TX_RX

Recently, I had most of the engine bay of my RX-7 apart. While doing this, I decided to attach the thermal bypass pellet to my eccentric shaft. The product is the following:

Oil Pellet

I did this swap by following the following instructions:
Reted's how-to

These instructions were clear and straight forward, and I have removed a crank pulley before on a 1992 Nissan 240SX to replace a front oil seal with no problems. I used these instructions except I used the Racing Beat pellet instead of washers and I did NOT use the starter to break the bolt, I used a 2' breaker bar with the clutch engaged and the transmission in 5th gear (uh-oh). Exact same way that I used successfully on that Nissan KA24DE engine.

However, I was doing some reading tonight and I came across some information that suggests that these instructions gloss over a VERY important point specific to the 13B engine. That doing it this way could cripple some key bearings on the ends of the eccentric shaft. The issues are identified in these articles.

Rotary Resurrection

Aaron Cake's website

Mazdatrix

I have to admit, I should have stopped to question things when the instructions said to use the STARTER to break the e-shaft bolt and to use washers instead of the premade pellet!

So far, since I have put the engine compartment back together I have ran it at idle for all of 15-20 minutes, and driven it a grand total of about 40 to 50 feet (my wife needed me to move it to the other side of the garage). So far, last Sunday on September 30th, the engine started up on the first pull of the key and ran well. I heard no undue noise or smells from the engine. On Tuesday October 2nd I moved it in the garage. Again, no strange noises but I smelled what I was certain was overheated clutch. My driveway is a very steep grade, and I was graceless with the clutch that night. On Saturday October 6th I ran the engine at idle for 15 minutes to warm it up and again there was no abnormal noise or smell. The engine started at 3,000RPM as normal, then 1,500 RPM. After warm up instead of going to 750 RPM it hunts between 1,400 and 1,600 RPM. At idle, I found when I had the transmission in neutral and the clutch engaged there is significant bearing noise that disappears when I disengaged. This noise existed when the engine ran last, and a mechanic told me was the pilot bearing.

Tonight when I read about this problem, I immediately went to check if there was any end float. I could not feel any, but the pulley is currently wrapped in belts. The Mazdatrix FAQ states that spec for end float would be 0.0015" to 0.0028" (about 40µm to 70µm for those inclined to the metric system) and I do not have confidence in my ability or anyone's ability to judge that sort of play without precision instruments.

I do not think that the idle problem, clutch smell, and pilot bearing noise have any relevance to this problem, but I want to lay all the cards out on the table. I do take heart that I have not heard any sounds of bearing destruction, but at this point I wonder if I have made my engine into a ticking time bomb. If anyone can help me determine if I have allowed the bearings to slip and what course of action I can take to correct this, I will be enormously grateful.

TX_RX

I almost forgot, all cards on the table and everything. On first start on that Sunday September 30th I did observe significant amounts of blue smoke in the exhaust. That has since gone away and I observe no smoke from my exhaust when I start it.

I did loosen the belts, and I feel no play in the eccentric shaft pulley when tugged by hand. Mazdatrix shows this to be a bad thing, but again I can't judge without the proper instruments. However, it feels totally firm to the touch.

Again, I will be very grateful to anyone who can step up here.

-RotorDemon-

Eccentric Shaft Thermal Bypass Video

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

You have a problem: from your link:

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Wow, I can't believe that Ted's instructions don't warn people about the Torrington bearing! I wonder how many people's engines he's killed with these instructions?! Seems pretty irresponsible.

As others have mentioned, you need to check end float. As long as the engine was not unnecessarily rotated and the eccentric was not pushed/pulled while the hub was off, then you are probably fine. The spacer does not normally move, but it can happen.

You'll need to remove the belts on the front hub to check end float. Push hard on the front pulley to set the eccentric shaft back, zero the gauge, and then pry forward to check float. If it is zero, then you're pulling the front cover.

You need to check it with a gauge. Feeling out the float in the car isn't going to be a good method.

Black Knight RX7 FC3S

iTrader: (7)

You are going to need a dial indicator witha magnetic base. Though....I dont know where you are going to put the magnetic stand on since there is no flat iron spot on the front cover.


I would just bite the bullet and pull the front cover off and check the torrington bearings.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

Guys: He ran the engine for 15-20 min two different times and drove it up the driveway another time. If the bearing is slipped, it is trash. He's gonna have to pull the front cover and replace both torrington bearings at least.

Unless they haven't slipped. The only way he is gonna know for sure is to pull the front cover.

TX_RX: Wedge the clutch pedal in this time before you pull that bolt!

TX_RX

Thank you for all of your replies. I will answer your replies in turn. I apologize in advance for the long post.

RotorDemon,

Thanks for the link, I will be buying that video and viewing it when I have time later in the week.

jackchilds,

Point well taken about no float, but the spec says 40 to 70 micrometers, that is about the width of a human hair (literally!). I am with aaron and black knight on this one that a dial indicator gauge is needed to make this call definitively.

aaron,

I was hoping that you would chime in. I agree with your surprise on Ted's instructions. However, now that I think of it his cockamamie suggestion of using the starter to break the bolt might work since the clutch is disengaged from the engine. All the same, I think I prefer to use tools and my car for the purposes that they were for. I.E. the starter is NOT a breaker bar. I wrote a polite e-mail to Ted requesting clarification but he has not answered yet. I am not daft and I have no intent on raising a stink about this. It's my car, my fault, my responsibility. Still, I felt that I should call this to his attention.

As for your suggestion, I am leaning towards combining your suggestion of an initial measurement with jack's and black knight's suggestion of a direct visual inspection. I just have a hunch that the torrington bearings dropped. No matter what happens, I am going to have to get a dial indicator gauge, so it can't hurt to take a measurement before I take off the pulley and front cover.

Now for my more specific questions that your responses have brought to mind. Jack, you said that I would have ground the bearing up idling at moving it down and up the driveway. I never heard any screaming, grinding, or "midget with a jack hammer" noises that I would associate with a failed bearing. Does anyone know if the failure of this bearing is typically silent? Or is there usually some noise accompanying it disintegrating? If you were a betting man (not going to hold you on this later of course), given the usage that I described what odds would you give me that I damaged something more important like stationary gears and main bearings that might require a full rebuild?

Jack, you also said that I must disengage the clutch before removing this bolt and now that I read the FSM this is clear. This begs the obvious question. I don't have access to an impact gun and instead prefer a good breaker bar for this. In fact, this seems to be the preference of the FSM. On page 1-32 of the FSM Mazda references a "ring gear brake P/N 49 F011 101" This seems to be the ideal tool for this job. Does anyone know where I can find this tool? Or is there some ancient Chinese secret to doing this? Or does everyone just use a good impact gun? Or is this a question that is answered in the 99 cent video from Pineapple?

Overall this incident has made me question if I am in over my head. This is really starting to feel like a never ending cycle. At this point I think I have some hard decisions to make. Do I give up on this car? Do I press on? Maybe I can use this as a chance to sell the N/A (full disclosure on the problem of course, I am honest) and get a turbo engine? Do I fix this engine implementing the plan discussed here? Do I seek help with this engine? I have given thought to having the car towed to Rotary Performance in Garland, TX and hiring them to fix this mess. I have the good fortune to live 4 miles from them. I was intending to drop in and visit them and see if they could give me an informal guess on what it would cost to fix this. I have seen from Mazdatrix that the parts to fix it would be from about $100 to $300 depending on what gears have been ruined.

Right now, I think I am going to just leave the thing alone for awhile and just take a break from it and consider my options. In the next month and a half my daughter is having her 3rd birthday, my cousin is getting married, and I am visiting my family for Thanksgiving. I think I am just going to enjoy the upcoming holidays and make my decision. The car sat for almost 30 months and started up on the first pull of the key. Thank you enclosed and partially climate-controlled garage. I think it can wait another couple months. Please know that your advice is not being ignored. Everything said here so far will be instrumental in me making a good decision and I thank everyone for it. Loosely though I am leaning towards fixing the engine as is.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

I've had the bolt out with the clutch pedal NOT pressed in; I even broke the bolt loose in the same way as the OP: 5th gear and a breaker bar. Nothing bad happened because I did not rotate the pulley or touch the hub itself AT ALL until it had been replaced. If I ever do it again, I'd just use the starter/clutch disengaged trick to be on the safe side, but if you go the other route it's not necessarily going to cause damage.

The quick check since the engine has been run is to drain the oil and go through it with a magnet. If the bearing dropped, you should find pieces of metal.

jackhild59

iTrader: (7)

So you could check the float with a dial indicator,if you can figure out how with the front cover on. You could check the oil with a magnet and you might or might not find shavings. Or you can pull the front cover (yes, it's no fun) to be sure. Good thing you don't have to drive it for a daily.

Prop the clutch pedal in. Use the breaker bar and the starter to bump the bolt loose. Works every time it's tried. I fought the concept too, but my air wrench couldn't break the bolt free with the clutch pressed in.

TX_RX

I have made my decision. I will verify that the bearing have or have not drop through direct visual inspection. I will first make float measurements to see what I am getting into, and I will make a thorough inspection of the oil pan. I will not give up, but I am not ready to go turbo yet.

Before I do this though, I think it would be in my interest to buy the pineapple racing video referenced and the Mazdatrix rebuild video and review them. I will also review the FSM again, and the Haynes manual. Any further questions I have now should be solved in those videos. Though before everything else, a good cleaning of my garage is in order!

Again, I thank everyone for their advice.

DaBrkddy

Personally, I would never remove the front hub bolt on my engine unless I had full intentions of taking the front cover off.

I would always be worried about something going wrong between removal/installation, unless I was starting over from square one with the front cover off. To me it's a big risk unless you make absolutely sure you don't move the hub at all.

TX_RX

Yeah, I definitely know that now. It was not an issue on that Nissan, but this is a stark reminder of how things can be different on a rotary and that I need to study.

I did get an informal discussion with rotary performance and an idea of what it would take for them to fix this for me. I am going to sit down and watch the videos and read all the books I can. If I decide it's over my head, I will swallow my pride and get help.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

My engine rebuild video shows the front assembly and the process of checking end play:


Same procedure in the car but obviously, you are horizontal and the front cover is in place.

Oh, one thing I forgot. If the bearing has indeed dropped, the eccentric pulley will be approximately 1/8" forward out of line with the water pump and rest of the accessory pulleys.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

for anyone interested in doing the thermal pellet bypass, it's NOT worth messing with unless you have the engine apart on the bench or are doing other things like a front main seal as well.

they rarely fail like many people claim they do, yes they do starve the rotors of internal oil cooling for several minutes but i have never seen it be a detriment to the engine.

i have NEVER seen one fail. those who claim they have, probably misdiagnosed something else or caused it to fail by disassembling it to clean it and the o-ring seal got chunked during reassembly. i don't put the OE pellet in solvent, i don't take it apart, i literally just wipe it off and reinstall it after everything else is done.

no i do not like the idea of the pellet, but i wouldn't lose any sleep over it being in there.



i have done a few this way, the bearing issue is overly inflated. you have to be aggressive with the e-shaft and hub to drop the bearing, i have never even run into the issue so i can't even honestly tell you what to expect aside from likely crunching noises when you tighten the main bolt and a very stiff engine rotation.. it is inflated because it is a serious issue if you do **** it up, and can kill the engine if you run it long enough.

i see people also chunk up pilot bearings.. how many have i killed? 0. just don't think that being a gorilla will win, straight and smooth is how things are disassembled and reassembled.

bumpstart

i take it mr karack is going to do these front stat rebuilds free?
is he also calling the people at RB, pineapple, atkins, and the writers of various articles concerning the pellet idiots?
does he build more engines than these guys.. or is his head just in the sand ?

i have had pellets fail
and i dont like it when someone infers im an idiot just cause they havent seen one
im clearly not the only one that has seen a fail
.. that why there is so many write ups on how to get around it
.. so im sure im not the only one that has seen 10 psi as hot oil idle pressure and had to fix it

i literally have a small bucket of examples out the back.. i would suspect that at least 1/3 of them are cactus
.. i dont have time to lay them all out on the bench , boil some water and prove so

that would be because today im still building another engine,, that had unexplained bearing fail
...and it definately wont be getting the front pellet back as stock .. i dont feel like building it twice


.. when youve had to rebuild several engines cause the front stat gear has failed and the stupid little pin on the thermal bypass pellet is stuck in
.. then you will understand my frustration when you get someone.. who supposedly builds lots of engines says the opposite

if you are building.. CHANGE IT OUT or stack mod it
.. if your car is stock.. leave it be till you have a reason to change it or when the motor is next out

if doing it in the car-- dont .. cause you will have all this maybe grief this OP is coping .. i bet he wished now he took longer and took the engine out and did it engine vertical

however.. unless the engine was bumped or moved then there is likely no issue.. the bearing only traps behind the bearing spacer if its allowed to slip forwards a bit
if you have it wrong you will have no bump and wiggle at all.. and it will make hot smells and soon collapse.. and then you will have lots of float,, and shrapnel in the sump
if you get it straight away,, its just an oil change and replace the crush float parts,,,if you drive it till it drops the bearing metal could damage other bearings and potentially the stack or front sat weld to the e shaft
( and these motors are very hard to strip )

my advice is take off the belts..to put a mag and dial block on the front pulley ,, and use a lever through the clutch inspection plate to pry the flywheel forwards .. poofteenth ( [ 0.04 -0.09 mm ] is enough ( you can also pry behind the front pulley )

if you see this.. stop now.. your OK