SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

I've seen some people describe their oil injection systems, systems designed so that they can premix without having to put oil into the gas tank, but I can't seem to find any specifically that didn't still use the stock OMP and injectors to accomplish it. I'm looking for a way to do this without the stock OMP, mainly because I dislike the brittle lines running to the oil injectors, I'm hoping there's another way. I would certainly consider methods that would mix the oil into the gas as gas is used or maybe drained into the gas tank according to how much gas is added at each fill.

So I want to avoid three things here:
1) Having to pour oil into the gas tank at every fill.
2) Using the stock OMP.
3) If practical, using the stock oil injectors as well.

Better yet would be something that doesn't require ANY sort of extra pump at all and would just mix the 2 stroke oil with the gas in the tank without the mess and annoyance of using the tank's gas inlet, but would somehow know how much to add. I would even be ok with a device that allows a certain amount of oil into the tank calculated by a number of gallons filled I tell it, I just want something that's much less fuss and at little to no risk of mechanical or vacuum line failure. I would use an oil level sensor that operates along with the level sensor in the oil pan to alert me through the warning light and buzzer in the event of low oil level(s) and, once I figure out a way to do so, in the event of electrical component failure.

fc3s91

iTrader: (23)

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/oil_in...p_adaptors.htm

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

I've seen that already, and here's the relevant excerpt, emphasis added:
"The Metering Pump Adapter, as offered by PCV Technologies takes the solution one step further in allowing to still using the stock metering pump but supply it with two-stroke oil. This adaptor pump is installed in conjunction with the stock oil metering pump."

Thruan

hey guys.. had a thought.. 2 stroke bikes such as the rs250 have a seperate resovur(sp) then the fuel tank, and it automatically mixes it as the fuel is used.. mite be worth while giving your local aprillia dealer/workshop a call and asking them, dont talk to the salesmen, or the spare parts guys, ask for the workshop.. that being said, they run carbies and have either a very small (3psi) or no fuel pump at all, so a high pressure system set up mite not work... worth a look though..

TitaniumTT

You want something to mix without a pump?

Outboards have seperate oil resevoirs but they use a pump that usually turns off the crankshaft and it mixes directly behing the carbs.

I see 2 horrid points of failure with the OMP that are easily overcome -
- the lines - Call Goodridge
- Sump oil - Call Phil Sohn @ Real World

just my $.02

RotaMan99

This is the ONLY reason?

New OMP lines are actually very flexible and are less likely to break unlike the old britle lines.

No matter what direction you go, maintenance will be required.

I have seen some SS braided lines as well.

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

Not the only reason. I really like the idea of having it already mixed into the gas, that way there's no way you can possibly run dry of oil or at the wrong amount unless the replacement system is used/designed wrong or your injectors aren't working right.

RotaMan99

You would need a resivour no matter which direction you take so you still have the possibility of running dry, thats if you never check the fluid level. Do you check your oil?

The injectors are almost impossible to fail. I have seen the check valves fail in them may times but that does not stop them from allowing oil to flow into the valve and be picked up by the extremly high air velocity inside the injector. If the check valve fails, the only time oil may not actually flow through them is in the extremly shot period of time the combustion chamber is entering the compression cycle.

The oil injectors on the engine put the oil directly on the apex seals. The injectors on the LIM suspend the oil in the intake stream to lubricate all other seals.

I don't see a problem with the OMP system. Saying that, I know this will turn into another OMP debate.

SpeedOfLife

iTrader: (16)

The important goals to me are these:
A) Premix at an appropriate ratio (100:1) (premixing also implies I'm not using the nasty, dirty-burning motor oil).
B) Low mess, low fuss.
C) I'm alerted to fill by the oil light/buzzer or some other less annoying device.
D) Something I don't have to fill too often, for the fact that it can be messy and troublesome to carry oil in your car.

And yes, I check my oil fairly frequently. I try to do it every fill up, however if I could do this I should also be permitted to pay less attention to the oil level if I'm not consuming it in the combustion chambers all the time. A friend of mine who premixed his FC (now sold) said that his oil level would actually rise a little after several tanks of gas.

I don't have a problem with a reservoir, I plan on that being a key component and it doesn't bother me at all.

88rxn/a

iTrader: (6)

ok, so does anyone have this installed?? id like to see install pics along with comments..i wouldnt mind putting my lines (wold be new ones) along with the injectors back in if this worked well....

RotaMan99

If you can find a resivour that holds about 1.5 - 2 qts of fluid, I don't see a reason to worry. You will fill your fuel tank more often the you would have to fill the resivour. A lot of gas stations usually carry 2 stroke but I would stick to a good quality 2 stroke with a high flash point that either carries ashless or low ash lables.

The level sensor you will have to rig up your self, there are devices out there you can buy that you would be able to incorporate into any resivour you choose and wire it up to the oil low level sender harness.

This happend to me too but not with my old premixed engine, only with my used/rebuilt engine. I believed it to be coolent from the looks and smell of the oil. After a few thousand miles, it stop getting contaminated from what I could see.

But really, using the adaptor plate linked above with an appropiate resi of your choice, you would only hav eto top it off every few gas fill ups if you find one that holds more than 1qt of fluid. Thats pretty good to me. Using a system that works extremly well when maintained and injects the correct amount of fluid for your DD.

Ask TitaniumTT, I believe he has one installed on his engine. Im not sure though.

Black91n/a

RotaMan99: You say the stock OMP lubes the apex seals, well not exactly, it lubes the middle of the apex seals, premixing will lube everything more evenly, that's more the reason why people use it.

SpeedOfLife: Seriously, just premix, doing anything else will get pretty complicated and it will need some sort of pump and control system to properly mix the oil into the gas and the time you save at the gas station each time will be wasted and then some with designing, building and installing said system and it probably would still require your input on how much to add when.

HAILERS

SeriouslY speaking, that's not right. The oil injector feed hole is in the Intake stroke (word stroke seems a little wrong on a rotary) area of the rotor *chamber*. There is a vacuum created during the intake stroke. The suction is towards the rotor chamber. The oil from the nozzle is sucked into the chamber and is atomized as that happens. Pay little to NO attention to the duffuses who say the apex seal wipes the oil off the hole and that the oil Drips into the rotor chamber. That is what is called bullshit with a capital B.S.

And I didn't even mention the other two OMP nozzles in the intake manifold. Consider those also.

TitaniumTT

Reasons not to listen to Rotaman and just take what Hailers is saying as fact - https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/why-do-people-mess-omp-672571/

Read the whole thing especially the last few pages where Hailers is doing some actual tests.

That being said I've spent alot of time in the marine industry and with 2 stroke O/B's. Lack of oil was rarely a cause of failure unless it was due to water in the oil system. The OMP's are a derivative of pumps that have been in service for almost 30 years.

The Real World solutions piece is a well machined stout piece. I have yet to fire my motor but I am looking forward to using it. I'm rebuilding my tank to house a low level alarm that will be fed into the Motec as an input that will be routed via CAN to the AIM digital dash as the proverbial check engine light. THere are also "sensors" within the electric OMP that the motec can monitor to make sure that it is functioning properly as well.

How many engines have dies becuase of an OMP failure?

TweakGames

iTrader: (3)

I saw this a while back, what do you think.

http://jhbperformance.com/products.php

"We have designed a system that allows the use of the stock oil metering pump (OMP) to inject premium 2 stroke oil into the engine. Good quality 2 stroke oil is designed to burn clean and properly lubricate the internals of the combustion chamber in ways that far exceed conventional motor oils. This system allows the use of synthetic oils in the oil pan since this oil is no longer being injected into the engine. This kit includes an engine oil supply block off place, an oil fitting for the OMP, an oil line and an oil reservoir.

* Oil Metering System Conversion Kit $45 ea
"

Is it pretty much the same idea?

RotaMan99

Actually this does happen , while not actually dripping oil but instead oozing oil, with the oil injectors located on the engine when one of the rotor chambers enter the compression cycle.

So your saying the oil will stay at the center point of the apex seal? I don't think so. Have you ever looked at a rotor housing and looked at the lubrication path from the oil injectors on the engine? The path starts thin and gets as wide as the apex seal. The only time the oil will ooze out of the oil injectors located on the engine is when the chamber ending the intake cylcle is entering the compression cycle. This will cause the check valve in the injector to close and the oil to ooze out instead of being atomized in the high velocity air that was moving through the oil injector when the chamber was in vacuum.

While that is happening, the oil from the oil injectors in the LIM are being atomized by the high velocity air moving through the injector since the next chamber is now in the intake cycle creating a vacuum and soon after the engine oil injectors will be as well doing the same untill that chamber gets into the compression cycle and closes the check valve in the injectors on the engine and only allows the oil to ooze out lubricating the apex seals directly.

Go away. Like I said, I forgot about the gear reduction that takes place with the OMP operation.

Not bashing on hailers, but what he said was BS, actually happends on only one set of the injectors.

TitaniumTT

Go away You have no common or mechanical sense or business giving advice to anyone. Try to wrap your little brain around this concept ok - If you forgot about a gear reduction that occurs in the motor than you would've been over-reving the OMP and generating more flow and pressure than the engine could've. Care to explain that?

Just save some embarrasment and don't even bother responding - fade away from the internet into your unheated barn and torture your cars in private

RotaMan99

What are you talking about? Im talking about the OMP spinning faster then the engine due to it having a smaller gear. In my crappy test, I would only be spinning the OMP MUCH MUCH slower then it really would have been.

Again, twisting my words around.

haha, actually, it is heated.

TitaniumTT

No - just no. I'd really like to see your SAT scores for the English Comp side.

Seriosuly Justin, you've been proven wrong so many times regarding the OMP and it's operation. It's only after you post your BS as fact (again from hailers - with a capital BS) than it gets blatantly disproven, that you go back and figured out why you failed only to try, and fail again. STOP stating your miscalculated opinion as fact and I won't have anything to harp on and your self inflicked embarrasment can end. That's all I'm asking. Stop posting bullshit. Is that too much to ask?

RotaMan99

So you think the OMP spins slower then the engine.....bs

Black91n/a

All I know is that in pictures of rotor housings from engines using the OMP you can see a nice shiny streak down the middle of the housing. This would indicate that the lube is concentrated in the middle. Also, a little oil mixed in with the gas will be much less viscous than plain motor oil or 2 stroke oil by itself and will atomize better, allowing it to better lube all the seals.

TitaniumTT

I never said anything about the RPM's that the OMP spins at becuase I don't care enough for my purposes. All I'm trying to do is get 1 strait answer out of you. So lets try shall we?

Did you ever do any math to calculate how fast in RPM's the drive shaft for the OMP is rotaing? I doubt it

Do you even know the RPM's of your POS cordless drill? Still doubtful.

Did you hookup some type of sensor to determine that the OMP that you were bench testing is spinning at the proper RPM's? I'd bet my car you didn't

Did you test that OMP per the FSM on a functioning car to make sure that it was working properly before you raped it w/a cordless drill? Probably not.

These are the things that people do when they test **** before they post what thier little head deems as fact. All you did was take a drill and spin the OMP and then posted AS FACT that it is a low flow, low pressure pump. Hailers in 2 minutes disproved what you spent "3 years" (or some such ridiculous amout of time that you claimed to have studied the OMP) testing in your little shop of horrors.

Explain to me why anyone who knows about you and the **** you do and post about should take anything you type seriously?

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

There are various marine and other 2-stroke applications with automatic premixing hardware. You could take something from one of them. Note that older rotary cars did this with motor oil, and really it's a step backwards from using the OMP with a seperate reservoir.

I suppose you might get slightly better lubrication from it being more even, but oil consumption is far higher. Personally I'd rather use the Rotary Aviation adapter with fancy 2 stroke oil rather than premixing with cheap 2 stroke (and spending more money on oil to boot). Or, heck, if you discover a system that's cheap enough maybe I'd do both. I'd do full flow to the OMP adapter and reduced flow to the premixing pump. I'd use fancy 2 stroke in the OMP adaptor and cheap 2 stroke in the premixer. This is all hypothetical, since converting to 2 stroke is low on my priorities.

Turbo II Rotor

iTrader: (2)

Pm rotary resurrection he converted his stock omp to pump premix and uses the subzero start tank.

RotaMan99

That is at the beginning when the apex seal picks up any oil on the housing which then gets spread out across the seal before the combustion cycle.

The OMP system allows the oil to atomiz in the intake stream which it would then get spread over everything.