Need some help with spring rates.
12-15-08, 06:32 PM
#1
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Need some help with spring rates.
Sorry for the noob question -but I'm not really that knowledgeable in the word of suspension... figured I would turn to here for some help.
I ordered Stance AL+ pro coilovers for my FC and I have the option to pick any spring rate I want. They come with 9k front 7k rear, any suggestions on rates or should I just just go with the 9/7k? I plan on drifting and tracking the car, it will see the streets on the weekends and some cruising once in a while.
TIA
I ordered Stance AL+ pro coilovers for my FC and I have the option to pick any spring rate I want. They come with 9k front 7k rear, any suggestions on rates or should I just just go with the 9/7k? I plan on drifting and tracking the car, it will see the streets on the weekends and some cruising once in a while.
TIA
Last edited by sunburn; 12-15-08 at 06:35 PM.
12-16-08, 12:17 AM
#5
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For drifting, fine, for the street use that you stated that you'll be using it for too, too stiff. I'm running 7/5 also and I wounldn't want to go any stiffer.
12-16-08, 06:12 AM
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12-16-08, 03:41 PM
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9/7 is way to stiff for the street, but could be bearable as long as you set the dampers to be pretty soft. And I would venture about as stiff as you would want to go. 500lb/in and 390lb/in - That's stiff. But if you are on a smooth track this would work well as the car won't be disturbed by random bumps and cracks in the track surface. The guys at stance know what they are doing, but they are testing this on very nice tracks (compared to streets or parking lot autocrosses) from the videos I've seen.
But drifting doesn't necessarily mean you have to get rid of your grip to do it, you just need to find a balance where the springs make the car neutral and the response is fast enough that you can control the car properly. If you go with rates that high you will really need a larger anti roll bar front and rear to control the roll of the car properly, those springs will easily over power the stock anti roll bars.
Though this was not intended for a drift based setup... I ordered 7/5 and have now gone to 6/5 which has really balanced the car out towards neutral and made the front end track much better. Driving around on the street is very reasonable with this setup and at the limit the car is quite neutral. Also I'm just using the stock anti roll bars, which really need to be upgraded.
Really with suspension it's all about the balance, especially for drifting where you are beyond the limit all the time.
But drifting doesn't necessarily mean you have to get rid of your grip to do it, you just need to find a balance where the springs make the car neutral and the response is fast enough that you can control the car properly. If you go with rates that high you will really need a larger anti roll bar front and rear to control the roll of the car properly, those springs will easily over power the stock anti roll bars.
Though this was not intended for a drift based setup... I ordered 7/5 and have now gone to 6/5 which has really balanced the car out towards neutral and made the front end track much better. Driving around on the street is very reasonable with this setup and at the limit the car is quite neutral. Also I'm just using the stock anti roll bars, which really need to be upgraded.
Really with suspension it's all about the balance, especially for drifting where you are beyond the limit all the time.
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12-16-08, 05:31 PM
#8
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9/7 is way to stiff for the street, but could be bearable as long as you set the dampers to be pretty soft. And I would venture about as stiff as you would want to go. 500lb/in and 390lb/in - That's stiff. But if you are on a smooth track this would work well as the car won't be disturbed by random bumps and cracks in the track surface. The guys at stance know what they are doing, but they are testing this on very nice tracks (compared to streets or parking lot autocrosses) from the videos I've seen.
But drifting doesn't necessarily mean you have to get rid of your grip to do it, you just need to find a balance where the springs make the car neutral and the response is fast enough that you can control the car properly. If you go with rates that high you will really need a larger anti roll bar front and rear to control the roll of the car properly, those springs will easily over power the stock anti roll bars.
Though this was not intended for a drift based setup... I ordered 7/5 and have now gone to 6/5 which has really balanced the car out towards neutral and made the front end track much better. Driving around on the street is very reasonable with this setup and at the limit the car is quite neutral. Also I'm just using the stock anti roll bars, which really need to be upgraded.
Really with suspension it's all about the balance, especially for drifting where you are beyond the limit all the time.
But drifting doesn't necessarily mean you have to get rid of your grip to do it, you just need to find a balance where the springs make the car neutral and the response is fast enough that you can control the car properly. If you go with rates that high you will really need a larger anti roll bar front and rear to control the roll of the car properly, those springs will easily over power the stock anti roll bars.
Though this was not intended for a drift based setup... I ordered 7/5 and have now gone to 6/5 which has really balanced the car out towards neutral and made the front end track much better. Driving around on the street is very reasonable with this setup and at the limit the car is quite neutral. Also I'm just using the stock anti roll bars, which really need to be upgraded.
Really with suspension it's all about the balance, especially for drifting where you are beyond the limit all the time.
12-16-08, 10:01 PM
#10
CC of L-Squared Shots
Thicker Anti-roll bars as well to help with the "Squirrly" effect helps.
Suspension tuning is about movement of the car. Anything that deals with the movement of anything about the car is part of it. If you ever feel like your adjustments aren't doing anything to help, try adjusting something else!
Suspension tuning is about movement of the car. Anything that deals with the movement of anything about the car is part of it. If you ever feel like your adjustments aren't doing anything to help, try adjusting something else!
12-17-08, 04:41 AM
#11
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Thicker Anti-roll bars as well to help with the "Squirrly" effect helps.
Suspension tuning is about movement of the car. Anything that deals with the movement of anything about the car is part of it. If you ever feel like your adjustments aren't doing anything to help, try adjusting something else!
Suspension tuning is about movement of the car. Anything that deals with the movement of anything about the car is part of it. If you ever feel like your adjustments aren't doing anything to help, try adjusting something else!
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12-17-08, 02:56 PM
#14
I have Tein Super Drifts on my FC which are 8/6. I wouldn't call it comfortable but with the dampers dialed to a soft setting they are bearable. This isn't a DD though, I drive the car like twice a month. I've got the RB front bar, no rear bar, and the handling is excellent. I use it for HPDE, not drifting. The bump and rebound curves on the Super Drift are substantially different than Tein's Flex setup, but a little experimenting with the damper settings made the car very neutral and easy to drive. For track tires I run 225F and 245R BFG-R1s.
12-17-08, 03:02 PM
#15
53.6%/46.4% - Crap!
I will be running 525 lb/in in the front and 375 lb/in in the rear for my spring rates with Koni Sports, but I most likely have slightly more weight in the front than you. I have no idea how it will ride and unfortunately I won't know until it gets warmer so I probably won't be able to help in time, but I will let you know how it goes.
12-17-08, 03:12 PM
#16
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I will be running 525 lb/in in the front and 375 lb/in in the rear for my spring rates with Koni Sports, but I most likely have slightly more weight in the front than you. I have no idea how it will ride and unfortunately I won't know until it gets warmer so I probably won't be able to help in time, but I will let you know how it goes.
we will be about the same.. a 9/7 metric split would be 504 lb/in front and 392 lb/in rear.
I'll post reviews when I get them... my car is going to be "front heavy" soon
12-17-08, 03:23 PM
#17
53.6%/46.4% - Crap!
12-17-08, 09:57 PM
#18
CC of L-Squared Shots
If it's drifting I guess it's fine since the rear-end will bend side-ways a lot; but, you'll notice a huge difference when you try and accelerate out of a corner...
12-17-08, 10:15 PM
#20
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Many, MANY road racers ditch the rear sway bar. It HELPS traction out of the corner to not have it there, since you're not unloading the inside wheel with the sway bar. If your spring rates are set up for it not being there, the car will handle just fine.
12-18-08, 05:50 AM
#21
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Yeah I know people that have tried all sorts of rear sway bar set-ups and at the end of the day running without one always netted better results.
12-18-08, 08:54 AM
#23
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
The springs you're using are probably too soft to control the car properly without a rear sway bar. I certainly wouldn't suggest you bump your rates to 350-400lb rear springs just to not use a sway bar unless it's a track only car though. The **** it, keep experimenting. But like you said above, 9/7 is probably too stiff and from the guys I've spoken too, that's about where they start with rear springs, right in the 350 and above range.
Again, huge difference between a track car and a street car. Street car drivers are going to want springs/shocks that are alot more forgiving for some of the shittier roads. A track car is going to be under more cornering loads over a smoother surface and can benefit from a stiffer spring/shock to deal with the cornering loads while allowing the IRS to be as independant as possible for traction reasons.
Again, huge difference between a track car and a street car. Street car drivers are going to want springs/shocks that are alot more forgiving for some of the shittier roads. A track car is going to be under more cornering loads over a smoother surface and can benefit from a stiffer spring/shock to deal with the cornering loads while allowing the IRS to be as independant as possible for traction reasons.
12-18-08, 08:16 PM
#24
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Also keep in mind that a race car with a stripped out interior will have a lot less weight over the rear than a street car with a full interior, which will affect the handling balance. So a street car might need a rear sway with the same rates as a race car that doesn't.
I'm running 7/5 springs an RB front bar and the stock rear bar with a full interior, roll bar, no AC, no PS and it's ever so slightly understeery.
I'm running 7/5 springs an RB front bar and the stock rear bar with a full interior, roll bar, no AC, no PS and it's ever so slightly understeery.
12-18-08, 09:51 PM
#25
Yep, another vote for no rear swaybar.
I just tried it on the CSP car.
2400lbs
comp bushings, toe elim
16x7.5/16x8 w/ 245/45 RA1
JIC FLT-A2 7/5 rates
The car was very oversteer happy. I think it is the valving of the rear shocks- no matter what you do it oversteered and you had to keep up constant adjustments to keep the rear in line.
Without the rear bar there IS some understeer if I turn in too fast (instead of oversteer), but it seems to be very neutral at the limit and is still driftarific if your inputs are too hard. Feels more like it did with shocks/lowering springs and the rear bar.
The rear seems less harsh in damping at the same setting and the rear tires seem more stable over bumps.
I think the advantages of taking off the swaybar has to do a lot with keeping the rear trailing arms independent in movement (ESPECIALLY with short stroke suspension) and eliminating the binding.
I will try it on the SM2 car as well, though I expect less of a difference due to the spherical bearing swaybar end links on that car that eliminate much binding.
I just tried it on the CSP car.
2400lbs
comp bushings, toe elim
16x7.5/16x8 w/ 245/45 RA1
JIC FLT-A2 7/5 rates
The car was very oversteer happy. I think it is the valving of the rear shocks- no matter what you do it oversteered and you had to keep up constant adjustments to keep the rear in line.
Without the rear bar there IS some understeer if I turn in too fast (instead of oversteer), but it seems to be very neutral at the limit and is still driftarific if your inputs are too hard. Feels more like it did with shocks/lowering springs and the rear bar.
The rear seems less harsh in damping at the same setting and the rear tires seem more stable over bumps.
I think the advantages of taking off the swaybar has to do a lot with keeping the rear trailing arms independent in movement (ESPECIALLY with short stroke suspension) and eliminating the binding.
I will try it on the SM2 car as well, though I expect less of a difference due to the spherical bearing swaybar end links on that car that eliminate much binding.