na motor or t2 motor?
01-31-03, 03:54 AM
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na motor or t2 motor?
i have a 88 na fc that doesnt run. whats the best way to go? i want to build a high hp engine. is it better for me to buy a t2 motor then take it apart and build it for high boost and power? or is it a better idea to just go ahead and spend that money for the t2 turbo and take apart and build my stock na motor that doesnt run right now for high boost and power?
if i go with the motor i got in it now i can go ahead and use that money to get bigger fuel injectors, 3mm seals, and diff rotors right? can i go and get all the parts necessary for a high hp turbo set up and turbo the na motor using the stock intake manifold? what if i get the na intake manifold and get it ported? woulld that be just as good as the t2 intake manifold?
i want to have around 350 whp. so my question is, is it worth it to buy the t2 motor even if im going to have to take it apart and build it for high boost? or should i just save the money and build the motor i got in it now for high boost?
sorry if these questions seem stupid. im a noob when it comes to this car. thnx for any help u guyz can give.
if i go with the motor i got in it now i can go ahead and use that money to get bigger fuel injectors, 3mm seals, and diff rotors right? can i go and get all the parts necessary for a high hp turbo set up and turbo the na motor using the stock intake manifold? what if i get the na intake manifold and get it ported? woulld that be just as good as the t2 intake manifold?
i want to have around 350 whp. so my question is, is it worth it to buy the t2 motor even if im going to have to take it apart and build it for high boost? or should i just save the money and build the motor i got in it now for high boost?
sorry if these questions seem stupid. im a noob when it comes to this car. thnx for any help u guyz can give.
01-31-03, 07:02 AM
#3
If you want high boost and high power, there is no point even bothering with an NA engine. Don't even consider it!
What's that? You can turbo the NA engine? Well yes you can, guys have done it successfully, but it is still an inferior engine to the TII. I don't consider 15 psi or 275 rwhp high power!!
Don't get 3mm apex seals. 2mm are better. Many people have proven that 2mm seals won't break from sheer HP till over 1200 rwhp. Lots of guys running around 25psi still use stock mazda 2mm seals. They are the best. Read the super duper crazy long thread in the Rotary Performance section entitiled "2mm vs 3mm Apex Seals" or something along those lines.
Get the rebuild done with all stock seals and gaskets. Have a streetport done to the engine at the time of rebuild. There are other options which are good to get done also for reliability and longevity such as increasing the oil jets flow.
Head over to the Rotary Performance and Single Turbo forums and do some searching in there.
What's that? You can turbo the NA engine? Well yes you can, guys have done it successfully, but it is still an inferior engine to the TII. I don't consider 15 psi or 275 rwhp high power!!
Don't get 3mm apex seals. 2mm are better. Many people have proven that 2mm seals won't break from sheer HP till over 1200 rwhp. Lots of guys running around 25psi still use stock mazda 2mm seals. They are the best. Read the super duper crazy long thread in the Rotary Performance section entitiled "2mm vs 3mm Apex Seals" or something along those lines.
Get the rebuild done with all stock seals and gaskets. Have a streetport done to the engine at the time of rebuild. There are other options which are good to get done also for reliability and longevity such as increasing the oil jets flow.
Head over to the Rotary Performance and Single Turbo forums and do some searching in there.
01-31-03, 08:14 AM
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i understand that the t2 motor is superior the na motor. but my question is wouldnt it be more cost effective to just build the na motor up for lots of power instead of buying the t2 motor, then taking everything out of it and building it up for that same power?
the reason i ask is cuz i can buy a 88 fc na manual for 200 dollars. it already has a motor it just doesnt run. i just figured that it would maybe be more cost effective if i went ahead and put everything in that motor that i would probably end up putting in the t2 motor anyway. such as bigger injecters low compression rotors and so on.
im by no means a expert when it comes to these cars. but i have a frend that that has a 94 240 and he just built the ka motor instead of swapping it out for a sr20. the reason he did this is cause, if he got the sr20 motor he would just end up taking everything out of it and putting in new pistons and all the goodie internals. so he just went ahead and did all that to the ka and he is boosting 22 lbs. he says he saved alot of money doing it that way. he built his own turbo set up and everything. thats what lead me to believe that it may be the same with my situation.
thnx on the info about the 2mm seals. is there anyone who can answer my questions in alittle more detail?
the reason i ask is cuz i can buy a 88 fc na manual for 200 dollars. it already has a motor it just doesnt run. i just figured that it would maybe be more cost effective if i went ahead and put everything in that motor that i would probably end up putting in the t2 motor anyway. such as bigger injecters low compression rotors and so on.
im by no means a expert when it comes to these cars. but i have a frend that that has a 94 240 and he just built the ka motor instead of swapping it out for a sr20. the reason he did this is cause, if he got the sr20 motor he would just end up taking everything out of it and putting in new pistons and all the goodie internals. so he just went ahead and did all that to the ka and he is boosting 22 lbs. he says he saved alot of money doing it that way. he built his own turbo set up and everything. thats what lead me to believe that it may be the same with my situation.
thnx on the info about the 2mm seals.
is there anyone who can answer my questions in alittle more detail?
01-31-03, 08:50 AM
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so wait. your saying that i would spend as much if not less money buying a t2 motor and building it up instead of building up the motor i already got? i want about 350 hp to the wheels if not more.
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01-31-03, 09:15 AM
#8
You got it. The NA engine requires EXTENSIVE modifications to make 350 rwhp, even if you turbo it.
The turbo 13B engine has 4 inlet ports... 2 per rotor. The NA 13B engine has 6 inlet ports... 2 of them are controlled by butterfly valves and remain closed at low rpm and open at high rpm. The key to making power on a rotary is letting it breath - porting the engine. It is hard to port a 6-port engine well for performance.
Whenever someone asks about turboing an NA, 99% of the replies will suggest to sell the NA and buy the TII since it will end up cheaper in the end, and have a better car in the end. This doesn't really apply to you though, but it gives an idea of how much of a hassle and costly it can be to turbo an NA.
I think you can do it for $8,000 no problem at all! You don't have to buy the very best name brand parts all brand new straight from the manufacturer!
Complete components to rebuild a 13B rotary engine will cost about $450-$600. You can pick up a Jspec (aka JDM) TII engine which comes complete with all accessories on it for $800-$1000. These engines are generally good used engines with under 30k miles on them (or so they claim) and come with a 30 day warranty. If you want (and I suggest) you can spend the money to rebuild it while you are at it.
This engine will bolt into the NA drivetrain, but the NA drivetrain is not strong enough to support 350 rwhp. You will need to buy a TII drivetrain. Pick one up at a junkyard for under $500 for complete drivetrain.
The only major thing left to buy now is an engine management system to control the engien. The imported turbo engine comes with a cut in 1/2 wiring harness, so you can't use the stock one. You could buy a stock harness/ecu and put that in... but it is extremely complicated and you can't really do that anyway if you plan on making big power like you say.
I suggest the Mircotech LTX-8 ems for your application. There is a group buy going on right now for $600 which includes the full kit and new coils also. Great deal and this system is fully flexible so no matter what mods you ever do in the future, you can reprogram the system so it works. The only thing is with this you will have to get someone to program it for you.
Basically the run down for a rebuilt TII engine/drivetrain swap with an EMS system all ready for tuning would be:
$950 - Engine
$500 - Rebuild Components
$600 - Mircrotech LTX-8 EMS
$500 - TII Drivetrain
= $2550 total
Other things will be needed though of course for when you want to up the performance. What's above is just what you need to basically have a TII with an EMS... ready to mod!
The things you will need for 350 rwhp will include: front mount intercooler and piping, upgraded turbocharger (such as a T04E), boost controller, blow off valve, exhaust manifold and wastegate, fuel injectors, fuel pump, all the necessary gauges, exhaust system, intake system, etc. All this is what will jack up the price more than anything! It will be dependant on what parts you want to buy, which parts you can buy new or used, and stuff like that. Look to spend anywhere from $1000-$5000 for this stuff.
Either way... $8000 will do it! If not, join the "I spend money like a 3rd Gen owner" club
The turbo 13B engine has 4 inlet ports... 2 per rotor. The NA 13B engine has 6 inlet ports... 2 of them are controlled by butterfly valves and remain closed at low rpm and open at high rpm. The key to making power on a rotary is letting it breath - porting the engine. It is hard to port a 6-port engine well for performance.
Whenever someone asks about turboing an NA, 99% of the replies will suggest to sell the NA and buy the TII since it will end up cheaper in the end, and have a better car in the end. This doesn't really apply to you though, but it gives an idea of how much of a hassle and costly it can be to turbo an NA.
I think you can do it for $8,000 no problem at all! You don't have to buy the very best name brand parts all brand new straight from the manufacturer!
Complete components to rebuild a 13B rotary engine will cost about $450-$600. You can pick up a Jspec (aka JDM) TII engine which comes complete with all accessories on it for $800-$1000. These engines are generally good used engines with under 30k miles on them (or so they claim) and come with a 30 day warranty. If you want (and I suggest) you can spend the money to rebuild it while you are at it.
This engine will bolt into the NA drivetrain, but the NA drivetrain is not strong enough to support 350 rwhp. You will need to buy a TII drivetrain. Pick one up at a junkyard for under $500 for complete drivetrain.
The only major thing left to buy now is an engine management system to control the engien. The imported turbo engine comes with a cut in 1/2 wiring harness, so you can't use the stock one. You could buy a stock harness/ecu and put that in... but it is extremely complicated and you can't really do that anyway if you plan on making big power like you say.
I suggest the Mircotech LTX-8 ems for your application. There is a group buy going on right now for $600 which includes the full kit and new coils also. Great deal and this system is fully flexible so no matter what mods you ever do in the future, you can reprogram the system so it works. The only thing is with this you will have to get someone to program it for you.
Basically the run down for a rebuilt TII engine/drivetrain swap with an EMS system all ready for tuning would be:
$950 - Engine
$500 - Rebuild Components
$600 - Mircrotech LTX-8 EMS
$500 - TII Drivetrain
= $2550 total
Other things will be needed though of course for when you want to up the performance. What's above is just what you need to basically have a TII with an EMS... ready to mod!
The things you will need for 350 rwhp will include: front mount intercooler and piping, upgraded turbocharger (such as a T04E), boost controller, blow off valve, exhaust manifold and wastegate, fuel injectors, fuel pump, all the necessary gauges, exhaust system, intake system, etc. All this is what will jack up the price more than anything! It will be dependant on what parts you want to buy, which parts you can buy new or used, and stuff like that. Look to spend anywhere from $1000-$5000 for this stuff.
Either way... $8000 will do it! If not, join the "I spend money like a 3rd Gen owner" club
01-31-03, 09:17 AM
#9
Oh, by the way. When the engine is rebuilt you would need to streetport it. That is basically enlarging the intake ports on the inside of the engine if you didnt know this. Simple to do if you have a template to follow. All you need is a template ($30) and Dremol type rotary grinder ($60).
Just for your information, which an upgraded turbocharger on a streetported 13B, you will need to run about 10-15 psi to make 350 rwhp. All depends on the exact setup and how well it's tuned.
Just for your information, which an upgraded turbocharger on a streetported 13B, you will need to run about 10-15 psi to make 350 rwhp. All depends on the exact setup and how well it's tuned.
02-01-03, 01:31 AM
#10
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thanx so much for the help bridgeported! im all hyped now to get this project started. i pic up the fc 2morrow. my fren already located a front windsheild for me cause the one on the car has a big crack on it.
02-01-03, 03:25 AM
#11
Just remember though, that is my advice. Other people may tell you different things, others may say the same stuff. I will stand by what I said no matter what.
Good to get multiple opinions on it before you get too into it anyway.
I hope it all goes well - I know you can do it and you definitely have the money and ambition to pull it off.
Take pics!
Good to get multiple opinions on it before you get too into it anyway.
I hope it all goes well - I know you can do it and you definitely have the money and ambition to pull it off.
Take pics!
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