RX drift

no one seems to like the stuff but Idemitsu is printed 1/2oz per gallon.

BLitzed33

Yup, I posted that in my earlier post, 1/2 oz per gallon, stuff looked like cooking oil, lol.

RX drift

Sry, I didn’t see you hade thrown that up there earlier, I was just posting for the info of MT.

-good thing I read this post, I was just about to order a whole case of the Idemitsu pre-mix.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

I had always thought you should run 1 oz per gallon without the omp, and whatever makes you feel good if its still on. Most people tend to say 1 oz per 2 or 3 gallons if its off, though. I agree with aaron on the pre-mix. Anything with tcw-3 rating is perfectly fine. Many people run wal-mart premix with no problems. I typically just get a gallon jug of marine outboard premix and keep it behind the seat next to my coolant.

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

i can honestly say i've been running 1/128 for a while now and have had no problems with the plugs or running conditions and still none after a month of 1/64. the car is a close to stock na pulling 17 in/hg at idle.

have you done any teardowns on engines running 1/320? i'm interested in how the housing chrome and compression seals fared.

edit: found a good FAQ on royal purple's website. they recommend mix ratios based on what the OMP injects.

they recommend:

200:1 to 800:1 with the omp enabled

150:1 to 600:1 with the omp disabled

http://www.royalpurple.com/techa/faqsa.html#re2

Ice_Wolf

From what I read in the archive and from a few other threads, the most popular ratio WITHOUT the OMP is a 100:1 ratio, or 1 oz. per gallon of gas. Some people recommend 170:1 mix because they don't like the smoke, but a 100:1 mix seems to be a safer alternative.

Well, it seems that basically every company that makes regular motor oil also makes 2 cycle oil. Seems like choosing a brand on a 2 cycle oil is basically like choosing a brand for regular motor oil. It all depends on what you were raised on or what you are biased towards or what you wanna spend the money on.

The only real concern that I have about our cars is using synthetic oil and synthetic 2 cycle oil. Mobil 1 states that their synthetic oils have a low ash content, which is good for our cars especially. I know that synthetic oils have extra additives in them to prevent oil breakdown, which would be especially nice for a rotary engine since they're made to be driven hard occasionally. I love the Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil in my turbo Probe, as it always comes out cleanly, and it quieted down my lifters significantly. This is why I am tempted to go with something like that, but in a heavier weight like 15W50. So, is it the synthetic oils that carry the extra zinc content, or is that just the "extended life" oils?

Icemark

actually because of the design of the oil, most synthtics have fewer additives than conventional oils, making them typically cleaner burning and with fewer things to rob power and lubrication.

The exception to that rule is the conventional oil Group 2 base stocks refined to the point that someone can call them a synthetic (cough, Castrol, Cough, Valvoline), and need additive packages (just like conventional oils) to meet the viscosity and shear ranges.

But as an example, Mobil1 10W30 (a good moderate temp year round weight) has no additive package to get the viscosity range.

Most all "extended life" oils (regardless of synthetic or conventional) just add extra zinc as a solution. Of course that zinc only protects when the oil has failed anyway... so there is little point.

Some "extended life" oils also add additional polymers that supposedly last longer, but then you have the issues of those polymers burning clean in high reving 4 stroke, or two stroke, or Rotary applications.

As I (and a few other Oil guys) have mentioned before. The only real test for oil is sending off samples evey 1000 miles and seeing how it breaks down in your particular application.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

I run Idemitsu synthetic motor oil and premix in my N/A. I may switch to Royal Purple. Does it matter? Not very much. Dino oil works fine. So why do I spend the money? I get part of the money back, a couple HP, and better protection of course. Fuel dilution only happens in turbos. Maybe b/c the pressure is higher, I dunno. Always change the oil in turbos on time. N/A's with synthetics should be able to have longer oil drain intervals, which offsets part of the cost. After 3,000 miles a synthetic oil has roughly the properties of brand new dino oil, so why change it? The synthetics listed in the FAQ burn clean and won't shrink your seals. Plus you get a couple HP and half an mpg, which offsets the cost too. So you save $50 in gas over 1-2 oil changes and you don't have to do them as often. Not bad. 'course you spend up to $45 on the oil change and $15-$30 on the refill oil (unless your OMP is disabled).

iceblue

Umm yea that would be incorrect.

Fuel dilution? That happens in all gas loving motors.
Do you know why you change the oil? Obviously not. Same propertys as dino? That is kinda bogus and still has nothing to do with why you change your oil.

Icemark

There are so many things wrong with that, I don't know where to start...

#1 Fuel dilution does not only happen in turbos. Common on non turbos that have been flooded or are starting to see side seal leakage.

#2 (and this one has been covered countless times) The reason to change the oil between 3000- and 5000 miles is not for how the oil is broken down. Even most conventional oils are perfectly fine at 5000 miles as far as viscosity and shear protection (and I recommend 5000 mile oil changes myself for non turbo 13B motors). But the real reason to change the oil is because of the build up of acids, metal and carbon contaimination. The acids, metal and carbon build up that is not filtered out becomes a liquied sand paper. Older motors with lower compression will have this happen much quicker than newer motors with fresh seals, accellerating the seal failure. Now many synthetics claim acid neutralizing compounds, but again they only work for a limited time (as proven by aftermarket testing of used oil samples).

Now if you had an ultra efficent oil filter that removed the acids and other ultra small particles (and the Mazda filter is good, probably the best, but not that good in the overall demands needed for extended drain intervals) well, with an filter capable of taking out those blowby and combustion by products then you might be able to have extended drain intervals.

Amsoil, claims increased service life for their synthetics to one year oil changes as long as you use their oil filter and don't have the following concerns:

Not too many of our cars for people that post here fit into that catagory of missing all those concerns, now do they.

There are still vehicles that need 3K oil changes, but it's not because the oil goes bad after 3K miles. One example is the Saturn S series. These vehicles have a timing chain system that is very sensitive to clean oil because oil pressure is used as hydraulic fluid to ratchet up the timing chain tensioner. If varnish forms in the timing chain tensioner bore then this system can fail and the chain will become loose and eventually break. Dealers have gone as far as tearing out the normal service schedule (6000 miles) and leaving only the severe service schedule.

The only real way to determine whether oil is truly in need of changing is to have an oil analysis performed. Since most people don't want to bother with this, it's acceptable to err heavily on the safe side and simply follow the manufacturer's recommended change interval for severe service. There are still a few new cars that specify 3K intervals for severe service, but not many. If you look at countries other than the U.S., the oil recommended change interval is much higher than even the normal interval specified by vehicle manufacturers in the U.S. However Mazda does recommend severe service intervals to be considered on our FCs.

#3 You claim better protection... better protection of what? what are you claiming that no synthetic oil claims (now they all claim excellent protection- but none claim better protection--- because there is nothing that they are comparing it too).

In fact, this is what all synthetics claim
Now wait... lets look what the commonly used Castrol says about their GTX oil:
So which one is better... they both are designed for the same thing, yet not one claims a better protection against one or another. In fact if you follow the standards, the Castrol is actually a better oil because is meets the Ford ESE-M@2C153F and G standards.

And you do not save gas at all using synthetic oils. This has long been proven, unless you can keep from using the 2 extra peak horses that some synthetics provide. But of course no synthtic oil manufacture claims increased gas mileage (although Redline does claim increased efficency).

And finally, if you have a cat converter still on your car:

Never use a non-API certified synthetic oil (there are many of these on the market). The problem with the non-API certified synthetics is that they contain too much phosphorus (in the form of the additive ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates). The API has limited the amount of phosphorus because phosphorus shortens the life of the catalytic converter. These oils are fine for snowmobiles, motorcycles, and older cars that don't have a catalytic converter, and the extra ZDDP does provide additional wear protection.

Unfortunately, the marketers of some the non-certified oils do not explicitly and honestly state the reason for the lack of API certification. You can check the status of API certification on the API web site. Be certain to go not just by the manufacturer name but by the actual product as well. This is because a manufacturer will sometimes have both certified and non-certified products. Suffice it to say that Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Castrol, & Havoline all make synthetic oils that are API certified and that can be purchased at auto parts stores and other retail outlets. Amsoil has one product line, XL-7500 that is API certified, but it's other lines contain too much ZDDP to be certified and should not be used in vehicles with catalytic converters.

Last I checked Idemitsu Rotary was not API certifed (and made by Gema Oil [Turkey] made to Idemitsu specs).

iceblue

Man you took all the fun out of it :-P

Evrytime this comes up same old same old 5 people post good information 10more that know dont post and 50 people with info you cant fathem how they ever heard in the first place post.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Group I-II are both conventionals. Valvoline, etc are Group III oils as their base stock has undergone hydrocracking and reformulation. Hydrocracking is not a natural process as molecules are being broken down in an unnatural way into different compounds through the use of a hydrogen as a catalyst (as well as high temeprature and pressure) and then again reformulated into the compounds they want leaving, impurities out. The final product may be a naturally occuring substance but the process through which is was made was not and this is what makes a synthetic what it is. The term synthetic is misleading. Group IV and V base stocks also undergo hydrocracking but typically starting with a different base material. Fortunately through a little help from chemistry we can take molecules from different compounds, break them down and put them back together the way we want them to get the final product. As the end result goal of all Group III-V oils is the same, just starting out with a different compound, they can each be considered equal in terms of quality. None of them were reached through simple distillation so technically they are all synthetics, even the Group III. To say that they are not synthetics only because they are "more refined" is inaccurate. All synthetics are "more refined". More refined is a good thing in every way. Every synthetic started out as something natural and most of them started out as a product that was a result of a level of distillation of crude oil. The process is what determines whether or not it is a synthetic.

Every oil has an additive package. That's what makes a motor oil a motor oil. Without the additive package, you don't have motor oil. All of them have different additive packages to get the desired viscosity as all motor oils of the same type share the same base stock. Everything that is not the base stock is an additive. This includes the detergents. The base stock and the additive packages are each important for their own reasons.

There is so much to oils that is just too hard to describe on a forum.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Synthetics have less impurities (like varnish - yes, clearcoat!) and breakdown less easily. They also require less additives to get the right properties, leaving more room for detergents. So impurities build up slower (miles not months). They also tend to have higher TBN numbers (acid resistance additives), usually 50% higher. So they can stay in longer (months not miles). And I do use a better oil filter with synthetics. Mobil 1 and AMS filters are the best I've read about. AMS oil will not guarantee extended oil changes on dino oil plus their oil filter, nor their oil plus a regular filter. You need both. AMS oil guarantees 25,000 mile or 1 year oil changes, or up to triple your recommended oil drain interval (whichever is lower). But AMS oil's TBN number is triple that of typical dino oil.

It is true that you can run good dino oil to 5000 miles, though. And yes, if you flood you need to change your oil regardless of everything else. My engine only has 110k miles and seems to be in excellent shape, so I'm not worried about fuel seal leaks.

I was aware of the problem with non-API certified synthetics and don't mind replacing my cat early. It will be a great excuse to get a performance cat. Right now my cat is in great shape. All oils contain phosphorous, the non-certified synthetics just contain more. It won't blow your cat right away. New cats are supposed to last 150,000 miles. API makes sure the oil doesn't ruin that. Not a problem in piston engines, btw, since synthetics get burnt less than dino oils in those engines.

For a good dino oil everyone seems to recommend Castrol GTX, I'd say with good reason.

And yet it matters so little. I was worried because of these forums and read seemingly hundreds of pages of very detailed info from various sources. I now use synthetic because of this, but I also know good dino oil will still do a wonderful job. And now I can tell you why 10w40 isn't quite as good as other weights. So sad.

Icemark

Thanks for clearing that up, and correcting my answer.

Yes, however some synthetics do not have an additive package for Viscosity (I guess I was not clear on that) and reach the range off of formulations instead. Of course they all still add additives for acid reduction, and soot suspension for just a few other examples. Its just viscosity is met with the claim of no additional additives to get the viscosity range in the case of some synthetic oils.

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

1 ounce per gallon is actually 128:1.

100:1 ratio is 1 ounce per ~.78 gallons... about 9 ounces for every 7 gallons.

anyways, i'm going to stick with 128:1 until it gives me trouble, which i doubt it will.

fwiw i use castrol GTX 10w-30 all year and use the cheapest brand name tcw3 2-cycle oil i can find. that usually ends up being castrol super outboard, but i was just given a huge stash of quicksilver tcw3 for free.

deadRX7Conv

Idemitsu rotary 2-stroke claims that it exceeds JASO FC requirements. Thats good enough if you plan on running it. But, wallyworld has several brands of TCW3 for <$10 per gallon.

Not that I agree with wikipedia, but it is a good starting point for research
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubricant (no mention of the EOP, PIO, GTL.... or other newer lubes)
And, some good info available here:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/
http://noria.com/resources.asp
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi (watch out for the spon$ers)

Ice_Wolf

Well, it basically looks like you use whatever oil you want at your own disgression. Personally, I'm gonna give the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W50 oil a try, along with their Mobil 1 Racing 2T 2-cycle oil a try and see how it goes. I know that Mobil 1 is a very good company, and they've proven it many times over to me. And Alexdimen, thanks for that correction. I plan on doing the 128:1, or 1 oz. per gallon mix. Lots of good information in this thread, and it has been fun reading it all.

RETed

Wow, that made my head hurt...
I'd figure it'll be interesting for chemical engineers?

My data point...
We ran different ratios on the race track with a 13B NA.
With strictly only Valvoline Multi-Use pre-mix, when we ran the ratios down to 50:1 and lower, the exhaust started to smoke significantly.
The "soot" as also very noticable on the spark plugs.
Running it above 70:1 cleared up the smoke and kept the plugs clean - all BUR9EQ's.
We run our race ratios right around 70:1 after that.


-Ted

Ice_Wolf

Thanks for that information Ted. I might try the 70:1 ratio once I get the car back on the track. Normal driving I'll stick with the 128:1 though. Btw, what mix would the 70:1 give you? Something like 1.75 oz. per gallon?

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

You should learn to do your own math, but as long as I'm here...
1 gallon = 128 ounces
128 / 70 = 1.83 ounces = 1-13/16 ounces
1.75 ounces per gallon = 1:128/1.75 = 1:73. Probably close enough.
2 ounces per gallon = 2:128 = 1:64. Probably close enough.

RETed

Yeah, we were running slightly under 2 oz. per gallon.
We were eyeballing most if it, but we were adding the premix into 5 gallon gas containers.
It was a hair under 10 oz. per 5 gallon gas container.
Thanx for the math break-down ericgrau!


-Ted

Ice_Wolf

Alright, so I've been looking for places where I can find my motor oil and pre-mix oil. I plan on using the Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15W50 oil and Mobil 1 Racing 2T 2 cycle oil. Anyone know where I can buy these products? I looked around and couldn't find where I could order them online, or any store that carried them. Also, another quick question. Anyone know where I could purchase a magnetic oil drain plug? Also, do you guys flush your oil system with clean oil, then drain it and put your actual oil in? Thanks for the help!

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

www.rx7.com has a re-usable magnetic oil filter sleeve. Holds metal particles inside your oil filter. Pep Boys should have Mobil 1. Extended Performance only helps if you plan on changing your oil less often (which is a perfectly fine idea). It probably just has more acid-neutralizing stuff.

15W50 has a really wide temperature range. Are you planning trips from Death Valley to snowy mountains? It takes more viscosity additives to pull off that range, leaving less room for oil. The higher viscosity ("W50") also means more friction. Mineral 10w30 is good from well below zero to +80F. 20w50 is good from below freezing to as hot as you want. Synthetic 10w30 will have an even wider temperature range.

First number means cold temp viscosity. The lower the better it is for starting your car in cold weather. The second number means running viscosity, after you warm up your car. High viscosity means thick (like honey), low viscosity means thin (like water). Low viscosity has less friction and squeezes through tight spaces easier but high viscosity clings to surfaces better. Low viscosity after warm-up is best for performance. High viscosity after warm-up is best for worn-out engines because it leaks slower.

deadRX7Conv

Extended oil changes are NOT a perfectly fine idea with ANY oil in a rotary without additional filtration. An EP oil doesn't do a thing for a rotary's fuel dilution. It doesn't do a thing for wear particles.

W50 is not a weight. The '50' is the weight range at 212*F. There are 6 hot weights that ALL motors fall into: 20, 30, 40, 40, 50, 60 defined by SAE. And, the 40 isn't a repeat. It is impossible for any oil to fall into multiple weight ranges.

The 'W' is a cold cranking/pumpability test. This is very important in a boinger. The larger surface area of bores, and the distance of the upper valvetrain from the pump, are issue we don't worry about. In a boinger, if the oil is chilled into 'snot', the multiple pistons won't move in their 'sticky' bores and the engine won't crank. If the oil is like jello, the engine will starve and wear out. There are 6 'W' tests defined by SAE: 0w, 5w, 10w, 20w, and 25w. Any oil that pass a lower cold test also by definition, meets all the higher cold specs. To prevent confusion, only one of the cold specs can be 'labelled'.
SAE allows an oil to be labelled with either: 1 cold #w, or 1 hot #, or 1 of each #w-#. This is why you don't see 0w5w10w30 oils anymore. The oil ignorant consumers were confused!

Since the 'ranges' are pretty broad, foreign SAE equivalents and independent blenders also came out with pseudo weights. You will see some labelled '70' for thicker 60wt oils and 35wt oils that are on the thick side of a 30wt without being a 40wt. And, there are some 7.5w(or 3w) oils that give better pumpability/cranking of the 10w(or 5w) but with an overdose of VII's used by 5w(or 0w). For example, if I mix a quart of 10w30 with a 10w40, I DO NOT GET A 10w35. Its either a 10w30 on the thick side or a 10w40 on the thinside, easily verified by oil analysis. But, for example, an independent can blend a 10w35 marketed as an oil that protects as well as a 40 with losing HP when compared to a 10w30, or as an oil that provides HP without losing protection when compared to a 10w40.

Gear oils are tested at different temps and have their own numbering designations and should never be used as comparisons with motor oils.

Synthetic oils typically use LESS viscosity index improvers for a given 'spread'.
I'd wager that a 15w50 synthetic has less VII's compared to a 20w50 mineral oil. And, that a 5w50 synthetic has similar VII's to a 20w50. HIgher quality basestocks(as you move up the group ladder), require less VII's for any given weight range. It is pretty well known that typical 5w20, 10w30, and 15w40 synthetics use little to no VII's.

Ice_Wolf

That filter sleeve is expensive as ****, but it's pretty cool. There has to be a cheaper route to go than this though. I'm using bar magnets on mine now, so I can't really see how much more a 40 dollar sleeve is going to help.

From what you guys have posted here, going with my 15W50 would be good. The reason I want the higher viscosity oil is because it doesn't break down as fast as a lower viscosity will. The 20W50 Castrol that I was running always came out very clean and held oil pressure extremely well. Even after running it hard, oil pressure stayed up there and it didn't break down.

And yea, I'll be changing the oil every 3k miles like I always do. I know there's no reason to run it over that.

So, nobody else knows where I can buy those two oils I have listed?