Please help, no spark or fuel
10-19-08, 07:08 PM
#1
Please help, no spark or fuel
hello, let me start off by telling you what this is. this is and 87na to 87 jdm TII swap using a s4 na harness. everything is stock and i am using an rtek 1.7 ecu. the motor does crank over but no fuel or spark.
so when i went to start the car the fuel pump was getting no power what so ever. when the key was in the on position and in start nothing. i was reading in another post about opening the afm and when i do the fuel pump works, i can hear the pump and the injectors. so i believe i have primed the system(i can feel fuel flowing in fuel return line) by using this trick by keeping it open but as soon as its closed the pump stops. also this is still a n.a. fuel pump i am using and i wasnt sure if there was a fuel pump resistor relay on the n.a. harness.
now for spark. i started for testing for spark by using a spark plug tester and no spark. so then i tested for power to the coils. on the plug to the leading coils only the black/ yellow wire has power and on the trailing coil both wires have power. i then tried the cas trick of having it out plugged in with the key in on and spinning it and no spark. next i tested all the wires going into the cas and there was no power to any of them. when i try to start the car the rpm gauge does not budge. i was reading about if the ecu wasnt grounded there would be no spark, but the only ground i could think of was the one from the bellhousing to the fire wall and that's grounded.
i have check all the fuses under the hood and in the cabin and all are good. the main relay has power going to it and as far i remember it was clicking.
so these are all the symptoms shes having , i tried to word this the best i could and hopefully it came out understandable. please give me some knowledge, this is my first progect car and has taken 3 years and i am so close...
thanks in advance,
justin
so when i went to start the car the fuel pump was getting no power what so ever. when the key was in the on position and in start nothing. i was reading in another post about opening the afm and when i do the fuel pump works, i can hear the pump and the injectors. so i believe i have primed the system(i can feel fuel flowing in fuel return line) by using this trick by keeping it open but as soon as its closed the pump stops. also this is still a n.a. fuel pump i am using and i wasnt sure if there was a fuel pump resistor relay on the n.a. harness.
now for spark. i started for testing for spark by using a spark plug tester and no spark. so then i tested for power to the coils. on the plug to the leading coils only the black/ yellow wire has power and on the trailing coil both wires have power. i then tried the cas trick of having it out plugged in with the key in on and spinning it and no spark. next i tested all the wires going into the cas and there was no power to any of them. when i try to start the car the rpm gauge does not budge. i was reading about if the ecu wasnt grounded there would be no spark, but the only ground i could think of was the one from the bellhousing to the fire wall and that's grounded.
i have check all the fuses under the hood and in the cabin and all are good. the main relay has power going to it and as far i remember it was clicking.
so these are all the symptoms shes having , i tried to word this the best i could and hopefully it came out understandable. please give me some knowledge, this is my first progect car and has taken 3 years and i am so close...
thanks in advance,
justin
10-20-08, 10:58 AM
#2
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The fuel pump circuit should not have changed in anyway. All you did is put a turbo engine in the car.
I'd suggest the ENGINE fuse is bad in the interior fuse box. It controls the circuit opening relay and Main Relay both of which control fuel and spark.
EDIT: I went back and read the whole thread. So forget a little about the above.
The ground for the ECU is located on top of the rear rotor housing. That seems to be your problem. It accounts for the fuel pump not running when and if you jumpered the fuel pump check connector.
The ground ring terminal is shown in the attached jpg.
Here's a one off you might try. Get a piece of wire and ground one end of it. Then, with the other wire, push it in the fuel pump check connectors socket that goes crossways. Key to ON. You should hear the circuit opening relay come and go when you put that new wire in the fuel pump check connector. JPG coming.
I'd suggest the ENGINE fuse is bad in the interior fuse box. It controls the circuit opening relay and Main Relay both of which control fuel and spark.
EDIT: I went back and read the whole thread. So forget a little about the above.
The ground for the ECU is located on top of the rear rotor housing. That seems to be your problem. It accounts for the fuel pump not running when and if you jumpered the fuel pump check connector.
The ground ring terminal is shown in the attached jpg.
Here's a one off you might try. Get a piece of wire and ground one end of it. Then, with the other wire, push it in the fuel pump check connectors socket that goes crossways. Key to ON. You should hear the circuit opening relay come and go when you put that new wire in the fuel pump check connector. JPG coming.
Last edited by HAILERS; 10-20-08 at 11:12 AM.
10-20-08, 11:20 AM
#4
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Naw. Go read my update on my first post. You've seemingly lost your ECU gnds.
I can prove it. Take the air filter off so you can push the afm flap aft.
Look at your fuel pump check connector. Yellow with two sockets. One wire is pure BLACK. The other is BROWN.
Take a piece of wire and put one end to a known ground. Put the other end in the socket of the check connector that is BLACK. Now key to ON. Now push the afm vane aft. You'll hear the circuit opening relay close and also now hear the pump running.........if I'm right. The attached jpg explains allllll.
Look at the jpg. See the number 24 with the circle around it? That is the ground on top of the rear rotor housing. I assume that #24 is not connected to anything. B
BUT if you put a new wire to ground and put it's other end in the socket where the pure black wire is in the check connector, you have now established a ground for the ECU and circuit opening relay.
Just see if that works for the pump action or not. If it does, then you need to remove the upper intake and find the ground ring and bolt it down. Actually, if the pump will now run, you MIGHT try to start the engine using that new ground. IT MIGHT work for a little while. But it is NOT adequate for a gruond for the ECU.
Last edited by HAILERS; 10-20-08 at 11:24 AM.
10-20-08, 11:27 AM
#5
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Don't worry or look for the circuit opening relay. Just follow the instructions above. The circuit opening relay is NOT NOT NOT NOT The problem. It's a loss of ground for the ECU and the circuit opening relay.
The ground from the transmission to firewall is dooodly SQUAT. Meaningless.
The ground from the transmission to firewall is dooodly SQUAT. Meaningless.
10-20-08, 11:28 AM
#6
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Actually problems like this could be quickly fixed by going to the ECU and backprobing the wires in the plugs and comparing them to the input/output given in the FSM, Emissions and Fuel section.
10-20-08, 11:40 AM
#7
hey thank you so far, i was took of the intercooler and about to take off the uim and i say that i have grounded this but i have gounded it on the rear bellhousing idk if this makes a difference.i have done your trick with the wire between the 2 plugs and grounded it and the fuel pump works but i still have no spark
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10-20-08, 12:40 PM
#8
You may have the wrong ground if you grounded it to the bellhousing. From wht I remember, that ground wire is to short to reach the bellhousing. When you lay the harness down, it pretty much places itself exactly at the point it needs to be bolted down to on the rear rotor housing. I'm willing to bet that's your problem as well..
10-20-08, 01:55 PM
#9
ok so i just finished taking off the uim and everything, and the ground was fine. i checked everything and put it back together. with the key in the on position i still only get fuel with either maf open or a jumper wire in the fuel pump checker. i have no clue and not to mention still no spark
10-20-08, 02:06 PM
#10
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When did you expect to get fuel???????? Other than what you just wrote?
Just turning the key to ON does not and never has made the fuel pump work.
I can't explain the lack of spark. IF the CAS is installed and it's connector on, that should do the trick. And you say you have the batt voltage on the black/yellow at each coil assy.
I guess you could and should then remove the ECU plugs and ohm out the CAS circuit from the ECU thru the CAS. Something like 200 ohms resistance. It's in the FSM somewhere. Especially since I think you said you spun the CAS by hand with key to ON and you had no spark nor injector clicking.
Just pull the large plug off the ECU and ohm out the N to P and then the T to O. Should read approx 200 ohms for each pair.
The series four is a bit different than series five. The series four CAS wires go thru another plug to get to the ECU. Make sure that plug is connected to the right place. It's got a name in the jpg of FE-04. FE standing for Front harness to Engine harness. The Engine harness runs on the left side of the engine bay and has the CAS plug on it. The series five has no such plug. It's a straight run on a series five.
Just in case: Turning the key to START and holding it to Start does and should make the fuel pump work. The circuit opening relay has two coils in it that can cause it to pull in. IF the start circuit has been bypassed , then it's possible that when you go to start the wire that connects to the circuit opening relay will not get power and pull the circuit opening relay in when you hold the key to start.
Say it is open. Then jumpering the fuel pump check relay all the time would overcome that fault.
Just turning the key to ON does not and never has made the fuel pump work.
I can't explain the lack of spark. IF the CAS is installed and it's connector on, that should do the trick. And you say you have the batt voltage on the black/yellow at each coil assy.
I guess you could and should then remove the ECU plugs and ohm out the CAS circuit from the ECU thru the CAS. Something like 200 ohms resistance. It's in the FSM somewhere. Especially since I think you said you spun the CAS by hand with key to ON and you had no spark nor injector clicking.
Just pull the large plug off the ECU and ohm out the N to P and then the T to O. Should read approx 200 ohms for each pair.
The series four is a bit different than series five. The series four CAS wires go thru another plug to get to the ECU. Make sure that plug is connected to the right place. It's got a name in the jpg of FE-04. FE standing for Front harness to Engine harness. The Engine harness runs on the left side of the engine bay and has the CAS plug on it. The series five has no such plug. It's a straight run on a series five.
Just in case: Turning the key to START and holding it to Start does and should make the fuel pump work. The circuit opening relay has two coils in it that can cause it to pull in. IF the start circuit has been bypassed , then it's possible that when you go to start the wire that connects to the circuit opening relay will not get power and pull the circuit opening relay in when you hold the key to start.
Say it is open. Then jumpering the fuel pump check relay all the time would overcome that fault.
Last edited by HAILERS; 10-20-08 at 02:24 PM.
10-20-08, 02:29 PM
#12
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How about when you put and hold the key to Start? Not that it matters if you can jumper the yellow plug and make the pump work, that's good enough for starting the engine.
I'd look hard for that plug b/t the CAS and the ECU that carries the CAS wires. IF you have 12vdc at the coils then spinning the bottom gear on the CAS should cause spark IF the wires b/t the CAS and ECU are connected.
One last thought. It's a known that a bad MAF will cause no spark. Remove its electrical plug and then spin the CAS bottoom gear with all wiring connected up less the MAF plug.
The MAF if bad internally can cause the 5vdc ref volgage to drop to nothing. By the way, do you KNOW if your ECU is good or not????? Buy it off this forum? OR???
If none of the above works, try installing your non turbo ECU and give it a try. Will NOT hurt a thing. I mean install the ECU then spin the CAS bottom gear and listen for spark and fuel injectors clicking.
I'd look hard for that plug b/t the CAS and the ECU that carries the CAS wires. IF you have 12vdc at the coils then spinning the bottom gear on the CAS should cause spark IF the wires b/t the CAS and ECU are connected.
One last thought. It's a known that a bad MAF will cause no spark. Remove its electrical plug and then spin the CAS bottoom gear with all wiring connected up less the MAF plug.
The MAF if bad internally can cause the 5vdc ref volgage to drop to nothing. By the way, do you KNOW if your ECU is good or not????? Buy it off this forum? OR???
If none of the above works, try installing your non turbo ECU and give it a try. Will NOT hurt a thing. I mean install the ECU then spin the CAS bottom gear and listen for spark and fuel injectors clicking.
10-20-08, 02:31 PM
#13
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The circuit opening relay is just above the steering wheel about where your knees are. But it works because you jumpered the yellow connector. Just FYI.
It's still a puzzle about how earlier in this thread you jumpered the yellow connector and had no fuel pump action. That still makes me wonder a bit about the ECU gnds. The only way they can be checked is with a meter. As in pull the small pulg off the ECU and put a meter on ohm, neg lead to a know good ground, and then pos lead to the pure black wires on 3A and 3G. And on the middle plug 2R and 2C.
You might go to the small plug and with key ON see if there is batt voltage on the two far left wires, 2I and 2J. If there is not, then for some reason the Main Relay isn't sending batt voltage to the ECU. Key ON.
It's still a puzzle about how earlier in this thread you jumpered the yellow connector and had no fuel pump action. That still makes me wonder a bit about the ECU gnds. The only way they can be checked is with a meter. As in pull the small pulg off the ECU and put a meter on ohm, neg lead to a know good ground, and then pos lead to the pure black wires on 3A and 3G. And on the middle plug 2R and 2C.
You might go to the small plug and with key ON see if there is batt voltage on the two far left wires, 2I and 2J. If there is not, then for some reason the Main Relay isn't sending batt voltage to the ECU. Key ON.
Last edited by HAILERS; 10-20-08 at 02:41 PM.
10-20-08, 02:35 PM
#14
thank you i really appreciate this. i am going to go try and remove the afm. the rtek ecu was brand new in packaging and i already tried my n.a. ecu. i was reading something you wrote about the boost sensor and only the black/white wirer is getting power, idk if that matters. i will let you know as soon as i remove the afm.
10-20-08, 03:05 PM
#15
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thank you i really appreciate this. i am going to go try and remove the afm. the rtek ecu was brand new in packaging and i already tried my n.a. ecu. i was reading something you wrote about the boost sensor and only the black/white wirer is getting power, idk if that matters. i will let you know as soon as i remove the afm.
The BROWN/WHITE wire at the boost sensor, should have APPROX 5VDC on it with the key to ON. IF it does not, then something is killing the REF voltage and that Ref voltage is a MUST for the ECU to produce spark.
The 5vdc is created in the ECU and goes to most of the sensors. If one sensor, like the MAF is pulling that voltage down to nothing, then that kills the ability of the ECU to makes spark or cause the fuel injectors to operated.
10-20-08, 03:18 PM
#16
ok so heres the run down. that brown white wire does not have power. on the small plug to the ecu 2i and 2j have power but 3a and 3g do not and the middle plug doesnt have any powder going to it at all. the cas doesnt have any power going to it all the way to the fire wall. now heres one thing i am wondering. i did cut the passenger side harness in half when i took it out the first time but have soldered it back together. if you think that may be the problem the only other harness i have is a jdm tII
10-20-08, 03:47 PM
#17
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I've spliced that EM harness together before and I can tell you it isn't a straight fwd affair. Mostly because there's a number of wires in there that are all spliced together. It's do able but not desireable.
The small plug would have 3I and 3J and should have power on them.
The small plug ground wires are at 3A and 3G and you put the meter on ohms and look for a resistance. Like 3 or 4 ohms. NOT power.
Cutting that harness in half might very well explain the loss of gnd to the yellow fuel check connector. Like I say, there's a number of oddities to splicing that harness back together.
Especially if you soldered a brown/white wire to a gnd wire or something else.
Yeah. I'd go put the Turbo EM harness in the car.
There's a couple of minor changes you NEED to do to the ORANGE plugs prior to installation.
Just in case. When counting the wires at the plug, you look in the wire side of the plug and count from RIGHT to LEFT in a up down method. Like 3a is on top right, 3B is just below it, and on and on.
The power to the ECU is on that small plug where you verified power on the 3I and 3J. Good. the other plugs won't have power if your checking the plugs with them disconnected. They will have poweron some wires when those plugs are connected to the ECU and the small ECU plug is also connected up.
IN particular, 2A should have approx 5vdc on it if you BACKPROBE that wire with it connected up to the ECU. That wire is BROWN/WHITE and feeds the sensors 5vdc ref voltage. Gotta have that. IF you see only 2vdc........not worth a damn. Gotta be approx 5vdc. As in 4.5vdc or above (just made that standard up).
The small plug would have 3I and 3J and should have power on them.
The small plug ground wires are at 3A and 3G and you put the meter on ohms and look for a resistance. Like 3 or 4 ohms. NOT power.
Cutting that harness in half might very well explain the loss of gnd to the yellow fuel check connector. Like I say, there's a number of oddities to splicing that harness back together.
Especially if you soldered a brown/white wire to a gnd wire or something else.
Yeah. I'd go put the Turbo EM harness in the car.
There's a couple of minor changes you NEED to do to the ORANGE plugs prior to installation.
Just in case. When counting the wires at the plug, you look in the wire side of the plug and count from RIGHT to LEFT in a up down method. Like 3a is on top right, 3B is just below it, and on and on.
The power to the ECU is on that small plug where you verified power on the 3I and 3J. Good. the other plugs won't have power if your checking the plugs with them disconnected. They will have poweron some wires when those plugs are connected to the ECU and the small ECU plug is also connected up.
IN particular, 2A should have approx 5vdc on it if you BACKPROBE that wire with it connected up to the ECU. That wire is BROWN/WHITE and feeds the sensors 5vdc ref voltage. Gotta have that. IF you see only 2vdc........not worth a damn. Gotta be approx 5vdc. As in 4.5vdc or above (just made that standard up).
Last edited by HAILERS; 10-20-08 at 03:54 PM.
10-20-08, 03:56 PM
#18
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Remember, if you put the Trubo harness in the car, you SHOULD do the corrections to the ORANGE plugs first . It's just toooo hard to do it when the harness is already in the car.
10-20-08, 05:22 PM
#19
hey man thank you so far i wont be able to do any more today so tomorrow after work im gonna spend all day. im going to take out the harness and make sure i connected them all right. also what do you mean by the orange plugs. is a s4 jdm harness and it plugs in to ecu fine. thanks again and i will definitely need your help tomorrow.
10-20-08, 05:46 PM
#20
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Uh oh. JDM harness is going to be a lot of trouble.
See the jpg I attached a post or so ago with a scraggly harness laying on the concrete? There I pointed out two orange colored plugs. I fear your JDM harness has not those plugs. Kinda major problem in my opinion. I care not to figure out how to install a JDM left hand drive harness. Ain't a gonna even try.
It's been done, but not what I'd use. I'd use the non turbo harness like you were trying to do. But unfortunatley something is amiss with the splices. I can't figure out what from this side of the computer screen and pictures won't help.
I'm at a loss as to what you should do.
Question? What is the JDM harness???? The one in the car now, or another one you have????
When you take your spliced area apart tomorrow, pay attention to brown/white wires. They should not be connected to any other color wire. Ground wires are pure BLACK. The BROWN/BLACK wires are the sensors ground wires that all get spliced together somewhere and eventually go to pin 2A.
See the jpg I attached a post or so ago with a scraggly harness laying on the concrete? There I pointed out two orange colored plugs. I fear your JDM harness has not those plugs. Kinda major problem in my opinion. I care not to figure out how to install a JDM left hand drive harness. Ain't a gonna even try.
It's been done, but not what I'd use. I'd use the non turbo harness like you were trying to do. But unfortunatley something is amiss with the splices. I can't figure out what from this side of the computer screen and pictures won't help.
I'm at a loss as to what you should do.
Question? What is the JDM harness???? The one in the car now, or another one you have????
When you take your spliced area apart tomorrow, pay attention to brown/white wires. They should not be connected to any other color wire. Ground wires are pure BLACK. The BROWN/BLACK wires are the sensors ground wires that all get spliced together somewhere and eventually go to pin 2A.
Last edited by HAILERS; 10-20-08 at 05:57 PM.
10-21-08, 01:21 PM
#21
ok i am going to take the harness off and investigate. now if everything is fine do you think there is another problem or would it still be becuase it was soldered back together. oh the jdm harness is just and extra one i have lying around
10-21-08, 03:46 PM
#23
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Unbolt the ECU. Leave the plugs attached.
Get a meter out and put the neg lead on a KNOWN good ground.
Key to ON and all plugs/connectors connected up.
FSM open to CONTROL UNIT, where each pin and its value is written.
Backprobe each pin on the ECU and compare it to the CONTROL UNIT pages.
Takes a half hour to an hour. You unbolt the ECU so you can tilt the plugs up at a angle you can get to them at.
Personally, I'd start with pin 2A and look for approx 4.5vdc. IF it's less or even as low as 2vdc, then unplug each sensor that recieves power from 2A. Like afm, tps, variable resistor if the car has one, boost sensor, ATP etc. IF all are disconnected, and the 2A still has not recovered to approx 4.5 vdc.........could be a couple of things.
Next on my list would be checking the gnd wires for a value less than .4 ohms. Key OFF when checking for resistance.
Get a meter out and put the neg lead on a KNOWN good ground.
Key to ON and all plugs/connectors connected up.
FSM open to CONTROL UNIT, where each pin and its value is written.
Backprobe each pin on the ECU and compare it to the CONTROL UNIT pages.
Takes a half hour to an hour. You unbolt the ECU so you can tilt the plugs up at a angle you can get to them at.
Personally, I'd start with pin 2A and look for approx 4.5vdc. IF it's less or even as low as 2vdc, then unplug each sensor that recieves power from 2A. Like afm, tps, variable resistor if the car has one, boost sensor, ATP etc. IF all are disconnected, and the 2A still has not recovered to approx 4.5 vdc.........could be a couple of things.
Next on my list would be checking the gnd wires for a value less than .4 ohms. Key OFF when checking for resistance.
10-21-08, 07:30 PM
#25
ok so i tried checking the volts. on the small plug everything was getting 12v. im not positive on how to check ohms. when i check it the numbers flash and then goes to 0. so im not positive what that means. now the middle plug wasnt getting anything.
also the ecu was heating. also at one point the idiot cluster was lighting up and the speedo was showing 12v and now neither do.
i have these 4 plugs inside the cabin which are unplugged and i have no idea if these are messing things up. the first 2 are by the ecu the black pluck is from the body harness and the white one is on the same harness with the 2 plugs for the ecu. the second picture is by the ingnition. and the third pic is under the steering column.
i am so confused at this point and really have no idea where to look. i am getting 12v to th ecoil but nothing to the cas.
also the ecu was heating. also at one point the idiot cluster was lighting up and the speedo was showing 12v and now neither do.
i have these 4 plugs inside the cabin which are unplugged and i have no idea if these are messing things up. the first 2 are by the ecu the black pluck is from the body harness and the white one is on the same harness with the 2 plugs for the ecu. the second picture is by the ingnition. and the third pic is under the steering column.
i am so confused at this point and really have no idea where to look. i am getting 12v to th ecoil but nothing to the cas.