slpin

iTrader: (9)

I was talking about that to. Do you realize the rotor doesnt start compressing anything at the location of the oil injectors? if you have ever seen a rotary apart, maybe youd understand


you don't understand the concept of pressure, do you? just because there is no PSI above atmosphere, an engine creating vaccum - hence, below atmosphere, is operating at the same concept. for example, if your motor is pulling 35inhg on vaccum, you can view that as having 15 psi of air pushing into the motor.


you dont have to, pick any number, 1 psi, 8 psi, 20 psi, it is the same concept. pressure above atmosphere is pressure above atmosphere, just because it goes past a certain psi, no magic ponies fly out



anyone who have done this would know the emop fries in no time...
not to mention the s5 owner would have to swap front covers...

on a s4... using the full range tps just makes setting idle tps harder... i dont see any gain on it seeing as how the fuel map is based on the afm....

magus2222

iTrader: (22)

hm, i would just like to see some kind of premix setup, without having to run 2-stroke in the gastank, and without somekind of one-off-jenked-to-hell setup, and provide some kind of idea towards a good setup.
personally, i dont see any problem with the mechanical mop setup. and ****, if you dont like the stock mop lines, make your own, its not rocket science, i have seen multiple threads on how to make them, as well as sortof-half-*** how-to on how to make Stainless steel braided teflon lines.

peace

RotaMan99

Actually it does. The sealed chamber is becoming smaller as the apex seals comes closer to the oil injector. How is this not compressing air?

I know this. Do you realize that there is no real vacuum where the only injector gets its air on a n/a engine? And on a t2, when you put 8 psi of air into the chamber, as the chamber starts to get smaller, your compressing the air creating a little high pressure then what is in the intake.

You do realize that no matter what PSI you put in the engine, that pressure in the chamber when it starts to compress will always be greater.

Yes you would have to swap front covers which means taking off the water pump housings as well. The writeup is there for owners that WANT to swap parts. Its all personal preference. IF they want the mechanical OMP on a s5, fine or if the want to use a full range TPS on a s4 for a piggy back such as SAFC, thats fine too.

Actually wiring a full range TPS to the TPS input on the ECU will make the car almost undrivable. Using the full range tps is what SAFC users beg for.
Fuel map is based on water temp, and intake temp, boot/pressure readings and RPM as well. Not only AFM.

I have never heard about the E-OMP stop working due to removing it from the engine. I can see how it would though but I myself have not heard of it. Not saying it hasn't happend.

TitaniumTT

Here we go again - STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where are your credentials? Have you been to college? Do you have the applicable degrees to talk intellegently about combustion chamber pressures? If you do, I would like to see a picture of said degree with your name on it posted here. I sincerely doubt you possess the knowledge to intellegently post-up about what is being asked here. All you are doing is what has bothered me about you since day 1. You take whatever your brain can rationalize and are posting it as fact when MOST times it is completely and utterly WRONG. I can see a few glaring errors in your logic - for example - An N/A engine is operating under vacuum therefore it takes SOME COMPRESSION of the charge that is under VACCUUM to return it to atmospheric pressure. When does that happen? Have you done the math? Have you done the experiments? I doubt it so STFU!!!!!!!

Prove everything that you are saying regarding combustion chamber pressures at different timing on the intake strokes. Prove it with tests and math or just stop your senseless yammering. You make it so easy for me, or anyone else for that matter, disprove you and make you look like a "whiny little pusy bitch" (remember that?) that craves attention and acceptance.

Seriosuly Justin - stop posting your thoughts as fact - you are most often wrong

pfsantos

iTrader: (1)

O.K., I've been trying to remain neutral on the whole issue of stock versus pre-mix reservoir with MOP versus pre-mix in tank.

I like the simplicity of stock, the better use of 2-stroke in the reservoir (low maintenance, but am leaning on pre-mixing on the tank (not that much more work really).

The reason is, I can't ignore that shiny bit inside the rotor housings near the oil injectors. That is proof to me of less wear, and premixing in the gas tank would suggest I can get equally less wear throughout the whole chamber (well, kind of).

Are we in agreement here, ignoring the extra work involved, that this is (premixing in gas tank 2-stroke) the best for long term reliability and internal deposit reduction?

cbquad

be carreful with the lines

RotaMan99

http://wombat.sevarg.net/RX7/RX-7_Tr...n%20System.pdf

Last page.

While looking at that page again and looking at my spare parts, I now can't understand why Mazda says the check valves close when the chamber is under compression.

Thats exactly what the oil injectors on the engine do. Lubricate the surface of the housing and apex seals directly. The oil gets spread along the apex seal. The injectors in the LIM are atomized in the air stream to lubricate like premix would.

HAILERS

Page 2-5 of that manual mentioned above..............third paragraph that begins "When vacuum is createdi n the combustion chamber and intake manifold during the suction period, the check valve is pulled open and allows air to mix with the oil.

During the compression period, pressure is applied and the valve closes to prevent backflow of the oil into the connecting hose."

Frankly speaking, the oil injector nozzle hole is in the Intake part of the *stroke* virtually 90* of the time imho. Looking at the picture on page 2-5.

I look and see the the two intake ports in the intermediate housing. The way I see it, the apex seal has just gone past the exhaust port. Now it travels upwards. It passes the lower port hole and starts sucking in the fuel mixuture.....keeps on traveling up and passes the aux port hole, still sucking in fuel and air.....keeps on moving clockwise in the picuture, until the apex seal following the one just mentioned, gets past that aux hole. Now the mixuture is being compressed. The oil injector nozzle hole is just after the aux hole and isn't in the compression part of the *stroke* but for a very brief period of time.

To me that oil nozzle hole is having the oil sucked into the chamber most all the time b/t the first apex seal passing by til the second apex seal comes along.

I agree the checkvalve in the nozzle is subjected to pressure, but only for a small period of time.

That's just the way I see it. I could always be wrong. Anybody see it differently?

http://wombat.sevarg.net/RX7/RX-7_Tr...n%20System.pdf

Actually I looked at a spare engine just partially put together. I looked in from the rear looking at the rotor as it turned, and I knew where the oil nozzle hole was in the rotor housing and could look directly at the aux hole in the intermediate housing, and that's the way I see/saw things.

I suggest looking at one apex seal as it travels clockwise. Look at it as it just passes the exhaust port and travels upward. Look at what is happening Behind that apex seal, not in front of it. Once that seal starts past the first intake hole, it's in the intake stroke (the area aft of that first seal). That area b/t the first apex seal and the one just behind it are in the Intake stroke, and that stroke won't end until the second apex seal passes the upper intake hole. From there on its in the compression stroke.

That's why if the engine is idling and you remove the oil injector spiders hose from the intake manifold, you feel vacuum From the hose. The vacuum is coming from the intake stroke of a rotor.

Something like that. Anyway, the injector is in the compression part of the *stroke* for a very short period compared to the intake part of the Intake stroke. That almost made sense.

mzrx7man

iTrader: (9)

so what hp level would this be good up to? i mean the 1/100 mix that it says it does.

RotaMan99

Ya thats what I saw after looking at my spare parts as well. I though "maybe" mazda placed the injector closer to the port in the picture then it actually is.

It seems the apex seal only has to travel about 3/8", not even, after the intake port closes, to pass over the oil injector hole. Considering when people do a street port, they allow the port to close later, I consider this extra 3/8"? to still be in vacuum period or intake stroke. Damn mazda, I trusted that training manual!

I was almost going to hook up a vacuum/pressure gauge to one of my injectors since the check valve does not work anymore, to see if the gauge bounces out of vacuum and into pressure. I may still do this for the hell of it but I highly doubt it will do that now.

TitaniumTT

So now we're measuring port timing in inches?

tom.jelly

Just fitted the poly oil tank to a bracket and also installed the level sensor in the tank, here are some pictures. level sensor is from liquidlevel.com, part # sm-1100-pp, it works with a magnetic swinging float, you may need access to the inside of the tank thru the lid so you can keep it from turning as you tighten the nut that holds it in so keep that in mind when deciding where to install it in the tank. I put my tank against the drivers frame rail; I don't know it there would be space there on a car with ac or ps, I have neither. the tank is part #061206 from flambeau, inc of madison, GA ($27.10) thick walled poly. I think the level sensor was about $22.
Tom

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

I've decided to just look for new OMP lines and use a RB OMP adapter. It's been good kicking some ideas around. Maybe if I get ambitious with some actual cash to throw around I'll make a way to premix to the tank.

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

Tom,
That looks good. Have you measured to see if the bottom of the tank is at least 6 inches above the OMP adapter inlet? I too picked up a tank recently off eBay. A 2 stroke oil tank of a Quad bike that looks too be about 1.5 quart capacity and is of a reletively decent shape. Paid $16 incl. shipping. I'll post a pic of where I'd like to put it. This all depends though - I need to get the engine in the car first !

Thanks for posting the pics!
Crispy

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Once your intercooler piping is in place is the fill cap for the reservoir accessible?

TitaniumTT

Tom,

Looks really good. Digging the mounting too. I've decided to completely redo my tank. I'll be starting with some 3" or 3.5" OD Al tube and go from there. Thanks for that liquid level site. Hopefully I can find something there thats cheaper than the $85 sensor I found

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

TitaniumTT,
Why not just buy a tank with a sensor already fitted and ditch the tank to keep the sensor? 2 stroke oil tanks from ATV's 2 stroke bikes and PWC's are a dime a dozen on eBay.
FWIW,
Crispy

TitaniumTT

Mainly because of where I want to put it and how the wiring is already done for it. I have the level alert wired in with the sump level which is wired in with the engine harness that is already done and pinned with bulkhead connectors. I also want to be able to baffle it and set the low level where I want it to be. Plus I have a TIG and love to weld and creat one off parts. Here's of pic of the tank now (almost dead center where the air-pump once was) and it's basically going into the trash. I'm ordering this as a cap too. Weld in, pop up and vented

TitaniumTT

So I finally found a good source for the filler cap nd finally got meh tank done. Here's the short of it

Here you can see the tank, the baffle and the bottom. The two fittings are -6an for the feed and the 1/2" NPT or the low oil sender shown at the bottom of the page. It's not here yet but will be shortly



Finished tank mounted but with the top closed - oh so sexy



Cap pops up to grip and spin if off



And there you can see the baffle and how much room there is to fill it up



From underneath you can see how tight it is but it fits well. I am happy with is



And the sender. The float needs to drop <1/4" for it to work. This will put the level and just about 1/2 full. The capacity is almost a quart so if I refill that tank with every tank of gas I should never even get close to 1/2 empty.

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

Dude, you have a S4, right? So, stop bitching and freaking out about your OMP, rebuild it as well as the lines, put it all back in, and forget it! IT wont need to be touched for another 100,000 miles AT LEAST! Even Aaron Cake agrees with doing this, and you know that HE knows his stuff!

The S4 mechanical OMP system is MUCH better than the newer S5 one, which seems weird, but it's true! You would think that Mazda would do something like add a separate reservoir for the injected oilin the RX-8 renesis , but even they decided against it!

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

Dude, you haven't understood a single thing I've said, right? I'm not bitching, I'm not freaking out, I was just looking at alternatives. Aaron Cake is also a shining example of experimentation with different projects, and I like to explore ideas that haven't seen much light, especially if they could actually prove useful.

The S4 and S5 systems have their pros and cons, and while the S4 seems to outweigh the S5 OMP system, it still isn't ideal for what I want. Who cares what Mazda decides? Their decision is heavily biased by demographics, not the minuscule percentage of Mazda rotary owners that will care enough to keep filthy motor oil from being injected into the combustion chambers, or even know that the system exists at all. I'm willing to bet that using an external source of oil can prolong rotary engine life, and even if I'm wrong I seriously doubt that it will do the opposite and shorten the engine life. I have little to lose here.

Don't come into my thread and tell me "you're doing it wrong", you clearly don't understand my reasons or my natural curiosity. I'm trying to build the best car for me and thought "Hey, maybe someone else might be interested in this, too." And it would seem I was right, as this is the third page of interesting information people have presented on the subject.

Chaotic_FC

so correct me if i'm horribly wrong, but i dont see why you couldn't just tie the oil injectors into the fuel injectors, so that way you have the best of both worlds. that is, unless what i read about it being more evenly distributed when pre-mixed is total bs.

TitaniumTT

You are horribly wrong

How are you going to generate close to 60PSI worth of pressure in the lines to mix the oil with the fuel?

Not to mention it's a return type fuel system and you'll be constantly injecting oil and having some return to the tank thereby screwing the mix up. THe only way is after the fuel injectors.

O/B motors do this behind the carbs, behind the reeds as well. Same principal. Mechanical oil metering pump run off the crank that has a valve tied to the carb linkage to vary the mix between ~200:1 and 50:1. The older ones anyway. I haven't really been screwing around with the new ones all that much but even some of the FI 2 cycle O/B's used the same principal. Doesn't matter though as most are 4-cycle anyway.

/tangent

Asterisk

iTrader: (3)

Ok, I gotcha! It must have been the Naruto avatar of yours....

EDIT: why would you NOT want to use the stock pump and oil squirters? I see having the oil come from a separate tank in the engine bay, rather than from the oil pan, but why re-engineer the WHOLE thing when most of it is done for you already?

I think personally, that: stock system is STILL fine, apart from where the oil comes from, which is the pan.

I am a bit confused about exactly WHAT you are trying to do here still.. sorry

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

Simply put, the oil will be best distributed to lubricate the chambers if it is essentially vaporized before ever entering the chambers. The stock system does not do that, and it's been shown in motors using the stock OMP injectors that they have wear patterns indicative of where the oil enters the chambers. This makes it apparent that the lubrication is not even throughout. For longevity of the motor, the best method of lubrication is clearly the best choice for someone with peak longevity in mind. Mazda wanted a hassle free system, and yes, it works well, but isn't designed for peak longevity. Even distribution may also create a slightly better compression seal, but using quality parts and tolerancing them properly will probably make much more of a difference in regards to compression.

As I was answering your question though, I just realized that to spread oil evenly into the intake mixture, you wouldn't necessarily have to put it into the fuel first. It might be possible to injected oil into the intake charge in such a way that it vaporizes consistently. Anyone have any ideas on how to do that? Oil doesn't exactly evaporate well on its own... Really fine misters? Inject oil between the fuel injectors and combustion chambers?