Paging Dr. HAILERS!!!
03-08-11, 09:10 AM
#1
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Paging Dr. HAILERS!!!
HAILERS,
I tried to PM you, but I guess you had that option turned off because you'd be answering question all day long lol.
So I am having an issue with some shitty wiring done by a shop, that installed my Haltech unit.
The issue Im having is with the charging system. The way they have it works, but I feel there is some type of issue with it. It doesnt charge at idle and they seamed to just have the wires to switched power and a relay. Im not sure how they hooked it up exactly because they just left all my original alt wiring in place and added there own. It looks like the got confused when the saw mine.
Im not sure you remember, but you originally helped me wire my tII emission harness to an N/A engine harness, when I was using a PFC. At that time everything worked fine even tho I had a slight draw. Now that Iv gone standalone I need to know if it the b/w and w/b wires on the alt. Can be hooked up to their original connector under the trailing coil or if they should be rerouted the the connector under the dash that I had it hooked up to prior to theses guys changing everything. What would you recommend? Im pretty sure that the reason I had to originally rerouted the wires was because the N/A emisson harness that wasnt used had the original Alt. wires to go to the PCM? Its been a while I could have it wronge but its something like that. So now that I went standalone does it make a difference how I hook it up?
Any help would be greatly apperciated.
Thank you very much,
James
I tried to PM you, but I guess you had that option turned off because you'd be answering question all day long lol.
So I am having an issue with some shitty wiring done by a shop, that installed my Haltech unit.
The issue Im having is with the charging system. The way they have it works, but I feel there is some type of issue with it. It doesnt charge at idle and they seamed to just have the wires to switched power and a relay. Im not sure how they hooked it up exactly because they just left all my original alt wiring in place and added there own. It looks like the got confused when the saw mine.
Im not sure you remember, but you originally helped me wire my tII emission harness to an N/A engine harness, when I was using a PFC. At that time everything worked fine even tho I had a slight draw. Now that Iv gone standalone I need to know if it the b/w and w/b wires on the alt. Can be hooked up to their original connector under the trailing coil or if they should be rerouted the the connector under the dash that I had it hooked up to prior to theses guys changing everything. What would you recommend? Im pretty sure that the reason I had to originally rerouted the wires was because the N/A emisson harness that wasnt used had the original Alt. wires to go to the PCM? Its been a while I could have it wronge but its something like that. So now that I went standalone does it make a difference how I hook it up?
Any help would be greatly apperciated.
Thank you very much,
James
03-08-11, 09:52 AM
#4
Difference between the S4 and S5 alternator is the S4 B/W wire goes to a switched power (voltage source), which in this case would be the 15 amp Engine fuse while on an S5 the B/W wire is run to a constant power source instead just like the S6 alternator (fd).
03-08-11, 09:55 AM
#5
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and the w/b wire is to the dash light where does this have to be ran to the coil area or under the dash? so i have to run the b/w wire to strait 12v? i did not kno the difference between alt they had switched the s5 alt in cuz the blew my s4 and could not get it to work and swapped in an extra s5
03-08-11, 10:08 AM
#6
The W/B wire at the alternator is part of the Engine harness which connects to the Front harness at connector FE-03 which has 5 wires. The Front harness routes the W/B wire to the largest plug at the CPU. The B/W wire can be run to one of two places. Some run it to the B terminal at the alternator while others run it to a fuse at the engine fuse box.
03-08-11, 10:15 AM
#7
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You know, I'm going to add to this conversation.
The sensor (b/w) wire on an S4 runs to the battery via the ignition switch. The sensor (b/w) wire on an S5/S6 runs directly to the battery itself.
Since the only time the sensor wire needs to see power is when the ignition is turned on, when doing an S5/S6 alternator to S4 swap, why not simply use the same S4 sensor wire rather than a separate fused connection to the battery?
Qualification, I did the sensor wire direct to the battery modification when I put my S6 alternator into my S4. But after doing so, it seems I no longer have the idiot light notification if the alternator takes a crap.
Hailers??????
The sensor (b/w) wire on an S4 runs to the battery via the ignition switch. The sensor (b/w) wire on an S5/S6 runs directly to the battery itself.
Since the only time the sensor wire needs to see power is when the ignition is turned on, when doing an S5/S6 alternator to S4 swap, why not simply use the same S4 sensor wire rather than a separate fused connection to the battery?
Qualification, I did the sensor wire direct to the battery modification when I put my S6 alternator into my S4. But after doing so, it seems I no longer have the idiot light notification if the alternator takes a crap.
Hailers??????
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03-08-11, 10:26 AM
#8
You know, I'm going to add to this conversation.
The sensor (b/w) wire on an S4 runs to the battery via the ignition switch. The sensor (b/w) wire on an S5/S6 runs directly to the battery itself.
Since the only time the sensor wire needs to see power is when the ignition is turned on, when doing an S5/S6 alternator to S4 swap, why not simply use the same S4 sensor wire rather than a separate fused connection to the battery?
Qualification, I did the sensor wire direct to the battery modification when I put my S6 alternator into my S4. But after doing so, it seems I no longer have the idiot light notification if the alternator takes a crap.
Hailers??????
The sensor (b/w) wire on an S4 runs to the battery via the ignition switch. The sensor (b/w) wire on an S5/S6 runs directly to the battery itself.
Since the only time the sensor wire needs to see power is when the ignition is turned on, when doing an S5/S6 alternator to S4 swap, why not simply use the same S4 sensor wire rather than a separate fused connection to the battery?
Qualification, I did the sensor wire direct to the battery modification when I put my S6 alternator into my S4. But after doing so, it seems I no longer have the idiot light notification if the alternator takes a crap.
Hailers??????
03-08-11, 10:32 AM
#9
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ok cool. under the trailing coil is FE-03 thats where I have my overlay for when I ran the PFC on the front harness side I had the run it a connector underneath the passanger side of the dash. they disconnected this and left my over lay attached to nothing. so i dont need the power they have hooked up to the relay just the solid power wire the left, that I dont like.
What im going to do is hook up the W/B back up at FE-03 it shoud be an easy resplice together then ill cut and tape up the B/w wire at that connector and run it strait to the b terminal from the alt due to simplicity. now hopefully this will work
would u recommend running it off the fuse?
What im going to do is hook up the W/B back up at FE-03 it shoud be an easy resplice together then ill cut and tape up the B/w wire at that connector and run it strait to the b terminal from the alt due to simplicity. now hopefully this will work
would u recommend running it off the fuse?
03-08-11, 10:38 AM
#11
ok cool. under the trailing coil is FE-03 thats where I have my overlay for when I ran the PFC on the front harness side I had the run it a connector underneath the passanger side of the dash. they disconnected this and left my over lay attached to nothing. so i dont need the power they have hooked up to the relay just the solid power wire the left, that I dont like.
What im going to do is hook up the W/B back up at FE-03 it shoud be an easy resplice together then ill cut and tape up the B/w wire at that connector and run it strait to the b terminal from the alt due to simplicity. now hopefully this will work
would u recommend running it off the fuse?
What im going to do is hook up the W/B back up at FE-03 it shoud be an easy resplice together then ill cut and tape up the B/w wire at that connector and run it strait to the b terminal from the alt due to simplicity. now hopefully this will work
would u recommend running it off the fuse?
Also, ground W/B at FE-03 on the front side of the harness w/key to on and make sure the idiot lights come on to make sure this wire is still connected to the CPU properly in case you needed to check that aspect of the wiring.
03-08-11, 02:23 PM
#15
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So you just ran the inline fuse from the alt+ to the b terminal? sounds pretty good. Which terminal on the alt is positive. I do not have a factory connector they just put terminalled butt connectors on them so I am unaware of which goes where on the alt the terminals on there are labled.
03-08-11, 04:31 PM
#16
Rotary Freak
So you still have a CPU in your car? The CPU is next to your left foot when driving.
I''ve a series five alt in my 87 car. I ran what they call the S wire to the engine bay fuse box. If memory serves I ran it to the bolt in the middle of the rear of that fuse box. That's one of the bolts that holds the MAIN fuse in the box.
What they call the L wire on MY car goes to the original WHITE/Black wire for the alternator on my series four car.
You wiring is not stk, I know that. But no matter. The other end of that White/Black wire ends up at the CPU and goes inside the CPU to the Alt Relay.
Just saying that since you probably still have the CPU in y0ur car.......run a wire from the alt to the CPU and splice it into the WHITE/BLACK wire in the CPU plug. Unfortunatle theres a couple of plugs on the CPU and I forget which plug at the moment.
Listen carefully...............look at your series five alternators small two pin jack. It has two blade terminals in it. The blade that is closest to the LARGE output terminal on the alt is the one called the S terminal and that one needs power 24/7 and like I said, I have mine going to the engine bay fuse box.
The other terminal in that jack should go to the CPU. THAT wire is what causes the excitation of the alternator. One symptom of a alt without that wire connected up is.....the alt will not put out when the engine is started. But if one revs the engine HIGH you'll usually find the alt is now putting out. It has self excited itself. Much like when we watch the Playboy channel toooo much.
Others have run a switched batt voltage to it which I find not the thing to do. Couldnt pay me to do that. Welllllll.....five hundred bucks and I might change my mind.
Now it's story time. I've too many of these cars. One day recently after messing with one of them, for unknown reasons I put my meter on the alt output terminal. Eeek. Nearly fifteen volts. Ah shucks darn. Anyway I noticed I'd pulled off the white/black wire from the alt. Reconnected the same and now the output of the alt was 14.2 give or take.
Ever notice how in the ENGINE ELECTRICAL when checcking out the alt they have you put the key ON engine OFF and backprove the white/black wire with the connector on the alt???????? The result is supposed to be 1-3vdc. The voltage drop is the pwr from the Meter fuse passing thru the alt relays coils. This 1-3 is supposed to be EXCITATION voltage to get the alt up and putting out. Much like Suzy wet pants down the street.
I''ve a series five alt in my 87 car. I ran what they call the S wire to the engine bay fuse box. If memory serves I ran it to the bolt in the middle of the rear of that fuse box. That's one of the bolts that holds the MAIN fuse in the box.
What they call the L wire on MY car goes to the original WHITE/Black wire for the alternator on my series four car.
You wiring is not stk, I know that. But no matter. The other end of that White/Black wire ends up at the CPU and goes inside the CPU to the Alt Relay.
Just saying that since you probably still have the CPU in y0ur car.......run a wire from the alt to the CPU and splice it into the WHITE/BLACK wire in the CPU plug. Unfortunatle theres a couple of plugs on the CPU and I forget which plug at the moment.
Listen carefully...............look at your series five alternators small two pin jack. It has two blade terminals in it. The blade that is closest to the LARGE output terminal on the alt is the one called the S terminal and that one needs power 24/7 and like I said, I have mine going to the engine bay fuse box.
The other terminal in that jack should go to the CPU. THAT wire is what causes the excitation of the alternator. One symptom of a alt without that wire connected up is.....the alt will not put out when the engine is started. But if one revs the engine HIGH you'll usually find the alt is now putting out. It has self excited itself. Much like when we watch the Playboy channel toooo much.
Others have run a switched batt voltage to it which I find not the thing to do. Couldnt pay me to do that. Welllllll.....five hundred bucks and I might change my mind.
Now it's story time. I've too many of these cars. One day recently after messing with one of them, for unknown reasons I put my meter on the alt output terminal. Eeek. Nearly fifteen volts. Ah shucks darn. Anyway I noticed I'd pulled off the white/black wire from the alt. Reconnected the same and now the output of the alt was 14.2 give or take.
Ever notice how in the ENGINE ELECTRICAL when checcking out the alt they have you put the key ON engine OFF and backprove the white/black wire with the connector on the alt???????? The result is supposed to be 1-3vdc. The voltage drop is the pwr from the Meter fuse passing thru the alt relays coils. This 1-3 is supposed to be EXCITATION voltage to get the alt up and putting out. Much like Suzy wet pants down the street.
03-08-11, 04:34 PM
#17
Rotary Freak
I figue you have the CPU 'cause the turn signals go thru there and you probably have turn signals working. I think there is only one WHITE/Black wire going to those plugs. Don't confuse it with a BLACK/WHITE wire.
03-08-11, 04:56 PM
#18
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Hailers you amaze me eveytime.
Thanks to you, I now know why my car wouldnt charge at idle when the car was initially started.
Thanks to satch for telling me why may batteries been dying.
why the **** couldnt these guys do this???
Hailers I know you used the engine fuse for 12v. Can I still run an inline fuse to from the B terminal to the S terminal as my B/w wire?
Im pretty sure I still have the PCM I will route the w/b wire to one at the PCM. yes my trun signals work thats a good sign lol
Thanks to you, I now know why my car wouldnt charge at idle when the car was initially started.
Thanks to satch for telling me why may batteries been dying.
why the **** couldnt these guys do this???
Hailers I know you used the engine fuse for 12v. Can I still run an inline fuse to from the B terminal to the S terminal as my B/w wire?
Im pretty sure I still have the PCM I will route the w/b wire to one at the PCM. yes my trun signals work thats a good sign lol
03-08-11, 06:11 PM
#19
Rotary Freak
Hailers I know you used the engine fuse for 12v. Can I still run an inline fuse to from the B terminal to the S terminal as my B/w wire?
Yep. The series five cars have that S power coming from the single EGI fuse found on those cars......if memory serves. Yeah, just a inline fuse would do fine. Constant 24/7 power.
No. On my 87 with a series five alt I use a fuse going to the main fuse in the engine bay for S power. For the L terminal I use the white/black that comes from the CPU and is powered by the METER fuse. Meter fuse is switched voltage from the key. I don't use the ENGINE fuse on that series four with series five alt.
A stk series four with stk alt uses the ENGINE fuse for the S power and the METER fuse for L power via the alt relay in the CPU. Both switched voltage using the key.
Look for a plug on the CPU near your left foot that has the same number of wires as shown in the attached jpg. One will be W/B and that wire should have voltage on it with key ON.
Yep. The series five cars have that S power coming from the single EGI fuse found on those cars......if memory serves. Yeah, just a inline fuse would do fine. Constant 24/7 power.
No. On my 87 with a series five alt I use a fuse going to the main fuse in the engine bay for S power. For the L terminal I use the white/black that comes from the CPU and is powered by the METER fuse. Meter fuse is switched voltage from the key. I don't use the ENGINE fuse on that series four with series five alt.
A stk series four with stk alt uses the ENGINE fuse for the S power and the METER fuse for L power via the alt relay in the CPU. Both switched voltage using the key.
Look for a plug on the CPU near your left foot that has the same number of wires as shown in the attached jpg. One will be W/B and that wire should have voltage on it with key ON.
08-25-11, 12:40 PM
#20
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so im gonna bring this thread back because I have nothing but issues..
so I have the alt wire as described 30amp inline fuse going from the B+ post to the S terminal
I have the L terminal white and black wired to the white and black at the CPU.
so my issue lies sometime the alt charges and some times doesnt. Im having an issue tuning the car with the inconsistant voltage, I run a haltech. I have removed the alt and brought it to be tested the alt is good.
I have some sort of short somewhere while driving once a while all the idiot lights come on. some times its just the seat belt light but I dont have the stock belts or buckles in the car. ive also noticed that when i turn the car off and the ebrake light is on it takes a while to fade out..
today I removed entire interior I havent gone thru the stock wiring yet cuz i dont kno where to start..
I have battery relocated to the bins, wired it 6 years ago and ran alot of wire and no circuit breakers... im going to rewire it the correct way.
so i currently have the dash out and am wondering where to start is it possible to have the CPU short out?
IDK any help would be greatly appericated
thanks alot
James
so I have the alt wire as described 30amp inline fuse going from the B+ post to the S terminal
I have the L terminal white and black wired to the white and black at the CPU.
so my issue lies sometime the alt charges and some times doesnt. Im having an issue tuning the car with the inconsistant voltage, I run a haltech. I have removed the alt and brought it to be tested the alt is good.
I have some sort of short somewhere while driving once a while all the idiot lights come on. some times its just the seat belt light but I dont have the stock belts or buckles in the car. ive also noticed that when i turn the car off and the ebrake light is on it takes a while to fade out..
today I removed entire interior I havent gone thru the stock wiring yet cuz i dont kno where to start..
I have battery relocated to the bins, wired it 6 years ago and ran alot of wire and no circuit breakers... im going to rewire it the correct way.
so i currently have the dash out and am wondering where to start is it possible to have the CPU short out?
IDK any help would be greatly appericated
thanks alot
James
08-25-11, 02:12 PM
#22
Rotary Freak
Put the key to ON, engine off. Then pull the small plug off the alternator.
With a meter see if there's batt volage on the White/Black wire. Should be there. Now pull the METER fuse in the interior fuse box and make sure that batt voltage goes away with the fuse out. Should.
If the above is so.......then with key on engine off, get a piece of wire and gnd out the White/Black wire at the small alt plug (plug off alternator). All the warning lights should come on when you gnd that wire. So? What happened when doing the above?
With a meter see if there's batt volage on the White/Black wire. Should be there. Now pull the METER fuse in the interior fuse box and make sure that batt voltage goes away with the fuse out. Should.
If the above is so.......then with key on engine off, get a piece of wire and gnd out the White/Black wire at the small alt plug (plug off alternator). All the warning lights should come on when you gnd that wire. So? What happened when doing the above?
08-25-11, 02:20 PM
#23
Of the numerous issues you have you might have a problem with the idiot lights itself. The B/Y wire powered by the Meter fuse powers this unit. How about measuring the voltage output on the B/Y wire at the CPU's largest plug w/key to on as it should read battery voltage. Then turn the key to off as you focus on the voltage reading coming from the B/Y wire and see if it cuts out to zero immediately or if it slowly fades away to zero volts.
Do your idiot lights as normal light up each time you turn the key to on? If a ground was provided to the W/B wire at the CPU (same plug as above) w/key to on do the idiot lights turn on each and everytime the ground is put to the W/B wire and then turn off when the ground is pulled?
What kind of voltage swings are you getting at the alternator? You could measure this voltage via the output wire to provide an accurate reading. And many times an alternator will pass the litmus test at the local auto store, but for all intensive purposes be a dud.
Do your idiot lights as normal light up each time you turn the key to on? If a ground was provided to the W/B wire at the CPU (same plug as above) w/key to on do the idiot lights turn on each and everytime the ground is put to the W/B wire and then turn off when the ground is pulled?
What kind of voltage swings are you getting at the alternator? You could measure this voltage via the output wire to provide an accurate reading. And many times an alternator will pass the litmus test at the local auto store, but for all intensive purposes be a dud.
08-25-11, 02:53 PM
#24
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I had the alt test at rayalco the put it in a machine spun and loaded it in front of me the alt perfromed correctly..
when i turn the key on not all the lights dont come on usually just the ebrake or hatch light if they are open or engaged.. but ramdomly the lights all turn on while driving..
the alt will charge at idle 13.5 hold it then ramdomly drop out it will do this also while driving im abled to veiw the voltage thru dataloging
im going to ground the w/b wire and see if they all light up. if they do would that be an indication of a bad cpu signal? or a grounding issue?
ATM i dont have the dash in the car when i put it back in ill check
when i turn the key on not all the lights dont come on usually just the ebrake or hatch light if they are open or engaged.. but ramdomly the lights all turn on while driving..
the alt will charge at idle 13.5 hold it then ramdomly drop out it will do this also while driving im abled to veiw the voltage thru dataloging
im going to ground the w/b wire and see if they all light up. if they do would that be an indication of a bad cpu signal? or a grounding issue?
ATM i dont have the dash in the car when i put it back in ill check
08-25-11, 04:05 PM
#25
Rotary Freak
The grounding of the white/black was to ensure that the alt relay in the CPU is indeed working like it should. Nothing more than verifying that circuit.
Once the alternator is spinning and putting out the white black wire is not a player anymore as far as the alternator working right or not.
On a stk series four car the white/black wire performs two functions. One is to provide excitation voltage to the alt upon startup. Once the alt is spinning and putting out, the alternator excites itself without the white/black playing any part in the function of the alt.
The other function of the white/black is to provide a gnd to the alt relay in the CPU and pull that relay in if there is low voltage on the white/black or low voltage on that wire. The alt relay will pull in and put a gnd on the warning light unit to make all the bulbs light up.
Sooooo I'm saying that if you can monitor the alt voltage and you see it putting out while the engine is running, and then see the voltage go dramatically down...........it ain't the white/black wire causing that. I'd say the alternaotor is causing that. The regulator in the alt that is.
When you see the voltage go way down.....and then all the warning lights come on the warning unit, that means to me the alt relay has pulled in because the neg side of the alt relay coil has seen lower voltage coming from the alt vs what is seen on the positive side of the alt relays coil, so the alt relay pulls in and puts a gnd on the warning units light bulbs and they all come on.
I'm not real sure what would happen if the white/black wire at the alt touched gnd while the alt is putting out other than turn the warning lights bulbs all on. Seems if it touched gnd then it would also be at the same time grounding the Field windings in the alt.
You might try just depinning the white/black wire and starting the car. IF you rev the engine up quickly to several thousand rpms it should self excite itself and start putting out and keep on putting out as long as the engine is running. Warning lights won't be functional. But anyway, if you try this and the alt keeps on putting out and never drops down to ??? 12vdc and has none of the problems you described, then it seems to me the white/black might be grounding out Somewhere. I've no idea where though.
Once the alternator is spinning and putting out the white black wire is not a player anymore as far as the alternator working right or not.
On a stk series four car the white/black wire performs two functions. One is to provide excitation voltage to the alt upon startup. Once the alt is spinning and putting out, the alternator excites itself without the white/black playing any part in the function of the alt.
The other function of the white/black is to provide a gnd to the alt relay in the CPU and pull that relay in if there is low voltage on the white/black or low voltage on that wire. The alt relay will pull in and put a gnd on the warning light unit to make all the bulbs light up.
Sooooo I'm saying that if you can monitor the alt voltage and you see it putting out while the engine is running, and then see the voltage go dramatically down...........it ain't the white/black wire causing that. I'd say the alternaotor is causing that. The regulator in the alt that is.
When you see the voltage go way down.....and then all the warning lights come on the warning unit, that means to me the alt relay has pulled in because the neg side of the alt relay coil has seen lower voltage coming from the alt vs what is seen on the positive side of the alt relays coil, so the alt relay pulls in and puts a gnd on the warning units light bulbs and they all come on.
I'm not real sure what would happen if the white/black wire at the alt touched gnd while the alt is putting out other than turn the warning lights bulbs all on. Seems if it touched gnd then it would also be at the same time grounding the Field windings in the alt.
You might try just depinning the white/black wire and starting the car. IF you rev the engine up quickly to several thousand rpms it should self excite itself and start putting out and keep on putting out as long as the engine is running. Warning lights won't be functional. But anyway, if you try this and the alt keeps on putting out and never drops down to ??? 12vdc and has none of the problems you described, then it seems to me the white/black might be grounding out Somewhere. I've no idea where though.