling or 'sludging,' a result of oil change intervals delayed beyond the factory-recommended schedule. While any make vehicle can suffer from this condition if the oil is not changed often enough, Toyota has initiated this program to ensure owner peace of mind." We note that this is a handy way to blame the owners for what is clearly a design flaw - since it doesn't affect earlier vehicles or other engines, and is in fact quite rare on other automakers' engines. We have also heard that this happens even if you follow Toyota's recommendations on oil changes.
Toyota continues: "To make sure that customers have absolute confidence in their vehicles, this program will cover repair costs and incidental expenses for which a customer has paid or could incur as a result of damage due to oil gelling for a period of eight years from the date of first sale or lease without a mileage limitation. In addition to the costs of repairs, reasonable incidental expenses, such as car rental, and other out-of-pocket expenses will be covered.
"This program replaces a previous special policy adjustment regarding oil gel damage, and extends protection against this condition well beyond the new vehicle powertrain warranty period."
Customers whose engines have needed repair in the past should contact Toyota at 888-802-9436 or Lexus at 888-654-6421 for details on obtaining reimbursement. If it happens to you in the future, see your dealer for repairs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to alldata NO MAZDA TSB exists that states not to use 10W40 in my 91 S5.
http://www.alldata.com/TSB/33/91330673.html If one exists, please show me.
The FSM and owners manual clearly states that 10W40 is good for year long use. As I stated earlier, emissions forced builders to move the piston ring lands higher up on the piston and this is what caused oil deposit buildups with certain oils. The main reason that car manufacturers are requiring lighter oils such as 5W-20 thru 10w-30 is mainly to meet CAFE standards imposed by the US Gov't. Many of these foreign manufacturers are running much higher weight oils in their cars sold outside of the USA. Shoot, I think Ferrari is requiring a very expensive 10W60 oil in some of their models but I won't go as far to compare a piston to a rotary engine....
Comparing a Toyota engine warranty issue for a piston engine with a Mazda non-piston engine is irrelevant.
The Famous 3.0 V6 sludge monsters were sludging, NOT DUE TO ANY PARTICULAR oil viscosity, but instead on very high head temperatures that did not come into play with factory recommended oil change intervals. The sludging occured on 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils and 10W40 oils had nothing to do with it since these engines did not call for any other weight oil. The Sienna minivan was the worst with regard to sludgeing because it ran hotter because of its configuration. Toyota has replaced many engines due to the sludging. Similarly, VW screwed up with their 1.8T engines and called for oil change intervals that were too long and didn't require the use of synthetic oils. Consquently, many VW 1.8T engines failed.
Icemark, I'd like to specifically see where Toyota says that the warranty will be voided if a thicker viscosity oil is used.
News Release:
Toyota Motor Sales, (TMS) U.S.A., Inc., announced in April 2002 a new customer satisfaction program for owners of 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines.
Toyota wrote that it "is taking this action because a very small number of customers have reported engine damage from motor oil breakdown, also known as oil gelling or 'sludging,' a result of oil change intervals delayed beyond the factory-recommended schedule. While any make vehicle can suffer from this condition if the oil is not changed often enough, Toyota has initiated this program to ensure owner peace of mind." We note that this is a handy way to blame the owners for what is clearly a design flaw - since it doesn't affect earlier vehicles or other engines, and is in fact quite rare on other automakers' engines. We have also heard that this happens even if you follow Toyota's recommendations on oil changes.
Toyota continues: "To make sure that customers have absolute confidence in their vehicles, this program will cover repair costs and incidental expenses for which a customer has paid or could incur as a result of damage due to oil gelling for a period of eight years from the date of first sale or lease without a mileage limitation. In addition to the costs of repairs, reasonable incidental expenses, such as car rental, and other out-of-pocket expenses will be covered.
"This program replaces a previous special policy adjustment regarding oil gel damage, and extends protection against this condition well beyond the new vehicle powertrain warranty period."
Customers whose engines have needed repair in the past should contact Toyota at 888-802-9436 or Lexus at 888-654-6421 for details on obtaining reimbursement. If it happens to you in the future, see your dealer for repairs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to alldata NO MAZDA TSB exists that states not to use 10W40 in my 91 S5.
http://www.alldata.com/TSB/33/91330673.html If one exists, please show me.
The FSM and owners manual clearly states that 10W40 is good for year long use. As I stated earlier, emissions forced builders to move the piston ring lands higher up on the piston and this is what caused oil deposit buildups with certain oils. The main reason that car manufacturers are requiring lighter oils such as 5W-20 thru 10w-30 is mainly to meet CAFE standards imposed by the US Gov't. Many of these foreign manufacturers are running much higher weight oils in their cars sold outside of the USA. Shoot, I think Ferrari is requiring a very expensive 10W60 oil in some of their models but I won't go as far to compare a piston to a rotary engine....
05-15-05, 08:06 PM
#13
Opinions are like........
Originally Posted by speed_monkey
Hey im about to go pickup a couple of quarts of oil, im a little low. What should I get?
I only hope that you're a little low and not a couple quarts low.
Use whatever brand/weight/type of oil you want.
Frequent oil changes are more important.
Try to match the weight with the weather.
And, use the best oil you can afford!
05-15-05, 08:42 PM
#15
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally Posted by homebrewer
Icemark, I wish you would stop comparing apples and oranges.
Comparing a Toyota engine warranty issue for a piston engine with a Mazda non-piston engine is irrelevant.
The Famous 3.0 V6 sludge monsters were sludging, NOT DUE TO ANY PARTICULAR oil viscosity, but instead on very high head temperatures that did not come into play with factory recommended oil change intervals. The sludging occured on 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils and 10W40 oils had nothing to do with it since these engines did not call for any other weight oil. The Sienna minivan was the worst with regard to sludgeing because it ran hotter because of its configuration. Toyota has replaced many engines due to the sludging. Similarly, VW screwed up with their 1.8T engines and called for oil change intervals that were too long and didn't require the use of synthetic oils. Consquently, many VW 1.8T engines failed.
Icemark, I'd like to specifically see where Toyota says that the warranty will be voided if a thicker viscosity oil is used.
News Release:
Toyota Motor Sales, (TMS) U.S.A., Inc., announced in April 2002 a new customer satisfaction program for owners of 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines.
Toyota wrote that it "is taking this action because a very small number of customers have reported engine damage from motor oil breakdown, also known as oil gelling or 'sludging,' a result of oil change intervals delayed beyond the factory-recommended schedule. While any make vehicle can suffer from this condition if the oil is not changed often enough, Toyota has initiated this program to ensure owner peace of mind." We note that this is a handy way to blame the owners for what is clearly a design flaw - since it doesn't affect earlier vehicles or other engines, and is in fact quite rare on other automakers' engines. We have also heard that this happens even if you follow Toyota's recommendations on oil changes.
Toyota continues: "To make sure that customers have absolute confidence in their vehicles, this program will cover repair costs and incidental expenses for which a customer has paid or could incur as a result of damage due to oil gelling for a period of eight years from the date of first sale or lease without a mileage limitation. In addition to the costs of repairs, reasonable incidental expenses, such as car rental, and other out-of-pocket expenses will be covered.
"This program replaces a previous special policy adjustment regarding oil gel damage, and extends protection against this condition well beyond the new vehicle powertrain warranty period."
Customers whose engines have needed repair in the past should contact Toyota at 888-802-9436 or Lexus at 888-654-6421 for details on obtaining reimbursement. If it happens to you in the future, see your dealer for repairs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to alldata NO MAZDA TSB exists that states not to use 10W40 in my 91 S5.
http://www.alldata.com/TSB/33/91330673.html If one exists, please show me.
Comparing a Toyota engine warranty issue for a piston engine with a Mazda non-piston engine is irrelevant.
The Famous 3.0 V6 sludge monsters were sludging, NOT DUE TO ANY PARTICULAR oil viscosity, but instead on very high head temperatures that did not come into play with factory recommended oil change intervals. The sludging occured on 5W-30 and 10W-30 oils and 10W40 oils had nothing to do with it since these engines did not call for any other weight oil. The Sienna minivan was the worst with regard to sludgeing because it ran hotter because of its configuration. Toyota has replaced many engines due to the sludging. Similarly, VW screwed up with their 1.8T engines and called for oil change intervals that were too long and didn't require the use of synthetic oils. Consquently, many VW 1.8T engines failed.
Icemark, I'd like to specifically see where Toyota says that the warranty will be voided if a thicker viscosity oil is used.
I'll scan it tonight and post it for you- would you like GMs version as well???
Toyota Motor Sales, (TMS) U.S.A., Inc., announced in April 2002 a new customer satisfaction program for owners of 1997 through 2002 Toyota and Lexus vehicles equipped with 3.0 liter V6 or 2.2 liter 4-cylinder engines.
Toyota wrote that it "is taking this action because a very small number of customers have reported engine damage from motor oil breakdown, also known as oil gelling or 'sludging,' a result of oil change intervals delayed beyond the factory-recommended schedule. While any make vehicle can suffer from this condition if the oil is not changed often enough, Toyota has initiated this program to ensure owner peace of mind." We note that this is a handy way to blame the owners for what is clearly a design flaw - since it doesn't affect earlier vehicles or other engines, and is in fact quite rare on other automakers' engines. We have also heard that this happens even if you follow Toyota's recommendations on oil changes.
Toyota continues: "To make sure that customers have absolute confidence in their vehicles, this program will cover repair costs and incidental expenses for which a customer has paid or could incur as a result of damage due to oil gelling for a period of eight years from the date of first sale or lease without a mileage limitation. In addition to the costs of repairs, reasonable incidental expenses, such as car rental, and other out-of-pocket expenses will be covered.
"This program replaces a previous special policy adjustment regarding oil gel damage, and extends protection against this condition well beyond the new vehicle powertrain warranty period."
Customers whose engines have needed repair in the past should contact Toyota at 888-802-9436 or Lexus at 888-654-6421 for details on obtaining reimbursement. If it happens to you in the future, see your dealer for repairs.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to alldata NO MAZDA TSB exists that states not to use 10W40 in my 91 S5.
http://www.alldata.com/TSB/33/91330673.html If one exists, please show me.
The FSM and owners manual clearly states that 10W40 is good for year long use.
As I stated earlier, emissions forced builders to move the piston ring lands higher up on the piston and this is what caused oil deposit buildups with certain oils. The main reason that car manufacturers are requiring lighter oils such as 5W-20 thru 10w-30 is mainly to meet CAFE standards imposed by the US Gov't.
But back to the reply:
You can keep using what you want, as I said in my post:
I do not recommend 5W30 or 10W40/10W50 conventional oils
But I have posted numbers countless times, showing the increased ash and other issues with 10W40 and 10W50 oils. If you chose to use them (10W40/50 oils), it is by your accord, and your choice in ignoring of that clear information.
What do you have to say about the increased ash and other issues with conventional 10W40 and 10W50 oils??? You keep saying they are safe... I have seen the insides of rotary and piston motors exclusivly driven on single brand 10W40 oils, and others on exclusivly on 20W50 oils, have you???
And when it comes to oil, any high reving motor can be comparied. What do you think that the rotary motor is the only high reving motor out there. That 2.2 Toyota motor has very simular power output, power curve, to a non turbo 13B. Sure it does not run half as hot as a rotary, but that is about the only thing that does not compare. If an oil will not hold up in a high rev'ing simple twin cam piston engine how can you expect it to hold up in an engine with twice the heat at the exhaust.
and then finally... why would you want to use an oil that had a ton of additives to get a wide viscosity range??? I don't know about you, but I personally want as few extra additives in my oil or my food or anything as possible... using 10W40 or 10W50 does not follow that.
Last edited by Icemark; 05-15-05 at 09:01 PM.
05-16-05, 09:00 AM
#18
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally Posted by Sindregutt
Hmm, but using 10W40 just to test the engine.. (got Castrol GTX 10W40 VERY VERY cheap)
I`ll change oil when i`m going to start using the car...
Thats okey?
I`ll change oil when i`m going to start using the car...
Thats okey?
I don't recommend 10W40, (for the above reasons- but also because I don't see the point- I doubt 99% of our cars are ever started above at temps above 110F) but others do recommend 10W40.
If there is a difference in cost between a 10W40 and 10W30, enough for you to justify its use, well who am I to say that you shouldn't. Just some voice on the internet.
05-16-05, 11:39 AM
#20
Carter 2.0
I always stick with brands that race. Racing fuels developement. Developement is good for consumers and Average Joe's. I'm sticking with Castrol GTX 20-50. I personally have been racing with it for over 20 years.
05-16-05, 05:33 PM
#21
Opinions are like........
Oil has come a long way.
API/ILSAC/ACEA/SAE/..... have gone out of their way to give us excellent oils regardless of the weight.
Higher quality basestocks and additives in todays oil make the weight choice less of an issue.
We've gone from the SF oils to now SM. To think that there are people still using SA/SB/SC oils from the local $1 store, jobber market, or discounter. I've watched people grab a quart and pour it into their new cars.
10w40 has a bad rap because it is the #1 weight of oil for do-it-yourselfers.
Bad reputations are caused when someone neglects/abuses their vehicle and need something to blame for failures.
It always easier to blame the oil brand, the oil weight, the additives, the whatever..... but noone ever blames themselves.
If your engine fails, ITS YOUR FAULT.
Just read through this thread. Someone was almost two quarts low!
When you're almost two quarts low, it doesn't make a difference what oil you use. You are roasting your oil and eventually will cook your engine.
I will continue to use the oils that everyone is afraid of. Yep, theres 10w60 in the garage along with 0w40 and 5w40. Hell, 10w40 and 10w50 aren't a wide enough spread for me to even try! The 5w60 and 0w50 are overly expensive for my 2.5k or 3mo oil/filter change intervals.
And, concerning all the ash/carbon talk. After looking at some of the dyno charts posted with A/F ratios. It seems to me that the TRUE cause of carbon/ash buildup is the PIG RICH RATIO. Thank Mazda for that!
Noone can prove that a weight or type of oil can destroy an engine.
You can prove that infrequent maintenance will sludge an engine(never change the oil and tell me what happens).
You can prove that pig rich A/F ratios will cause carbon buildup(bump your fuel PSI or install failed 02 sensor and examine your spark plugs after a week).
You can prove that low oil levels will reduce the engine life(never top off the oil and let me know what happens).
Concerning the boingers that Toyota makes, there were only 3300 complaints filed when Toyota decided to address the issue out of how many million engines. I wish that all automakers would react to that small of a % of complaints.
API/ILSAC/ACEA/SAE/..... have gone out of their way to give us excellent oils regardless of the weight.
Higher quality basestocks and additives in todays oil make the weight choice less of an issue.
We've gone from the SF oils to now SM. To think that there are people still using SA/SB/SC oils from the local $1 store, jobber market, or discounter. I've watched people grab a quart and pour it into their new cars.
10w40 has a bad rap because it is the #1 weight of oil for do-it-yourselfers.
Bad reputations are caused when someone neglects/abuses their vehicle and need something to blame for failures.
It always easier to blame the oil brand, the oil weight, the additives, the whatever..... but noone ever blames themselves.
If your engine fails, ITS YOUR FAULT.
Just read through this thread. Someone was almost two quarts low!
When you're almost two quarts low, it doesn't make a difference what oil you use. You are roasting your oil and eventually will cook your engine.
I will continue to use the oils that everyone is afraid of. Yep, theres 10w60 in the garage along with 0w40 and 5w40. Hell, 10w40 and 10w50 aren't a wide enough spread for me to even try! The 5w60 and 0w50 are overly expensive for my 2.5k or 3mo oil/filter change intervals.
And, concerning all the ash/carbon talk. After looking at some of the dyno charts posted with A/F ratios. It seems to me that the TRUE cause of carbon/ash buildup is the PIG RICH RATIO. Thank Mazda for that!
Noone can prove that a weight or type of oil can destroy an engine.
You can prove that infrequent maintenance will sludge an engine(never change the oil and tell me what happens).
You can prove that pig rich A/F ratios will cause carbon buildup(bump your fuel PSI or install failed 02 sensor and examine your spark plugs after a week).
You can prove that low oil levels will reduce the engine life(never top off the oil and let me know what happens).
Concerning the boingers that Toyota makes, there were only 3300 complaints filed when Toyota decided to address the issue out of how many million engines. I wish that all automakers would react to that small of a % of complaints.
05-16-05, 10:42 PM
#23
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
For those again, who are unable to search and read it:
More Than You Ever Wanted to Know About Motor Oil
by Ed Hackett (edh@maxey.unr.edu)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Choosing the best motor oil is a topic that comes up frequently in discussions between motoheads, whether they are talking about motorcycles or cars. The following article is intended to help you make a choice based on more than the advertising hype.
Oil companies provide data on their oils most often referred to as "typical inspection data". This is an average of the actual physical and a few common chemical properties of their oils. This information is available to the public through their distributors or by writing or calling the company directly. I have compiled a list of the most popular, premium oils so that a ready comparison can be made. If your favorite oil is not on the list get the data from the distributor and use what I have as a data base.
This article is going to look at six of the most important properties of a motor oil readily available to the public: viscosity, viscosity index (VI), flash point, pour point, % sulfated ash, and % zinc.
Viscosity is a measure of the "flowability" of an oil. More specifically, it is the property of an oil to develop and maintain a certain amount of shearing stress dependent on flow, and then to offer continued resistance to flow. Thicker oils generally have a higher viscosity, and thinner oils a lower viscosity. This is the most important property for an engine. An oil with too low a viscosity can shear and loose film strength at high temperatures. An oil with too high a viscosity may not pump to the proper parts at low temperatures and the film may tear at high rpm.
The weights given on oils are arbitrary numbers assigned by the S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers). These numbers correspond to "real" viscosity, as measured by several accepted techniques. These measurements are taken at specific temperatures. Oils that fall into a certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 by the S.A.E. The W means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore suitable for Winter use.
The following chart shows the relationship of "real" viscosity to their S.A.E. assigned numbers. The relationship of gear oils to engine oils is also shown.
__________________________________________________ _____________
| |
| SAE Gear Viscosity Number |
| __________________________________________________ ______ |
| |75W |80W |85W| 90 | 140 | |
| |____|_____|___|______________|___________________ _____| |
| |
| SAE Crank Case Viscosity Number |
| ____________________________ |
| |10| 20 | 30 | 40 | 50 | |
| |__|_____|____|_____|______| |
__________________________________________________ ____________
2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42
viscosity cSt @ 100 degrees C
Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot.
Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter, in the summer, the highest temperature you expect. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers (synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best.
Very few manufactures recommend 10W-40 any more, and some threaten to void warranties if it is used. It was not included in this article for that reason. 20W-50 is the same 30 point spread, but because it starts with a heavier base it requires less viscosity index improvers (polymers) to do the job. AMSOIL can formulate their 10W-30 and 15W-40 with no viscosity index improvers but uses some in the 10W-40 and 5W-30. Mobil 1 uses no viscosity improvers in their 5W-30, and I assume the new 10W-30. Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are appropriate for your vehicle.
Viscosity Index is an empirical number indicating the rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range. It is not an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown.
Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil. The lower the flash point the greater tendency for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used. The higher the flash point the better. 400 F is the minimum to prevent possible high consumption. Flash point is in degrees F.
Pour point is 5 degrees F above the point at which a chilled oil shows no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined. This measurement is especially important for oils used in the winter. A borderline pumping temperature is given by some manufacturers. This is the temperature at which the oil will pump and maintain adequate oil pressure. This was not given by a lot of the manufacturers, but seems to be about 20 degrees F above the pour point. The lower the pour point the better. Pour point is in degrees F.
% sulfated ash is how much solid material is left when the oil burns. A high ash content will tend to form more sludge and deposits in the engine. Low ash content also seems to promote long valve life. Look for oils with a low ash content.
% zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti- wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of .11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval, under normal use. Those of you with high revving, air cooled motorcycles or turbo charged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling.
The Data:
Listed alphabetically --- indicates the data was not available
Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-50
AMSOIL 136 482 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .9 ---
Quaker State Dlx. 155 430 -25 .9 ---
Red Line 150 503 -49 --- ---
Shell Truck Guard 130 450 -15 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 --- .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 --- .13
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12
20W-40
Castrol Multi-Grade 110 440 -15 .85 .12
Quaker State 121 415 -15 .9 ---
15W-50
Chevron 204 415 -18 .96 .11
Mobil 1 170 470 -55 --- ---
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 152 503 -49 --- ---
5W-50
Castrol Syntec 180 437 -45 1.2 .10 .095 % Phosphor
Quaker State Synquest 173 457 -76 --- ---
Pennzoil Performax 176 --- -69 --- ---
5W-40
Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4 ---
15W-40
AMSOIL 135 460 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400 136 421 -27 1.0 ---
Exxon XD3 --- 417 -11 .9 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 149 495 -40 --- ---
Shell Rotella w/XLA 146 410 -25 1.0 .13
Valvoline All Fleet 140 --- -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13
10W-30
AMSOIL 142 480 -70 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 140 415 -33 .85 .12
Chevron Supreme 150 401 -26 .96 .11
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 160 450 -65 --- ---
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0 ---
Quaker State 156 410 -30 .9 ---
Red Line 139 475 -40 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 155 410 -35 .9 .12
Shell Super 2000 155 410 -35 1.0 .13
Shell Truck Guard 155 405 -35 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40 --- ---
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12
5W-30
AMSOIL 168 480 -76 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 156 400 -35 .80 .12
Chevron Supreme 202? 354 -46 .96 .11
Chevron Supreme Synt. 165 446 -72 1.1 .12
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0 ---
Mobil 1 165 445 -65 --- ---
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .1
Quaker State 165 405 -35 .9 ---
Red Line 151 455 -49 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12
All of the oils above meet current SG/CD ratings and all vehicle manufacture's warranty requirements in the proper viscosity. All are "good enough", but those with the better numbers are icing on the cake.
The synthetics offer the only truly significant differences, due to their superior high temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics. Synthetics are superior lubricants compared to traditional petroleum oils. You will have to decide if their high cost is justified in your application.
The extended oil drain intervals given by the vehicle manufacturers (typically 7500 miles) and synthetic oil companies (up to 25,000 miles) are for what is called normal service. Normal service is defined as the engine at normal operating temperature, at highway speeds, and in a dust free environment. Stop and go, city driving, trips of less than 10 miles, or extreme heat or cold puts the oil change interval into the severe service category, which is 3000 miles for most vehicles. Synthetics can be run two to three times the mileage of petroleum oils with no problems. They do not react to combustion and combustion by-products to the extent that the dead dinosaur juice does. The longer drain intervals possible help take the bite out of the higher cost of the synthetics. If your car or bike is still under warranty you will have to stick to the recommended drain intervals. These are set for petroleum oils and the manufacturers make no official allowance for the use of synthetics.
Oil additives should not be used. The oil companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive package that meets the vehicle's requirements. Some of these additives are synergistic, that is the effect of two additives together is greater than the effect of each acting separately. If you add anything to the oil you may upset this balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification.
The numbers above are not, by any means, all there is to determining what makes a top quality oil. The exact base stock used, the type, quality, and quantity of additives used are very important. The given data combined with the manufacturer's claims, your personal experience, and the reputation of the oil among others who use it should help you make an informed choice.
Originally posted on: The Vintage Triumph Register
Copyright 1995 - 2003 | All World Rights Reserved
by Ed Hackett (edh@maxey.unr.edu)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Choosing the best motor oil is a topic that comes up frequently in discussions between motoheads, whether they are talking about motorcycles or cars. The following article is intended to help you make a choice based on more than the advertising hype.
Oil companies provide data on their oils most often referred to as "typical inspection data". This is an average of the actual physical and a few common chemical properties of their oils. This information is available to the public through their distributors or by writing or calling the company directly. I have compiled a list of the most popular, premium oils so that a ready comparison can be made. If your favorite oil is not on the list get the data from the distributor and use what I have as a data base.
This article is going to look at six of the most important properties of a motor oil readily available to the public: viscosity, viscosity index (VI), flash point, pour point, % sulfated ash, and % zinc.
Viscosity is a measure of the "flowability" of an oil. More specifically, it is the property of an oil to develop and maintain a certain amount of shearing stress dependent on flow, and then to offer continued resistance to flow. Thicker oils generally have a higher viscosity, and thinner oils a lower viscosity. This is the most important property for an engine. An oil with too low a viscosity can shear and loose film strength at high temperatures. An oil with too high a viscosity may not pump to the proper parts at low temperatures and the film may tear at high rpm.
The weights given on oils are arbitrary numbers assigned by the S.A.E. (Society of Automotive Engineers). These numbers correspond to "real" viscosity, as measured by several accepted techniques. These measurements are taken at specific temperatures. Oils that fall into a certain range are designated 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 by the S.A.E. The W means the oil meets specifications for viscosity at 0 F and is therefore suitable for Winter use.
The following chart shows the relationship of "real" viscosity to their S.A.E. assigned numbers. The relationship of gear oils to engine oils is also shown.
__________________________________________________ _____________
| |
| SAE Gear Viscosity Number |
| __________________________________________________ ______ |
| |75W |80W |85W| 90 | 140 | |
| |____|_____|___|______________|___________________ _____| |
| |
| SAE Crank Case Viscosity Number |
| ____________________________ |
| |10| 20 | 30 | 40 | 50 | |
| |__|_____|____|_____|______| |
__________________________________________________ ____________
2 4 6 8 10 12 14 16 18 20 22 24 26 28 30 32 34 36 38 40 42
viscosity cSt @ 100 degrees C
Multi viscosity oils work like this: Polymers are added to a light base (5W, 10W, 20W), which prevent the oil from thinning as much as it warms up. At cold temperatures the polymers are coiled up and allow the oil to flow as their low numbers indicate. As the oil warms up the polymers begin to unwind into long chains that prevent the oil from thinning as much as it normally would. The result is that at 100 degrees C the oil has thinned only as much as the higher viscosity number indicates. Another way of looking at multi-vis oils is to think of a 20W-50 as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight would when hot.
Multi viscosity oils are one of the great improvements in oils, but they should be chosen wisely. Always use a multi grade with the narrowest span of viscosity that is appropriate for the temperatures you are going to encounter. In the winter base your decision on the lowest temperature you will encounter, in the summer, the highest temperature you expect. The polymers can shear and burn forming deposits that can cause ring sticking and other problems. 10W-40 and 5W-30 require a lot of polymers (synthetics excluded) to achieve that range. This has caused problems in diesel engines, but fewer polymers are better for all engines. The wide viscosity range oils, in general, are more prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown due to the high polymer content. It is the oil that lubricates, not the additives. Oils that can do their job with the fewest additives are the best.
Very few manufactures recommend 10W-40 any more, and some threaten to void warranties if it is used. It was not included in this article for that reason. 20W-50 is the same 30 point spread, but because it starts with a heavier base it requires less viscosity index improvers (polymers) to do the job. AMSOIL can formulate their 10W-30 and 15W-40 with no viscosity index improvers but uses some in the 10W-40 and 5W-30. Mobil 1 uses no viscosity improvers in their 5W-30, and I assume the new 10W-30. Follow your manufacturer's recommendations as to which weights are appropriate for your vehicle.
Viscosity Index is an empirical number indicating the rate of change in viscosity of an oil within a given temperature range. Higher numbers indicate a low change, lower numbers indicate a relatively large change. The higher the number the better. This is one major property of an oil that keeps your bearings happy. These numbers can only be compared within a viscosity range. It is not an indication of how well the oil resists thermal breakdown.
Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil. The lower the flash point the greater tendency for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used. The higher the flash point the better. 400 F is the minimum to prevent possible high consumption. Flash point is in degrees F.
Pour point is 5 degrees F above the point at which a chilled oil shows no movement at the surface for 5 seconds when inclined. This measurement is especially important for oils used in the winter. A borderline pumping temperature is given by some manufacturers. This is the temperature at which the oil will pump and maintain adequate oil pressure. This was not given by a lot of the manufacturers, but seems to be about 20 degrees F above the pour point. The lower the pour point the better. Pour point is in degrees F.
% sulfated ash is how much solid material is left when the oil burns. A high ash content will tend to form more sludge and deposits in the engine. Low ash content also seems to promote long valve life. Look for oils with a low ash content.
% zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti- wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of .11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval, under normal use. Those of you with high revving, air cooled motorcycles or turbo charged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling.
The Data:
Listed alphabetically --- indicates the data was not available
Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-50
AMSOIL 136 482 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .9 ---
Quaker State Dlx. 155 430 -25 .9 ---
Red Line 150 503 -49 --- ---
Shell Truck Guard 130 450 -15 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 --- .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 --- .13
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12
20W-40
Castrol Multi-Grade 110 440 -15 .85 .12
Quaker State 121 415 -15 .9 ---
15W-50
Chevron 204 415 -18 .96 .11
Mobil 1 170 470 -55 --- ---
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 152 503 -49 --- ---
5W-50
Castrol Syntec 180 437 -45 1.2 .10 .095 % Phosphor
Quaker State Synquest 173 457 -76 --- ---
Pennzoil Performax 176 --- -69 --- ---
5W-40
Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4 ---
15W-40
AMSOIL 135 460 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400 136 421 -27 1.0 ---
Exxon XD3 --- 417 -11 .9 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 149 495 -40 --- ---
Shell Rotella w/XLA 146 410 -25 1.0 .13
Valvoline All Fleet 140 --- -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13
10W-30
AMSOIL 142 480 -70 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 140 415 -33 .85 .12
Chevron Supreme 150 401 -26 .96 .11
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 160 450 -65 --- ---
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0 ---
Quaker State 156 410 -30 .9 ---
Red Line 139 475 -40 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 155 410 -35 .9 .12
Shell Super 2000 155 410 -35 1.0 .13
Shell Truck Guard 155 405 -35 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40 --- ---
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12
5W-30
AMSOIL 168 480 -76 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 156 400 -35 .80 .12
Chevron Supreme 202? 354 -46 .96 .11
Chevron Supreme Synt. 165 446 -72 1.1 .12
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0 ---
Mobil 1 165 445 -65 --- ---
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .1
Quaker State 165 405 -35 .9 ---
Red Line 151 455 -49 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12
All of the oils above meet current SG/CD ratings and all vehicle manufacture's warranty requirements in the proper viscosity. All are "good enough", but those with the better numbers are icing on the cake.
The synthetics offer the only truly significant differences, due to their superior high temperature oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temperature flow characteristics. Synthetics are superior lubricants compared to traditional petroleum oils. You will have to decide if their high cost is justified in your application.
The extended oil drain intervals given by the vehicle manufacturers (typically 7500 miles) and synthetic oil companies (up to 25,000 miles) are for what is called normal service. Normal service is defined as the engine at normal operating temperature, at highway speeds, and in a dust free environment. Stop and go, city driving, trips of less than 10 miles, or extreme heat or cold puts the oil change interval into the severe service category, which is 3000 miles for most vehicles. Synthetics can be run two to three times the mileage of petroleum oils with no problems. They do not react to combustion and combustion by-products to the extent that the dead dinosaur juice does. The longer drain intervals possible help take the bite out of the higher cost of the synthetics. If your car or bike is still under warranty you will have to stick to the recommended drain intervals. These are set for petroleum oils and the manufacturers make no official allowance for the use of synthetics.
Oil additives should not be used. The oil companies have gone to great lengths to develop an additive package that meets the vehicle's requirements. Some of these additives are synergistic, that is the effect of two additives together is greater than the effect of each acting separately. If you add anything to the oil you may upset this balance and prevent the oil from performing to specification.
The numbers above are not, by any means, all there is to determining what makes a top quality oil. The exact base stock used, the type, quality, and quantity of additives used are very important. The given data combined with the manufacturer's claims, your personal experience, and the reputation of the oil among others who use it should help you make an informed choice.
Originally posted on: The Vintage Triumph Register
Copyright 1995 - 2003 | All World Rights Reserved
05-16-05, 10:48 PM
#24
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
05-17-05, 04:09 PM
#25
Opinions are like........
The above data is VERY old.
SG/CD oils???? Can you even buy those anymore. Everything now is SL or SM. Diesel specs are up to CI+.
Sulfated ash has a different definition here:
http://www.swri.edu/4org/d08/global/SulfAsh/default.htm
Oil additives can be used. Oil companies want profit. They will use the cheapeast and least amount of additives that they can possible get away with.
Since we don't use gear oil in engines, weight comparisons are meaningless.
SAE J300 concerns motor oil weights:
http://www.infineum.com/information/...sity-2004.html
SAE J306 concerns gear oils:
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReferen...rs/default.asp
A simple chart comparison of the newer GF4 performance compared to the GF2 and GF3 oils we are using:
http://www.penrite.com.au/techbullet...M_AND_GF-4.pdf
Multiviscosity works the way the oil company wants to blend it. There are different basestocks and viscosity index improvers that can be used. You get what you pay for. The better oils use better basestocks and need less "polymers" to meet the SAE grade.
If you want an informed decision, read the various SAE/ILMA/ILSAC/ACEA papers and info(some available on their website). Also, the oil companies, the oil additive companies, and other organizations, have better info, test data, test requirements and specs........
It funny how everyone here recommends WEAK 20w50 oils when there are so many STOUT 20, 30 and 40 wt oils.
SG/CD oils???? Can you even buy those anymore. Everything now is SL or SM. Diesel specs are up to CI+.
Sulfated ash has a different definition here:
http://www.swri.edu/4org/d08/global/SulfAsh/default.htm
Oil additives can be used. Oil companies want profit. They will use the cheapeast and least amount of additives that they can possible get away with.
Since we don't use gear oil in engines, weight comparisons are meaningless.
SAE J300 concerns motor oil weights:
http://www.infineum.com/information/...sity-2004.html
SAE J306 concerns gear oils:
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReferen...rs/default.asp
A simple chart comparison of the newer GF4 performance compared to the GF2 and GF3 oils we are using:
http://www.penrite.com.au/techbullet...M_AND_GF-4.pdf
Multiviscosity works the way the oil company wants to blend it. There are different basestocks and viscosity index improvers that can be used. You get what you pay for. The better oils use better basestocks and need less "polymers" to meet the SAE grade.
If you want an informed decision, read the various SAE/ILMA/ILSAC/ACEA papers and info(some available on their website). Also, the oil companies, the oil additive companies, and other organizations, have better info, test data, test requirements and specs........
It funny how everyone here recommends WEAK 20w50 oils when there are so many STOUT 20, 30 and 40 wt oils.