MountainTurbo

So I'm still having problems getting my car to run, so I'm going down the list of possible culprits.

AFM resistances check out as per FSM, as did the CAS resistances.

The car will start, rev, then die. We tried pull starting it, but no go.

So, I was wondering if there's any way that the timing could be off with the CAS stabbed correctly. The front pulley was put on correctly (the only way it would go, and no the holes weren't even slightly elongated), and the CAS has been stabbed with the yellow timing mark lined up with the pin, and the CAS marks lined up. When I stabbed the CAS, I had to rotate almost completely in one direction to keep the marks on the CAS lined up once it was seated. Multiple re-stab attempts resulted in the same thing. This was verified by marking inside the CAS with the top off to ensure the marks stayed aligned.

Any ideas? If someone gives me the answer to get this thing started, I'll mail them a cookie! Or heck, maybe even a dollar!

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the CAS should spin slightly when going in, align up the marks and center the CAS and drop it in with the pin in the center of the adjustment slot, timing should be close to right on at that point usually slightly counterclockwise is perfect.

88IntegraLS

If you rebuilt this engine recently, the Cas drive gear can go on both ways and the gear alignment will not be the same. I've had it on both ways and it changes the Cas alignment on the front cover, but I've also stabbed the Cas many many times incorrectly, even though the centerpunch on the pinion gear lined up with the mark on the Cas.

Best way I've found to stab a Cas is take off the top cover and watch the trigger wheel.

MountainTurbo

That's what I did with the CAS is take the cover off and made sure it stayed aligned.

Sooooo... if the CAS drive gear is on backwards per chance, is there anything I can do without taking the stupid front cover off and switching it? I think we might have put the drive gear on backwards due to some confusion from the video and FSM. I didn't think we put it on backwards, but you've put a doubt in my mind and I can't find anything else currently that might be wrong... :S

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

there is no way of knowing without pulling it apart if the gear is on incorrectly but you could try turning the CAS full one way or the other and see if it helps get the car started.

the CAS gear should turn as it is installed though, which is where i think the problem lies. are you installing the CAS keeping the mark originally lined up or are you moving it to the center of the adjustment slot after installed?

88IntegraLS

There is nothing wrong with using a drive gear backwards, I think mine is in backwards right now. You just have to move the Cas a little to get the timing where you want.

If you really want to know if your timing is wrong and don't have access to a timing light, you can unbolt the Cas, turn it all the way to one end of its adjustment range, then lift it up and twist it over to the opposite end of the range, the place it back down so the gears mesh. This will effectively move the gear mesh alignment by one tooth. I've had to do this a lot lately when assembling my motor. If by change you get it waaaaaay too advanced, it will make a mild knock when you try to open the throttle. It's an ugly sound.

MountainTurbo

The problem is I can't check timing cause the car won't run lol.

It will start, and sometimes I can get it to rev, but it pretty much dies instantly.

I took the CAS cap off, lined up the marks on the outside, then marked where everything was on the inside.

Then, after inserting the CAS had turned it a little, I realigned the interior to where I knew it would correspond to the correct alignment of the marks outside.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

with that way it is installed on the correct gear teeth but it isn't lined up properly, spin the CAS clockwise so the stud is near the middle of the slot, slightly further than the middle.

HAILERS

It sounds like you've got the timing right, having removed the top cover and watched the internals.

So if it will start but then die right off, it sounds like a fuel problem more than anything. You are getting fuel or it would not fire up but you have a lack of continuous fuel MAYBE.

So MAYBE might be: The fuel pump runs in three conditions.(A) When the key is held to START the pump runs as long as the key is held to START. (B) When the key is in ON and the engine actually is running and pulling the vane in the AFM back a touch making a circuit. (C) When the fuel pump check connector is jumpered with a piece of wire and the key is to ON or better.

Try jumpering the fule pump check connector near the right front strut tower. It is yellow in color. Two sockets only. Maybe a black boot around the yellow connector. Don't jumper anything that looks different than that. With the key to ON the pump should be heard to run. Start the car and if it runs then the fuel pump circuit in the afm is not *made*. Easily fixed if so.

Or another idea is the easy one. If the afm's plug is off the car will start as you described and die. Put plug back on. I doubt this is the case from what you wrote about checking the afm.

Possibly the fuel lines are not connected right at the engine? Pressure line from the filter goes to the front inlet pipe. The rear pipe is return to the tank. How sure are you that the fuel rails are connected right??? Is this a JDM engine? It's fuel rails usually connect up different than USA engines.

Another possibility: a large air leak. Not a puny small vacuum tube but say the brake booster line is off?????

If you buy a can of starter fluid and spray from one to two seconds into the air filter (max one to two), does the engine start each and everytime for a moment? If it does, then it's a fuel delivery problem for sure and not ignition.

I've run out of ideas.

MountainTurbo

A lot of good ideas there, but unfortunately for me, I think I've exhausted them.

The fuel pump definately kicks on with the AFM door open. I tried jumpering the connection, problem was exactly the same.

Fuel lines have been checked and double checked, definately pressurized, and there's a lot of fuel going into the car, as most of it is unfortunately coming out the back when the car doesn't start (no cats).

Vacuum leaks have been checked and double checked, but to no avail. I did get really excited when we found a large nipple that wasn't capped under the oil filler tube, but still no change after it was capped.

That's why I'm starting to wonder if it's a timing issue, although usually timing issues will make the car not start, but still run if pull started (albeit poorly).


I'm at the end of my rope, I miss this car so much I'm going crazy.


Oh, here's a thought. I am using FD rotor housings, and I know the timing on them is a little different, but would that cause an issue?

HAILERS

How about this. It's a rebuild. Fresh rebuild. So MAYBE too much fuel is the problem.

One of two tacks to take. One: make a fuel cut switch. Or two: Work with someone with you. Find the fuel pumps connector under the carpet behind the left rear strut tower. Pull that plug apart. Buy a can of starter fluid. While you sit in the car, have your friend spray for one to two seconds into the air filter or the air filters snorkel before the filter box. Start the engine. It should go varoom for just a moment. Now have you friend repeat the spray job but this time have him poised to reconnect the fuel pump plug as you start the engine. When the engine starts to go varoom, he will immediatley reconnect the fuel pumps plug and the car will remain running as long as you play with the pedal.

Try that. The fuel cut switch will just confuse things right now. Do that later after the engine is up and running.

I DIS the idea of pulling EGI COMP fuses and such when trying to start a rebuild. Pulling the fuel pump plug and spraying starter fluid has a basic advantage. First no more fuel goes in the engine like the pulling of the fuses, but this way you have IGNITION and the starter fluid should light off the excess fuel in the chamber and clean the chamber out. Pulling the EGI COMP does not do that. A disadvantage.

MountainTurbo

Yah, I actually have a fuel cut switch already, so I guess I could just try that with the switch. I just don't get it, it starts pretty quick, especially if I give it a little throttle.I can get it to rev up to about 3K right after it starts, then it dies. If I pump the gas pedal repeatedly sometimes it will stay "running" for a minute (essentially sputtering, almost dying at around 500 rpm).

I'm so frustrated!

HAILERS

Well, the fuel cut switch is better than the remove the fuel pump plug idea.

So you put the switch to OFF and crank the engine .....it starts and while it starts up you switch to ON. The engine keeps sorta running if you play with the pedal but won't keep running and it runs crummy.

Hard to say what the problem is. Wild shot: I've seen people on this forum get their fuel injectors in crooked and there will be a big leak at the injector grommet causing a bad idle/running. You should use new, soft injector grommets.

Or .....is there the SLIGHTEST chance the sparkplug wires are on on right? Leads to the bottom plugs and trails to the top. Trails have to be on the right plug. Leads on the bottom don't matter since they fire at the same time. Naw, you'd a caught that.

Are you using stock fuel injectors? No SAFC thing involved, right? Stock car? Right?

There is a small possibility the lead plugs are dead. Buy two brand new LEAD plugs and try again. I would not waste a cent on new trail plugs. They are not a player.

Do you KNOW that the LEAD plugs have fire????? A engine with just trail plugs firing runs real crummy. REal, real crummy.

HAILERS

Take a look at the turbo inlet duct AT the turbo connection. Hold it in your hand. Does it have a CRACK at the clamping area? Air leak.

Is the brake booster line connected at the rear of the uppper intake manifold? Big air leak there if so.

MountainTurbo

I appreciate your input hailers, definately helps to have another mind going over this stuff.

Injectors are stock 550cc, just got back from cleaning at cruzinperformance complete with new grommets, o-rings, etc.

I don't even have to use the fuel cut switch to get it to start, I can usually just start it, sometimes with a little playing with the gas pedal required.

I do have an SAFC, but I've basically zeroed it out so it's not doing anything. I also tried starting the car with the SAFC basically disconnected (i.e. the AFM wire connected straight through like it would be stock instead of spliced into the SAFC).

The car is a rebuild that was just installed. It's been streetported, has NA rotors (I'm crazy, I know It won't see a whole lot of boost, and I need the low-end for autox), FD housings (mine had 180K miles on them), and all emmissions and "extras" (AC, BAC, etc. with the exception of powersteering) removed. Turbo is an S5 turbo and manifold, RP exhaust, a FCD, TID mod, Bonez cone filter.

Brake booster line is on, no noticable cracks in hose at turbo connection (hose is not stock, it's newer silicon or what have you).

Did check the injectors to make sure they were straight last time I had the UIM off to check for a good ECU ground:S

I haven't double checked the plugwires, but I'll go do that now and verify they are correct. 99.9% sure they are though, as I probably would have noticed when I was checking them for spark.

One thing you mention though, when I checked for spark I used an old plug and left the new ones in the engine, I guess they could be fouled. You think that could make the car start and give me 1 rev before it dies? (it honestly sounds pretty good when it revs too, breaks my heart when it then proceeds to die!)


Again, thank you for your input! I miss this car so freaking much!

Oh, and last question, do you think a backwards CAS drive gear could do something like this? My friend is 99% sure he installed it with the chamfer down, but there was some disagreement as to which side had the larger chamfer the video referred to

HAILERS

IF it sounds pretty good when it rev's to three thousand.......I guess the plugs are probably not the problem.

Later, much later today I'll post a picture of a cas. This cas was scanned on a ....scanner and is not in the car, but the top cover is off and shows just where the internals are when the timing marks are spot on at the pulley and the cas is stabbed and locked down. I can remove the cas, spin the gears, align the pulley marks with the fixed pointer and stab that cas and rotate its body to match what is in the picture and the timing will always be within five degrees or less when I go to look at it with a timing light.

I can't figure why your car won't keep running other than a large air leak....but you've looked. I wouldn't buy new plugs after I read what you just wrote. It's something else. Got me.

nuyz125

hey,
not trying to hijack your thread or anything, but I am having this exact same problem..I will start my car, it will rev to 3000, and then pretty much go right back down and stall..If I try to keep it running, it will do so, but run like total ****..backfiring and sputtering. Heres the main difference between me and you though, my car HAD been running perfectly for 3 weeks after a successful engine transplant..and my timing was set correctly..so I am thinking it is something other than timing, since it decided to happen to my car randomly. I am going to try many of the things people have told you to check..but it definitely sounds like exactly the same symptoms..
good luck..I hope you find your problem!

HAILERS

I'm attaching a jpg of the cas but I don't think that's your problem. Anyway, when the cas is bolted down it should look like this picture. Note how the small tooth is opposite the center of the coil device? That's about right. Actually if you take your cas in hand and align the bottom gear with the dot and then look at the top of the cas it will look like this picute that's attached. Just maybe a tooth different.

But when the cas is bolted down it should look like the picture or real close to it.

You might make sure the three ECU plugs are all on fully. When playing with my ECU sometimes I'll forget to put the middle plug back on. The car will start for a moment and die. Gotta put the middle plug back on.

If you changed the emissions harness, make sure all three yellow plugs got installed. The one to the ECU and the two others up high in the foot well.

tawd

here are a couple longshots...

are you sure you got the injector wiring plugs seated firmly? Maybe they are losing
connection with the vibration of the engine starting.

OR, Maybe your brake booster is shot and is losing vacuum. Take the hose
off the brake booster and plug the vacuum line with something and try to start
it...

As far as the CAS... I had a buddy that had a wierd problem in is 88 rx7... His car would ONLY run correctly with the CAS cover OFF of the CAS. Somehow, the internals were shorting out against the cover. Wierd huh?

Besides those 3 problems i have no idea what could be wrong with your car... good luck with it!

AcidShock

iTrader: (49)

You know this is a longshot and I would not even suggest it but you said it was a rebuild you just dropped in. Go inside the passenger side, pull up the carpet, and make absolutely sure all of the connectors to engine computer are tight and pushed all the way in. There is one in particular that is difficult to get to up near the firewall and to the side that has a tendancy to not go in all the way even though it appears it is.

johnnyg

When I re-installed an UIM once, I foolishly caught a mounting tab for the vacuum lines underneath (in-between the intake manifold and UIM), leaving a nice big, but none too obvious, vacuum leak. When I tried to start the car up afterwards, it behaved much the same as your description. So, my money is on a vacuum leak.

MountainTurbo

Thanks for all the replies guys. All the ECU harness connections have been checked and double checked.

Today I pulled out the leading plugs, and they looked really good with the exception of some black marks that were easily removed by my finger. They were a little wet, but nothing out of the ordinary for a fresh rebuild that I could see.


When I line up the dot on my CAS, it looks exactly like your .jpg only 1 tooth off.

Just to double check and make sure (as much as possible) it wasn't a timing issue, I had my buddy rotate the CAS all the way one direction, then back all the way the other, not much of a change, although it was harder to start when it was all the way clockwise and didn't sound as good for the 1 rev I get out of it. So, he pulled the CAS out completely, turned it and re-seated it off from where it should be, but the problem pretty much stayed the same, car would start, maybe rev once, then die. I did find a place where the rev sounded the best though lol.

Again thanks for the help guys, if you think of anything else please let me know, I'm about at my wits end!

RETed

Actually, that picture is WRONG.
I dunno what the pic is from, but that's not what the CAS looks like when it's properly index for initial install.

What I look for is that the blade of the top / home teeth - one will end up on the very edge of the "left" mag sensor.
So if you rotate that CAS about 10 degrees counter-clockwise, that's the proper position.


-Ted

MountainTurbo

Ok, that makes me feel better, cause mine is aligned like you described.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

try double checking your gounds if you haven't.

i had a similar issue with my rebuild after i got it installed, oddly the ECU was not sending a reference voltage to the sensors. after playing with the grounds for a while the problem disappeared.