thats called flooding, ATF doesnt swell anything it does what trochiod said, replaces lost sealing lubrication. and sounds like you have a leaky injector or something.

 

Thanks to everybody for your help...!
I did buy a good compression tester, and, both rotors read ZERO.but, that was before adding 7 oz. of atf to each rotor- and cranking over a few times, w/ plugs in, throttle open, EGI fuse out- did that 3 or 4 times, a few minutes apart, with the idea of getting it flowing around in there well...

SCCAIT7, I did read a forum on a flooding problem that alot of people have- starting the car for short time, like to move it in a driveway, and it floods and won't start- you might do a search for flooding, and see what comes up- they said to remove the EGI fuse and a spark plug per each rotor and crank the engine til the gas blows out... i don't remember them using atf, though it might help lubricate, it seems that it'd foul the plugs too...

when you said what have you done then, if one rotor runs and the other doesn't? add atf to the non-running rotor and try again? maybe a seal does get stuck- and atf loosens it- but- seems more likely that it's just clearing out excess fuel or something ... too bad we can't see inside these things while they're running to know what's really happening...

trochoid, about the corner seals- they actually rub against the chamber walls? that amazes me-- that it'd hold up at all- EVER! you're certain, there's no metal outside that rubs the walls in there? amazing...

by the way, i've attempted to 'swell' transmission seals, that were leaking before, with a bottle of 'fix-it' stuff- it never worked. if the bearing was worn, the seal was shot, and it'd just leak. this is what i'd think happens to the corner seals... slowly wearing out- but- the original owner of this car is a lawyer- so, i'd doubt he'd drive it around smoking (his other car is a Porsche convertible-) so, if it's any major blowout that destroyed corner seals... ALL of them- or at least more than one- since there's no compression at all- it could've been like the oil injection failing... or oil pressure dropping drastically... hmmm... but it still doesn't seem likely. the oil is clear as can be- (unless somebody chnged it since the original problem...) by the way, you mentioned the rubber oil seals, it seems they must be good then...(?)

so, I didn't do a compression test AFTER putting ATF in- so will try that tomorrow, giving springs a chance to loosen up, etc... I'll let you know what happens...!

Thanks to you all...

 

The major part of a corner seal is metal. There is a small rubber insert that slips in where the ends of the apex seals fit. Most of the motors I have torn down are missing at least half of the plugs. Solid corner seals do not use the rubber inserts.

If you are not getting compression on any rotor face, there is a good chance the seals are stuck, due to carbon build up and the engine sitting. When an engine gets flooded, the raw fuel mixture washes away most of the oil film. This can allow the carbon to harden even more and the seal springs are not strong enough to break the carbon/metal bond.

You might try some Seafoam, it will break down the carbon better than the ATF. All the ATF will do is somewhat soften the carbon. It will not remove or emulsify it with the engine sitting. If nothing else, try the Seafoam, if it still doesn't have enough compression to start, pull/push start it. The higher rpms may give you enough compresiion to get it started, then the ATF or Seafoam can burn out the rest of the carbon.

Make sure your plugs are clean and dry. I usually beadblast a set of slightly used plugs when doing this proceedure. No point in fouling out a new set. Once the the engine is runnig well, install fresh plugs. If you bead blast the plugs, blow them of with compressed air, spray with brake clean, and blow dry with air again.

 

do you know if any of the motors you tore down, with the rubber part defunct ran or not? like, it's a source of leakage, reducing compression, right, but would it still run?

i buy that idea... especially with 15 years of sitting all summer, then driving only in winter, with rich mixture- and being shut off after a few minutes of driving- only 63,000 miles, but with those conditions- i was amazed it even started well enough for him to be happy ...

I did pull it once, about a mile maybe- it blew out the 90 weight gear oil the mechanic before me put in there... BIG clouds o'smoke...all blue i believe-
so, what is Seafoam? a fluid from a parts store? or do i hafta go to the ocean...?

i have an old set, and a new set- but the new ones have been used in attempts to start- they do spark well when out of the engine (and, since the compression's low, maybe inside too) there's definitely beenmore smoke coming out of the exhaust when sprying ether in the intake when cranking- so i believe they fire...i shoot some ether in the end of the plugs and let them dry off, before putting them back in- it appears to take the oil off...

I may have brake clean, definitely have carb cleaner- ... but don't have a sand blaster...

think i should try starting this afternoon then? i can have my friend tow me- (danger, danger, i know...) I'll try the seafoam first- how long should that sit in there first?

Thanks )

 

one other thought...
when i got it, the nut that holds the crank angle sensor tight was off, and placed near the inner fender- which tells me somebody pulled the sensor out- not just adjusted it... otherwise, it'd just be loose. I removed it, looked, and put it back in according to the factory service manual (on CD, from ebay- ) but the timing instructions are very unclear. it says:

Installation:
12. Align the matching mark on the crank angle sensor housing and driven gear.
2.Check that the eccentric shaft pulley is set to the Leading mark.(Yellow mark)
3.Install the sensor and lock bolt.
4. Check the ignition timing. (refer to section 5)
5.Tighten the lockbolt.

problem is- when you line up the marks on the sensor, then slide in back in, it turns when engaging the drive gear inside. do you think that sounds right? i checked it with a timing light, and leading spark comes just before the two marks come up, like 5 degrees before -- so that'd be about TDC... does that sound right? (I can't test it runniong, since it doesn't run - yet...)
hope you're enjoying being the 'doctor' here...)

 

aha, here's a link for seafoam... http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUpTechDiesel.htm

 

so, pour some seafoam into the spark plug holes, crank and let it sit?

 

well, the seafoam's in...at about noon today- Might try towing it tomorrow morning...

 

Welll... here's what happened- my friend towed me- probably about a mile...around the neighborhood- had it spinning up around 4 to 5000RPM, BIG BIG SMOKE, blue. nasty. used the old, wet, blackened plugs. for the first half mile, just about no popping, firing. then, it'd fire at first a few times like pop, pop, pdddpdddpddppddpddd, (lots of pops) but, ONLY when the gas pedal was EXTREMELY LIGHTLY pressed. press hard, like to the floor, and no more popping. let off and only like a smoothe purring sound. but, there was definitely the pops, when light pedal.

Here's the amazing thing. MAJOR, BIG-TIME, DANGEROUS RED HOT BRIGHT ORANGE catalytic converter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Like VERY SCARY - as orange as an electric stove burner on high!!!!

with smoke pouring out all over, I took a floor mat and started fanning under the car, by the converter. it finally cooled off. So, we tried again...!

By the way, this time, there had been a total of 8 oz. of WD 40, almost one quart of ATF, and a pint of Seafoam run through the engine- which must've ended up in the converter. So there was a nearly explosive charge of stuff in there to burn off. Duh. I should've known better- but didn't know what to expect.

So, now I should offer advice... like maybe either disconnect the frontpipe before blowing this stuff out- or maybe don't push/pull as far.- whatever, just know there could be a major fire.

So, if amybody's actually reading this any more- have you ever had this happen, where it'll only fire when light on the gas pedal? I'm guessing it may bhe back to the original problem from back last winter- which seems like it could be fuel starving.

I picked up a cheap cheap filter to stick inline (maybe) where the original metal tubing has been removed and replaced with rubber hose. That'll be next- maybe tomorrow...

by the way, the timing mark was set at just about TDC, tested during cranking, so it seems right...(??)

thanks for listening, and your input...)

 

well, either nobody's reading any more, or you're thinking 'this guy's trying to start a car with old plugs that won't even spark', so there's no chance of it running anyway' that's what I'd probably be thinking, if I read it. At least that's whatI'm thinking now. but...the 'plan' was actually to go around the block once- with the old plugs- then stop, and replace them with fresh plugs. Then, when it started popping... and the engine was hot- and the smoke was finally clearing- I figured there was a good chance the plugs in there will spark anyway, so kept going.

hours later now, I realize I probably should have switched plugs- and increased the chance of it running.

at least now the half gallon of oil crap that's been poured in the chambers SHOULD be out...

now I wonder if the converter might be plugged, or shot. yow.

going back to the popping only when gas pedal is pressed lightly- that's what it did in the very beginning too- trying to start using the starter motor, as if there is one point of air/fuel level that coincides with the specific RPM it's turning- where it will fire... and that's it. OK, the hole in that theory is that when towing, the engine turned a wide range of different speeds 1k to 5k- and firing occurred ONLY at the same level of throttle position.

aha. so, it may be, throttle position sensor is shot. or the CPU. or other sensors. making it not spark except at one setting. or not get gas. or the timing comes at the wrong time. or....

has this stopped being fun for you? I feel like I'm in a room, blindfolded, being asked to perform brain surgery, all the surgeons tools in the room, the patient is there, on a table, but I can't see him. or the tools. and now i don't really know if the patient needs surgery anyway. He might just have a cold. do you read me?

and, are you thinking, man, this guy's 'out there'? well, I am. WAY OUT. and, half intrigued, half pissed. and half no longer interested, but that'd be thirds. and half ready to pull the engine and see what's in there. and half ready to take it to the dealer who has the tools to test with. but nobody's sure that those guys know about or care about a rotary engine running.

so, it appears that I may be at a point where expensive, complicated test equipment may be in order, operated by someone who actually has knowledge and experience to use them.

oh well, it's been fun, the self delusion was a blast, especially if it had started up and ran perfectly again. then I could marched around proudly, thinking 'Ha. Did it again...!' and bragging that I know so much about these odd cars. and feeling as if God himself has empowered me with divine power to 'see the invisible', and Heal. 'laying hands' on a poor, wretched little car that only wanted to run again, and play with the others.

right now, I don't feel like marching, or even walking at a snail's pace. in fact, I'm happy sitting down. and pouring my thoughts into cyberspace. where they are most likely not being read, because I bored the hell out of the reader, who's looking for some knowledge- and comradery among knowledgable and interested people- and I'm here trying to get free help.

truth is, CARS ARE TOO COMPLICATED TODAY. they're not just mechanical anymore. we're counting on SO many things working perfectly, that one thing wrong can throw the whole plan off. like injecting antifreeze for sub-zero starting. and variable resistors on gas pedals. and computers that listen to seven or eight things at once.

I'm using this forum now forwhat it wasn't intended, probably. we all know what I just said is true. maybe.

OK, I'll be reading the damn service manual again, seeing if there's anything about 'firing only at certain throttle settings'. I doubt it.

If you did indeed read this, I invite you to visit my websites, wwwmakermade.com, www.makertools.com, www.thinkofmeever.com - and, if you're ever in western NY, you're very welcome to drop in, drink a beer and tell a couple of RX7 stories...)

 

You know, I'll admit I didnt read all that, but here are some things from my experience of hundreds of 7s, many blown:

these tend to flood a lot. flooding results in low compression as measured on a gauge, not because of any internal damage, just because of loss of the coat of oil that forms compression to begin with. This is usually restored with a few shots of motor oil or atf into the chambers, either via the lower plugholes or the intake runners. Sometimes the stock plugs foul easily and need replaced or they will misfire or not fire at all.

IF an engine suddenly loses power while running, it is not flooded. These engines do not flood while running, they flood when shut off/cranking. Loss of power while running indicates blown apex seals almost always; sometimes youll have an electrical issue such as a big vacuum leak or a bad injector plug or something, but dont plan on that.

There is NO fixing a blown apex motor without taking it apart. Physical damage has been done inside and will not repair itself, no matter how much lubricant is injected. See www.rotaryresurrection.com ---> tech ---> internal engine damage

Generally apex seals blow on one rotor, all 3 at a time (1 breaks, kills the other 2). You will almost never see all the apex seals in the engine blow at once. Sometimes you do see an engine that has sat for a while have STUCK seals which are just as bad, and still require a teardown to repair. Often all the seals stick at the same time, due to either rust, or carbon. This can cause an engine to lock solid, but other times the engine will freespin with almost no compression or resistance.

You CAN get a blown apex motor to start and run, with enough towing, feathering of the throttle, and/or injected lube. ON 89-91 models, playing with the throttle actually cuts and restores fuel injection, which has a flood/deflood effect. Playing with the throttle during cranking this way can help a blown or flooded engine catch and run.

Still, even if this happens, it's obvious that there is a problem if it is blown; it will have no power, rev slowly, vibrate below 2000rpm, refuse to idle below 1200rpm, backfire a lot (due to unburned fuel on the dead rotor going into the hot exhaust and combusting there), glowing exhausts, sound of a lawnmower (due to uneven compression), etc.


I think you are in denial that this engine is done, and tinkering around probably isn't the answer. www.rotaryresurrection.com ---> tech ---> compression check.

Good luck.

 

HAHA!! RELIEF! thank you doctor, for informing me with your apparently tireless investigation of these things...!!

and, thank you to everybody who gave input here- it's been, well, 'fun'. I'm really glad the damn thing didn't catch fire- never saw an exhaust glow like that before....

I will make on or two more tests- but have pretty much conceded to 'engine death, waiting for rebirth'... the car itself has been very well cared for.

can't believe I've been 'bitch-slapped' online- guess I needed it....!!!

Thanks again-

 

did you do a compression test after all the ATF and when u heard poping? (im in a VERY scarily similar situation with my 87)