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I am wanting to collect the pieces to eventually put together a 13b-rew block. I'm trying to figure out what parts from a S5 turbo I can use in the 13B-REW. I have a TII block but I think only the rear iron is usable so since I have to buy a front and center iron anyway I want to just get all REW irons. From referencing parts on Mazdatrix and lingering on here for years here's what I think I know.
I can use my rotor housings and rear stationary gear but will need to swap the bearing for a multi window. Rotors and rear counterweight (I'm running a lightweight flywheel) will work. Oil pump chain and gears are the same I just need a REW pump. REW oil press reg. Tension bolts are the same. REW spacer and needle bearings. I need the front hub and bolt if I want to run the REW main pulley.
What I don't know.
1. Can I use my E-shaft? Mazdatrix lists a different part# for 93-95.
2. Do I have to use the REW front stationary gear? They list a 93-95 gear they still have but it cost more than an iron. I'm guessing I use the REW thrust pate and front counterweight with it. They also list a Type II that is NLA that fits 76-95. Does this mean I can use the S5 gear? If so do I use my thrust plate and front counterweight?
3. Can I use an RX-8 front stationary gear? They are cheap and available.
That's all I can think of right now. If I've missed anything let me know. Thanks.
P.S. I already have the REW intake manifolds, throttle body, fuel rails, and front cover.
off the top though, the oil pump is a different shape, although the guts are the same.
oil pump chain an gears are the same
tension bolts are the same
the FD e shaft has different clearances than the FC shaft, the rear of the rear main bearing gets a little more clearance, like the race cars.
the FD stat gears have an extra groove for the multi window bearings. the bearings were graded and selectively fit, so the clearances are better. if you use the FD or Rx8 gears then you can upgrade to the bigger thrust bearings.
depending on what you're trying to do (na? turbo?) the FD upgrades are nice to have, but obviously not needed.
you also might look at the cost of a new engine, N3G1-02-200, they get built to order so it takes a while, but everything is new
plan B, you might just build an S5 turbo engine with the FD front cover and upper intake, it bolts in the car, but can have all of the upgrades of the FD engine, its what the JDM tuners do
off the top though, the oil pump is a different shape, although the guts are the same.
oil pump chain an gears are the same
tension bolts are the same
the FD e shaft has different clearances than the FC shaft, the rear of the rear main bearing gets a little more clearance, like the race cars.
the FD stat gears have an extra groove for the multi window bearings. the bearings were graded and selectively fit, so the clearances are better. if you use the FD or Rx8 gears then you can upgrade to the bigger thrust bearings.
depending on what you're trying to do (na? turbo?) the FD upgrades are nice to have, but obviously not needed.
you also might look at the cost of a new engine, N3G1-02-200, they get built to order so it takes a while, but everything is new
plan B, you might just build an S5 turbo engine with the FD front cover and upper intake, it bolts in the car, but can have all of the upgrades of the FD engine, its what the JDM tuners do
Thanks for the link. I was under the impression that the REW irons had better ports than the TII. Hence people making good n/a power with them on even stock ports. I guess the question is: is the juice worth the squeeze to get those ports. As for what I am trying to do depends on what day of the week you catch me on. My end goal doesn't change. It is to go turbo and make around 350rwhp. I know a TII motor can do that. A part of me wants to build a n/a motor using street ported REW irons and try to get over the elusive 200rwhp point. Then turbo that engine. Reality is my current 6-port will probably be turbocharged before this REW gets built so who knows if I'd ditch boost at that point to do a temporary n/a build. I keep getting pulled toward this 200+ rwhp n/a 13B-REW rabbit hole in my head.
I think if I could put together an engine using my S5 rotor housings, rotors, E-shaft, stat. gears with some REW irons, oil pump/ front cover it would have all my bases covered for what I want to do.
The irons are very different, most don't call those internals. The rotor housings are somewhat different though functionally they can generally be used.
is the juice worth the squeeze to get those ports.
for what its worth i'm kind of in the same boat, or like i know i'll need a boat maybe in 2024. anyways for a turbo car it doesn't seem like its worth the extra money and hassle to get the FD ports, like you say the FC engine will do that, and you can use all of the other FD parts and get everything else in a package that bolts in the car, without making/buying mounts. the JDM tuners will buy the 5 FC housings, but basically use FD everything else, and then use the FD upper intake, and sometimes front cover and water pump. i can dig up a couple/few examples of an REW swapped FC from a JDM shop, but its really rare
for an NA though maybe it is worth it? you would be starting with a better combination.
mine is kind of funny, i'm staying turbo, and i need to come up with something to choose between the two engines, but it just isn't a big deal either way
in theory the 13B-T is easier to smog in theory, because its just stock. its hard to find a smog shop that will actually smog a car this old, even for money though
cost is funny, the 13B-T is more expensive than the REW, but its like $150
power, i need to keep the emissions, which means i can't really upgrade the injectors in the REW, which caps it at like ~320hp, which is fine. the FC engine, you can just drop off the shelf injectors in....
so i can't make up my mind either
for what its worth i'm kind of in the same boat, or like i know i'll need a boat maybe in 2024. anyways for a turbo car it doesn't seem like its worth the extra money and hassle to get the FD ports, like you say the FC engine will do that, and you can use all of the other FD parts and get everything else in a package that bolts in the car, without making/buying mounts. the JDM tuners will buy the 5 FC housings, but basically use FD everything else, and then use the FD upper intake, and sometimes front cover and water pump. i can dig up a couple/few examples of an REW swapped FC from a JDM shop, but its really rare
for an NA though maybe it is worth it? you would be starting with a better combination.
mine is kind of funny, i'm staying turbo, and i need to come up with something to choose between the two engines, but it just isn't a big deal either way
in theory the 13B-T is easier to smog in theory, because its just stock. its hard to find a smog shop that will actually smog a car this old, even for money though
cost is funny, the 13B-T is more expensive than the REW, but its like $150
power, i need to keep the emissions, which means i can't really upgrade the injectors in the REW, which caps it at like ~320hp, which is fine. the FC engine, you can just drop off the shelf injectors in....
so i can't make up my mind either
Luckily, I don't have to worry about smog as at the moment as my county doesn't do it and IIRC in the counties that do, they don't smog cars older than 25 years. Even then it's probably just tailpipe emissions and not the strict visual of CA. So, I can mix and match which brings me to my next question and the start of thread drift. I discovered Mazdatrix still has13B-RE housings and the center one is cheaper than the REW. If I could use an RE center and REW front and rear it would make mounting easier. IIRC the REW lower intake bolts up to an RE block so it should work but some port matching may need to be done. Also relating to my original question which E-shaft and stat gears does the 13B-RE use? I'm not committed to the REW front cover so if using RE irons and FC front cover is a better option the RE set is still cheaper than FC irons and only $72 more than REW irons as of today. As long as I can use the auto trans rear 13B-RE iron.
The irons are very different, most don't call those internals. The rotor housings are somewhat different though functionally they can generally be used.
I may have used the wrong terminology but am mainly concerned with what internal parts I have (E-shaft, stationary gears, etc.) that can be used in an engine using the REW irons.
Luckily, I don't have to worry about smog as at the moment as my county doesn't do it and IIRC in the counties that do, they don't smog cars older than 25 years. Even then it's probably just tailpipe emissions and not the strict visual of CA. So, I can mix and match which brings me to my next question and the start of thread drift. I discovered Mazdatrix still has13B-RE housings and the center one is cheaper than the REW. If I could use an RE center and REW front and rear it would make mounting easier. IIRC the REW lower intake bolts up to an RE block so it should work but some port matching may need to be done. Also relating to my original question which E-shaft and stat gears does the 13B-RE use? I'm not committed to the REW front cover so if using RE irons and FC front cover is a better option the RE set is still cheaper than FC irons and only $72 more than REW irons as of today. As long as I can use the auto trans rear 13B-RE iron.
the cosmo is a nice in between, it uses the same E shaft as the FC does, N327-11-D00B
Edit, the 13B Cosmo uses the same gears and bearings as the 13B-T. the 20B uses the multi window bearings in NF01 gears, which are probably like the FD ones
the cosmo is a nice in between, it uses the same E shaft as the FC does, N327-11-D00B
Edit, the 13B Cosmo uses the same gears and bearings as the 13B-T. the 20B uses the multi window bearings in NF01 gears, which are probably like the FD ones
i guess if Mazda mixed and matched, you can too.
Sounds like the Cosmo may be the way for me to go and just port match my FD LIM to it. Do you know which oil pump the 13B-RE used?
Thanks for your help.
Edit to add: Besides IIRC it was a streetported 13B-RE Defined Autoworks made 230rwhp with using modified RE manifolds. Though I don't expect I'd make that much as I don't have the resources, they do and using different intakes but seems like a good base to start with.
Sounds like the Cosmo may be the way for me to go and just port match my FD LIM to it. Do you know which oil pump the 13B-RE used?
Thanks for your help.
FD and Cosmo use the same NF01-14-100 oil pump. the guts are the same as the turbo FC, they changed the case/housing to make it flow better
Edit to add: Besides IIRC it was a streetported 13B-RE Defined Autoworks made 230rwhp with using modified RE manifolds. Though I don't expect I'd make that much as I don't have the resources, they do and using different intakes but seems like a good base to start with.
it was! if you search he posted the whole journey, a bunch of threads
I will. It's been a few years since I read through it. Now I'll just hope the RE irons don't become NLA before I save up enough to buy them all.
my other favorite 13B-RE car is this one, its a ported Cosmo engine, with the REW intakes, Cosmo throttle body and elbow
they used a hybrid S5 turbo, like a Knightsports or something, 90mm exhaust. stock REW injectors and chipped ecu
they claim 340hp at 15psi, probably flywheel.
my other favorite 13B-RE car is this one, its a ported Cosmo engine, with the REW intakes, Cosmo throttle body and elbow
they used a hybrid S5 turbo, like a Knightsports or something, 90mm exhaust. stock REW injectors and chipped ecu
they claim 340hp at 15psi, probably flywheel.
the car seems super simple too, which is neat
My end goal after I leave the n/a world would be a setup similar to that, but with a Borg Warner turbo eventually.
Resurrecting this thread. Rather than starting a new one for a couple of related questions. I may have the money soon to go ahead and buy the irons before prices go up. I think I have changed my mind from the RE irons and am just going to get the REW ones .Below are my new questions.
1. Will the FC stationary gears bolt to and work with the REW irons? I think so or at least the rear since Rx-8 rear gears bolt to FC irons and Mazdatrix sells these modified Rx-8 gears STATIONARY GEAR 13B REAR, HARDENED, 360° OIL FEED BEARING 76-95 - Mazdatrix for all '76 to '95 13B's using FD or Rx-8 E-shafts.
2.If so what modification is needed to run this bearing Rotary Engine 3-Window Main Bearing - Mazdatrix It looks like that is the bearing Mazdatrix is putting in this Rx-8 Stat gear they've machined the O-ring groove into. STATIONARY GEAR 13B REAR, HARDENED, 360° MULTI-WINDOW BEARING 76-95 - Mazdatrix It looks like RB modified the old gears to use it.
3.If I want the larger thrust plate of the FD front Stat gear, can I use the Rx-8 front gear and hone/remove a little material out of the bearing to clearance it to the TII E-shaft? Rx-8 front stat gear is only $166.76.
I ask because I think I want to upgrade to the multiwindow bearings of the newer engines. Thanks.
so the stat gears work like this, for the 13B
the 74-88 gears are all the same, 3648 part numbers
the 89-91 FC and Cosmo gears are identical but hardened, N370 part numbers
the FD gears are hardened, and add the multi window bearings, and add the larger thrust washer in the front.
there are/were also a competition set of stat gears which had the multi window bearings and were hardened, 4801?
i'm hazier about the Rx8, i think the front is basically the same as the FD, but the rear has the O ring move, so its not a direct swap.
for the bearings there are basically three part numbers
the normal ones, 0820 part number, so R100 on.
the race multi window bearings
and then the FD and manual trans Rx8 bearings, which are basically production versions of the race part
i'm not sure i'm answering the question, but there are a few ways to get hardened gears and multi window bearings in the engine. FD is the easy way to say it
pretty sure you can machine any gear to use the big thrust washer, and or maybe it just fits anyways?
So I called Mazdatrix and asked them about the 3 window main bearing. They said that is the one I would use in my S5 stationary gear but, I wouldn't get the full benefit from it without modifying my stationary gear to feed oil to those additional holes. I asked what modification needed to be done but he didn't know what RB was doing to their modified Type I gear. STATIONARY GEAR 13B,-NLA-REAR TYPE I 3 WINDOW - Mazdatrix. He told me to call RB and ask them. I may dig out my old Racing Beat Technical manual and see if there is any info in it. The easy button is just buy the modified Rx-8 gear with the 3 window in it but I have a perfectly good rear stationary gear already.
On another note I looked at prices for irons. The REW ones have already went up since December '22 when I started this thread and the RE ones have not. It's currently $110.58 cheaper for the 13B-RE irons. Back in December the REW set was $72.30 less than the RE set. So I may end up changing my mind back to the RE ones and just upgrading to the multi-window main bearings.
So I called Mazdatrix and asked them about the 3 window main bearing. They said that is the one I would use in my S5 stationary gear but, I wouldn't get the full benefit from it without modifying my stationary gear to feed oil to those additional holes. I asked what modification needed to be done but he didn't know what RB was doing to their modified Type I gear. STATIONARY GEAR 13B,-NLA-REAR TYPE I 3 WINDOW - Mazdatrix. He told me to call RB and ask them. I may dig out my old Racing Beat Technical manual and see if there is any info in it. The easy button is just buy the modified Rx-8 gear with the 3 window in it but I have a perfectly good rear stationary gear already.
On another note I looked at prices for irons. The REW ones have already went up since December '22 when I started this thread and the RE ones have not. It's currently $110.58 cheaper for the 13B-RE irons. Back in December the REW set was $72.30 less than the RE set. So I may end up changing my mind back to the RE ones and just upgrading to the multi-window main bearings.
i think RB mills a channel behind the channel in the bearing, although i've never seen one. i also think the RB catalog mentions it, i could look but its over there and i'm over here, lol
i noticed that too with the irons, prices vary. i built a spread sheet to compute the cost of each engine, T2 vs Cosmo 13B vs REW vs a new REW engine. its seals, gaskets, housings and rotors
for ME where i'm sitting, the T2 engine is the cheapest, but for $100 more i can buy a NEW 13B-REW, and its already assembled.
for me the Cosmo engine is $300 more than that, and then if i rebuilt the REW i already have, its the most expensive, $700 more, lol
i know it depends on what you have to start with, so ymmv, but it helps to make a list or something. i mean i can't decide, so i looked at what the cheapest was lol
i think RB mills a channel behind the channel in the bearing, although i've never seen one. i also think the RB catalog mentions it, i could look but its over there and i'm over here, lol
My RB catalog wasn't too hard to get to. It says " We offer the option of a "three window" bearing and additional machining of the internal groove in the stationary gear to allow greatly improved oil delivery." So yeah, sounds like they are milling the groove deeper. I guess I'd have to contact them to get what the final depth was. Not sure what the cost to machine that groove locally would be. May end up cheaper to just buy the modified Rx-8 gear. especially if the one with the stock Rx-8 bearing's clearance would be in spec with my E-shaft.
Originally Posted by j9fd3s
i noticed that too with the irons, prices vary. i built a spread sheet to compute the cost of each engine, T2 vs Cosmo 13B vs REW vs a new REW engine. its seals, gaskets, housings and rotors
for ME where i'm sitting, the T2 engine is the cheapest, but for $100 more i can buy a NEW 13B-REW, and its already assembled.
for me the Cosmo engine is $300 more than that, and then if i rebuilt the REW i already have, its the most expensive, $700 more, lol
i know it depends on what you have to start with, so ymmv, but it helps to make a list or something. i mean i can't decide, so i looked at what the cheapest was lol
If the TII rotors I have aren't salvageable (the side seals are currently rusted into the rotors) as they sat in a water/antifreeze mix in an engine with blown coolant seals, it may be close to a wash to buy the new REW. That said my current engine has about 100k miles on it so unless I have an unforeseen failure soon, I can stretch the cost out over a couple to a few years by getting the irons now, other misc. parts like if I need rotors in a year or two, and then the gaskets/seals, etc. later when I'm ready to build it. I think I will put together a spread sheet, so I see the comparison easier than the post it notes my prices are currently on.
12-06-22, 11:22 AM
