ska3260

iTrader: (1)

I am thinking of investing in a piggyback system to tune my 1990 N/A 6-port with. I have looked a bit and am thinking of the Greddy e-manage. Anyone heard any feedback about these or have any other rec's?

koukifc3s

iTrader: (3)

Lots of people have been using the S-AFC. Cheap and easy to use.

ska3260

iTrader: (1)

where can i get one from and how do you program them? through laptop?

koukifc3s

iTrader: (3)

They are not that complicated.



You can add/remove fuel with those in % increments throughout the RPM range.

They are pretty cheap on ebay

BlaCkPlaGUE

That looks different than the safc on the rx7.com website.. is it an older one or something?

Does an NA really benefit from getting an safc? I need to get one anyways for my turbo project but I don't think the NA needs any more fuel, its topped out. I was thinking you could lean it out quite a bit and get yourself some better gas milage with the safc for the na?

ska3260

iTrader: (1)

nice thanks a lot man. So that plugs directly into the ecu? or do you have to splice it in?

koukifc3s

iTrader: (3)

thats the S-AFCII, the new model

You have to splice it in

and n/a run really rich when modded, gains of 15hp are not uncommon from leaning them out in the higher RPMs.
They really wake up your midrange too

Theres is also the HKS SAFR. Im getting that just for a change.

ska3260

iTrader: (1)

I have ported the engine and have a good deal of mods done to it and i am also planning on adding nitrous to it this winter. So that is kinda what my real question is , is what should i go with to best draw out the power of the mods

BlaCkPlaGUE

RX7.com has a nice harness for the safc.. however its 150$USD, way too much for a do-it-yourself type thing.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Although many will disagree with me, I think of piggyback systems more as bandaids. Yes you can get more power out of them but you can't get anywhere near the car's potential with them. At least not on a 2nd gen you can't. There are so many different standalone ecu's on the market in all different price ranges, there is almost no excuse to waste your money on a bandaid system. You will still have a restrictive air flow meter. If you've already spent the time and money on a rebuilt engine and you are going to spend the money on nitrous, why don't you spend the money on a truly tunable system rather than improvise it? There is more to tuning an engine than just adding or subtracting fuel. This is especially true with nitrous. Spend the money and do it right the first time or spend more money and time and do it again. Buy a standalone such as a Microtech, Haltech, etc...

koukifc3s

iTrader: (3)

true but not too many people can afford those, especially with an n/a FC

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

If a person is willing to spend the money to have a ported engine and a nitrous system, there is little excuse left for not wanting it to be controlled properly. I understand if it is that average kid who has a stock engine and can only afford bolt ons. He has all of this though. Why skimp now? To have come so far and then just be satisfied with merely making it work a little better makes no sense to me. When you've done that much already, you have done nothing but wasted all of that money if you aren't willing to get everything out of it.

BlaCkPlaGUE

Maybe if you've gone all out and bridge ported it, but for us every day drivers of the FC n/a I don't think the 1200$usd price tag is worth the extra horse power...

Instead of telling us we should get the ecu, tell us exactly why we should get the ecu, how much hp it will give, what are the features, alot of us don't know why it costs 1200$ or exactly what its capable of. people like myself

Kingofl337

I have an e-manage on my miata and I think its worth the little extra over the AFC. Espcially if you have a laptop. Being able to adjust timing and fuel is excellent for tuning. I'll be getting one for my FC as soon as all the electrical issues are 100%.

ska3260

iTrader: (1)

I am with the plague here what is the benifits of a standalone vs. piggy back and is it REALLY worth the price diffrence?

Parastie

No.

A Standalone is only good if you're going for large HP numbers (above 300hp). A piggy back system and the stock ECU works great. If you have an NA and not planning on going for a large BP or PP then you're fine with the stock ECU and the SAFC-II piggyback.

I have the SAFC-II (the one pictured above) and it's VERY simple to use and configure. Well worth the cost in my opinion!

Parastie

An NA engine can benefit from the Piggyback. Leaning out the fuel can create more power as well as get better gas mileage. Stock the ECU runs rich on the NA engines.

Parastie

While rotarygod is right about the tunability (no matter what, you'll never get the options from a piggy back you can get from a standalone), i think the piggyback setup works great for most mods (including street ports and free flowing Exhaust).

As far NO2 goes though, i have no idea.

koukifc3s

iTrader: (3)

wet setup should do the trick

nonameo

I have heard somewhere that using an safc also changes your ignition timing. This makes good sense when you think about it.

fuel is a function of variables that includes AFM position.

ignition timing is a function of variables that also includes the AFM position.


even though we're only trying to change fuel with the SAFC, the timing ends up being off.

Parastie

The SAFC tricks the computer into using less or more fuel by changing the AFM signal before it gets to the ECU. The ECU does adjust the timing based on AFM, but i'm not certain how much. The SAFC by itself DOES NOT adjust the timing, however.

Kingofl337

Stand alone:
You are starting from scratch. Reinventing the wheel so to say. You wire your own wiring harness. You install what sensors you want. Plus the required ones.
You program every fasset and detail into the unit. Including fuel maps, air flow tables and timing from scratch. Unless you get a pre-exsiting program from someone. If you like to tweak and change every last detail of how your car is running this one is for you! You must goto the dyno and make sure everything is tuned correctly espcialy with a rotory. (I heart Apex Seals)


Cost: 1200.00 +
Install: 6-8hrs
Tuning: 1-2hrs Dyno Time Highly Recommended
Other: Wide Band O2 Highly recommended, EGT, & Laptop
HP: IF tuned correctly you can get everylast drop.
Supports Datalogging : Yes - Every Sensor

E-Manage:
You are tweaking exsisting values in the stock ECU. The e-manage lies to your ECU or overrides it to get a desired result. Need more timing sure add some on. Need more fuel same deal just tack it on. E-Manage Modifies timiing signal and Lies about Air Flow to The ECU. It also lets you control two extra injectors and control fuel based on MAP. If you tweak alot you should goto the dyno and tune the car correctly. 16x16 Timing, Additional Fuel and Air Flow Correction Tables

Cost: $350-$550 (Depends on if you buy parts from Greddy or E-Manage Yahoo Groups)
Install Time: 1-2hrs
Tuning: 3 Dyno Pulls or 1/2hr with friends wideband
Other: Laptop Computer, EGT
HP: You can come pretty close within 5-10hp of what you setup can do.
Supports Data Logging: Yes (Only Injector Duty, Timing Changes and Air Flow Adjustment)

SAFC:
You are editing an exsiting group of values. Has Hi throttle and Low Throttle Values. Not a whole bunch of tweakablity. Its like a quick dirty fix to get fueling close on a car that needs extra fuel or needs to be leaned out a bit.
Cost: $175-$220
Install Time: 30min - 1hr
Tuning: 3 Dyno Pulls or 1/2hr with friends wideband
Other: EGT?
HP: You can come pretty close within 15-20hp of what you setup can do.
Supports Data Logging: No

That should sum it up.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

My problem with a piggyback is that the damn air flow meter has to stay. You will pick up an easy 10% more power just by not having it there and that is on a stock motor. That is also not including any tuning from an ecu. You don't have to spend $1200 to get a standalone. You can get a Microtech for less. Hell, even a fuel only ecu and use the stock one to control the ignition timing but get rid of the air flow meter.

If there is little benefit to getting a standalone over a piggyback, then I'm going to have to say the same thing about a street ported engine vs a stock one. That is alot of money and down time on the car. Far more than just installing or paying for a standalone. A stock engine with all bolt ons and a standalone that is properly tuned will be faster than a streetport on a stock ecu. A port job should always be the very last mod you do. When I ported my GSL-SE, it gained a little. Converting that car to direct fire (which the 2nd gen has) made a bigger difference than the port job. The exhaust system made a bigger difference than the port job. The flywheel made a bigger difference than the port job. The ecu made a way bigger difference than the port job. Porting it requires the car to be out of comission for a while. You can't tell me that rebuilding an engine is within the scope of people but installing and tuning an ecu isn't. There is so much support for it out there and there are so many base maps that you can get from others that will work fine until you fine tune it. I don't see why anyone would go to the trouble of porting their engine, installing nitrous, and then skimping where it really counts. The afm has 5 square inches of intake area and even then there is a spring loaded trap door resisiting airflow even more. Why port the engine or the manifolds and try to add power when you are still severly choking it?

I do think that there are times when a piggyback system is fine. I understand many people are poor and can only afford these systems. For mild mods they are fine. I just feel that once you've crossed the rebuild/porting barrier financially, you have proven that you want more perfomance from your engine. You can not get it with an air flow meter. I don't care what system it is. If you did all of the work on your car yourself, you have proven that you are skilled enough to run some wires and learn how to tune an ecu. If you paid for someone else to build and install an engine for you, you have proven you can afford to do it all properly and want to.

The greddy e-manage system may in fact be a very good option for a good price. If does have the ability to read a mass air flow sensor if set up properly. Someone find a mass air flow sensor and see if you can adapt it. A mass air flow sensor isn't that restrictive compared to an air flow meter. I would consider this a worthwhile mod.

Parastie

In some states, an aftermarket ECU is not street legal or smog legal. For that matter, neither is the piggypack, but it's easier to remove/hide.

A street ported properly tuned with a piggypack can pass smog.

rotarygod

iTrader: (1)

Technically no form of porting is smog legal. I have never seen anyone rummage through a car looking for any ecu changes. Remove the stock ecu and install the new one there. Simple.