RXster

Here's something to consider if you're thinking about changing your retractable headlights to the ricey looking ones that are up all the time. FYI…I hold several laser patents and am an inventor.

The most reflective part of the 2nd gen RX is the headlight and the front license plate if your state requires one. The operator’s manual for the laser speedgun tells the cop to aim for the license plate. If your state doesn’t have one, then he aims for the headlight. If they are retracted, he goes for a paint or turn signal reflection. Some states now paint their tags with paint that is highly reflective at the lasers wavelength. If your state requires a front tag, get a laser tag cover because these will absorb the laser light rather than reflect it.

Red paint is very reflective
Black paint is pretty stealthy

Having said all this I just got nailed with a laser and fought it in court. 1100 ft, 61mph, laser speedgun, red car, headlights retracted. Why did I fight it? Because I’ve won tickets before (unit was out of calibration by one day) and this time I thought I could win against a non technical cop.

I found an error in the FL statute that contradicts the laser operator’s manual. During my cross exam in court, I got the cop to admit he aligns the laser per the statute and not the manual. He also admitted there was a discrepancy. I still lost because the judge asked me “does this mean all tickets written (laser) in the state of FL have this issue?” Of course they do your honor. I lost because she did not want to set a precedent case. I should have appealed and requested a jury trial, but I really don’t have the time to go through all this. The legal system is so slow it would take way too much time.

Even though I lost, you should all fight a speeding ticket. You can at least get the points thrown out and go to school if you take it to court. You don’t need an attorney. Just dress well and be very respectful in front of the judge and cop. Use English.

Here are some resource links below. Remember….
1. Be really nice to the cop while he is writing your ticket. If he’s annoyed and thinks you are going to fight it, he will keep notes to be used against you in court.
2. Never admit verbally to speeding. He will write this in his notes.
3. Ask to see the speed and distance he nailed you at and the manufacturer and model of the laser or radar gun. Write it down. Look for a manufacturers calibration sticker on the unit and note the date.
4. Ask to see the calibration records for that unit. Make sure the numbers match. One cop tried to deceive the judge in one of my cases. He quickly passed the calibration report by the judge hoping she wouldn’t look at it. I did look at it and it was out of cal by one day (required every 6 months in FL). Case dismissed.
5. You can request the officers notes, relevant statutes and the calibration records prior to trial. All you have to do is send a cert mail to the police dept (addressed to the cop). Title the letter “Request for Discovery” and ask for the information. The book by Nolo has a form letter in it.

Inspired me to fight my ticket...
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caran...ture_laser.xml

The company that makes the laser speed gun
http://www.lasertech.com/

Here's a few sites worth looking at
http://www.motorists.org/issues/tickets/

http://www.angelfire.com/ok/neurofeedback/speedtic.html

Excellent book on fighting a speeding ticket. Well worth the $19. Gives you form letters and what to say in front of the judge.
http://www.nolo.com/

C. Ludwig

iTrader: (27)

Thanks, that's very interesting. I've fooled with radar alot when I used to race jetskis. We used radar guns alot to tune with. I was always amazed at how easy they were to fool and how hard it was to be consistent witht them. Guess laser might work the same way?

Always had two questions about laser too. Maybe you can answer. 1) How is laser effected by rain? Would a steady rain refract the beam enoughto make it inaccurate? 2) How do cops aim the laser at night? It would seem that a night vision scope would be required to find the target area. Just curious.

Chris

RXster

They use a scope day or night because they are targeting so far away and need to pick a particular spot on your car. The advantage of a laser is the beam size compared to conventional radar. At 1000 ft. the beam is 3 ft. diameter, so they can precisely place it on your car. You probably won't see much use at night, but theoretically it would still work fine if he can see where it is sighted (difficult in the dark). With conventional radar (microwaves) they simply point it down the road and because the beam is so large they don't have to worry about where it is pointed.

Yes, this frequency is effected by rain. It will absorb. How much depends on the amount of rain. The laser speedgun sends out a numerous pulses of light and the way it works is by receiving these pulses back into a receiver. It receives reflected light pulses and measures the shift in time (transit vs. return) to calculate speed. It sends out a lot of pulses for accuracy. A certain number must fall within an acceptable window. If they do, the speedgun display will readout the speed and distance. If rain interferes, it will not be able to acquire a target.

copandengr

Quite possibly you are referring to a first or second generation gun. I am a police officer, and not only do I use a LIDAR daily I also instruct the radar courses used for police certification. You can bet one thing, I know whereof I speak.

LIDAR stands for LIght Detection And Ranging. LIDAR is very simple. It is merely a DISTANCE measuring device. When the officer pushes the trigger, it takes a measurement. A few microseconds later it takes another measurement. The internal computer then calculates the target speed based on the distance traveled between the two pulses.

I really enjoy playing cat and mouse with the drivers who think their expensive countermeasure devices work. Take my word for it. Not a SINGLE one of these things are worth a damn against a third gen LIDAR unit. The beam is too narrow and the time required is too little for any effective countermeasure. While a license plate or headlight is sometimes preferred, the windshield works just as well, if not better in many cases.

All the license plate covers, retracted headlights, nose bras and jammers are usless. Believe me. I have written well over 1000 citations with this device and have yet to lose a case in court. In Arkansas the LIDAR has already had a test case and was given Judicial Notice. This means that the LIDAR itself cannot be challenged based on unproven technology. As far as calibration is concerned, in Arkansas anyway, all that an officer need do to check the device for proper operation is measure a known distance. If the indicated readout is correct, the device is assumed to be accurate.

I can truthfuly and honestly say that LIDAR is much more fair than RADAR. With a LIDAR unit, the officer places an illuminated holographic "red dot" that is projected onto the scope over the intended target. Squeeze the trigger and in about one tenth of a second at 1,000 feet or less you have a readout of the distance and speed. The officer knows which vehicle is speeding because it was the one targeted. With RADAR the return will be either the strongest reflected signal, or the one with the greatest Doppler shift. In a crowded interstate for instance, it is very difficult to pick out which vehicle is actually doing the speeding. This may lead to an officer making a mistake as to who the speeder was. Not so with LIDAR. Who you target is who you get.

RXster

I agree there really aren't any good countermeasures. Some buy you acquisition time which was the jist of my post. Why put a retroreflector on your car making it an easy target at > 1000 ft? Let's make it a little more difficult for you! The headlight covers do work, but if robocop can't get a signal, he'll likely try another part of the car. All you can hope for is to see brake lights and slow down.

I would be really surprised if you got a return off of a windshield since it's not at normal incidence to the beam. Are you sure the 3 ft. dia beam isn't hitting something else like the front grill of the car?

FYI.... I agree the jammers don't work. The jammers beam would need to shine directly into the laser receiver optics and this is nearly impossible. I could build one that would really jam your device but it would cost a lot and be pretty large. I think it's also illegal to transmit per CDRH regs. I've been thinking about it though....maybe one large enough to fry it....hmmm

You should still fight your ticket in court! There are procedures you must follow every day and if you happen to be out of cal, not show up in court or not follow the alignment instructions at the beginning and end of your shift, the case can get thrown out.

If it doesn't get thrown out, at least you can get your points thrown out in many cases.

FYI... the red hologram you describe is likely a diode laser. Don't put it in your eye!

Happy hunting. I don't plan to visit AR.

XimbueX

One of the bad things about the retractable headlights on the RX7 is that they stay facing forward when they are retracted (hence the FTP feature) unlike the 240sx and similar cars. I've heard that this maes them just as bad for reflecting when they are retracted.

As for getting the cop to admit that they didn't calibrate their radar gun improperly or admitting any wrongdoing, most cops I've seen are self rightous enough to lie in court before they would admit any wrongdoing.

RxSeven1

iTrader: (2)

hey copend.....would u ever cite a fellow rx7 owner?

HOZZMANRX7

iTrader: (43)

I think I can guess the answer to THAT question.

rx7_ragtop

Good information. BTW "assumed" may be a legal issue...

Quote:

I can truthfuly and honestly say that LIDAR is much more fair than RADAR. With a LIDAR unit, the officer places an illuminated holographic "red dot" that is projected onto the scope over the intended target. Squeeze the trigger and in about one tenth of a second at 1,000 feet or less you have a readout of the distance and speed. The officer knows which vehicle is speeding because it was the one targeted. With RADAR the return will be either the strongest reflected signal, or the one with the greatest Doppler shift. In a crowded interstate for instance, it is very difficult to pick out which vehicle is actually doing the speeding. This may lead to an officer making a mistake as to who the speeder was. Not so with LIDAR. Who you target is who you get.

BTW what about Laser (LIDAR) jammers? They aren't illegal- they're not regulated by the FCC. The question is, do they work?

Brad

t_mak@mail.plymouth.edu

Just on a side note, I personally dont think you should worry about getting a ticket in the rain. I dont know if you notice, but cops usually dont wait around in the rain trying to catch you. For one they know you will go a little slower. #2, they know that the guns will not be as effective and #3 They aint going to get themselves wet over a 100 dollar speeding ticket...

DroptopRX7

iTrader: (12)

Couple of observations about the previous posts.
I agree with the first poster; go to court, use proper English and fight the ticket. You won't have much luck with the cop on the road. He's doing what his chief or the municipality has ordered him to do. Essentially a drone in uniform. No offense meant.
Proper enforcement is truly active where the officer is seen in the traffic stream and is setting the example, not sitting on the side of the road, waiting for someone to violate the speed limit. That is simply a means for the municipality to add to its tax base. Sad but true. Stay out of Arkansas. (Aren't they famous for somebody else as well?)
As to the officer who spoke about LIDAR, remember he is an instructor and probably highly qualified. His students usually don't have that degree of training which is a fungible talent. Just like their weapons training, its a fungible talent... but lets not get into that. The municipality just does not have the funds to keep them trained. Therefore, the students are more likely to make a mistake on the road than the instructor is. That's where you come in!
Battle the ticket in court.
One other point, pay for an attorney to represent you (not self serving at all). I say that because the officer usually has a chip on their shoulder. They issued the ticket and no one wants to be told they are wrong, no matter what they say. Your attorney will deal with the district attorney and the judge, not the officer directly. The system doesn't want your troublesome case taking its time. They want it plea bargained away to get to the real issues.
Ralf W., Esq.

gr0undz3r0

Cops Lie..............
thats all I am gonna say before I go FULL FSKIN RANT MODE.......
calm down...
calm down.......
whew.. OK

DroptopRX7

iTrader: (12)

They're just like anyone else who is given a gun, a badge, some training and the ability to do it the easy way or the hard way...is it more difficult to sit on the side of the road measuring speed and then tearing out of your spot, terrorizing traffic and endangering other motorists with your high speed antics, or to drive with traffic encouraging lawful behavior by your example and presence.
No, absolute power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Some are good and some bad, just like anyone else.
Some are actually decent without a chip on their collective shoulder!

HOZZMANRX7

iTrader: (43)

Drop top,

Dead on. Only problem is, here in local California the only ones at court for trial is the judge and the cop. No comparatively unbiased DA to deal with.

An out to remember is that the cop must present a copy of a valid road speed survey in court per state Speed Trap laws. When he does, ask to see it. If its over 5 years old, you can suggest to the officer where it might best be filed (read stuffed) as it is expired, automatic dismissal. Also, if the posted speed is under the "85th percentile" and the cop doesn't have the section from the survey that justifies the posted speed being under that benchmark, that should be a case dismissed also for lack of evidence.

There is also an ongoing debate about if the car is plainly marked (read black & white vs. all white with decals). DMV speed trap codes say the car must be plainly marked as "required by the commissioner" who is the Commissioner of the Highway Patrol. The Highway Patrol manual clearly states that the car must be Black & White to use Radar. Even if the manual didn't say so, argument can be made that a white car with light bar could easily be confused with a private security car or one of those cars that escort wide loads down the freeway. Anyway, if other than a Black and White is used, Speed Trap laws should render cop incompetent as a witness so case should be dismissed for lack of evidence.

Unfortunately, the "system" favors grinding you away rather than deal with fair protections.

The problem is I've found that local judges are biased to the point of finding you guilty anyway Once even suggesting to me to appeal his decision, which I did. Appeal process is a MAJOR major hassle (I'm not an attorney but bought the book), but did it and won. But, went to court under simular circumstances, laid it all out as before but found guilty anyway. Unfortunately, this time life demands didn't allow me the time to go through the appeal process to get it reversed again. So unfair as it was, in this case the "Grinding System" won.

DroptopRX7

iTrader: (12)

The speed laws in California are truly wild and varied. In Illinois for instance, you can't give a speeding ticket within X number of feet of a speed limit sign. Its these little nuances that make the process interesting. My mother finds all these little intricacies and uses them repeatedly (AKA lead foot)

Now, one other interesting observation. Officers don't give tickets to each other due to "Professional Courtesy". As they prepare to show their license, they accidentally show their shield. Great system isn't it? So fairly administered (sarcasm). Car & Driver went into a lot of this with their Officer Bob who usually responded in the Letters section.

I'm not up on CA law, but my question in CA would be, if there is no DA, who is representing the Government, who is prosecuting, examining, cross examining, etc?

By the way, laser was used in OK also. Officer sitting on the side of the road. Had him on my Valentine One though because he was checking on traffic ahead of me and the Valentine was definitely lighting up in Laser detection mode several different times. I did not think that was possible and I've never seen that before.

copandengr

Yes, some cops lie. While a citation and the subsequent appearance in court may be unique to you, remember the cop is there every week. Getting caught in a lie just once will destroy any credibility a cop has with the judge from then on out. I sometimes have to testify about rape, muggings, DWI and drug interdiction. I am not going to lie and risk my credibility for a traffic ticket, or anything else for that matter. My honesty and integrity are all I have.

LIDARs are not used in the rain. The raindrops reflect the laser light back to the device in an irregular manner and it will invariably give the operator an error code. You are right in assuming cops do not like to get wet. It costs a lot on money a year to keep my uniforms clean. Road side spray from traffic will really mess one up. I can tell you from experience though, most all of the fatals I have worked on the interstate have been in inclement weather.

I know most folks think we are merely revenue raisers. Believe it or not, we are more concerned about safety. Do you want your family on the same road as an 80,000lb big truck running 25 or 30 over the limit? I think not. Also, a large percentage of the time when a driver is way over the limit, say 30 plus, you will find an intoxicated driver there. Funny, but drunks always either speed like hell or drive 25 under the limit.

My own personal limit for writing citations is 15 over. This translates around here to a speed of 80 or better (65MPH limit) In the 70 limit area, this would be 85. Most of the traffic is running 8 to 10 over. Keeping up with the flow is no problem for me but running your own personal Indy 500 creates a problem for others, and I WILL write you. There is always some ******* who thinks his time is much more valuable than the rest of us. You know the type. They drive on the shoulder around traffic blockages, and then expect you to let them in when they get to the end of the area. These people are unwittingly blocking the emergency access for fire and rescue equipment.

I hate to write a nice guy a citation. I personally do not usually make up my mind on writing a ticket until after I talk to the driver. A jerk is gonna get a hard copy every time. Attitude is everything. You are free to comment on my ancestry, or anything else, but it is gonna cost you. As I often say, "Thank you for your co-operation sir. Press hard, you are makin five copies. "

One last thing. I know this is abut getting tickets, but remember that the cop who is writing you has most likely had his *** beaten once or twice trying to arrest some one who resisted. If you wany to make a good impression right off the bat, here is what you need to do;

If you are stopped at night, turn on your interior light and keep your hands in plain view, preferably out of the window. Keep your passengers from fidgiting and please keep them quite. This is between the officer and the driver. Any comments from the peanut gallery just make matters worse. Remember, when you are stopped you are under arrest. Arrest is merely the act of impeding the progress or freedom of someone. The officer may pat down ANY one in the car. One of your passengers got a little dope on them? Guess where it os going before he gets out of the car. That's right, under your seat. Guess who is going to jail? Right again. You are. After the officer asks you for you license, then get it. At night I can't tell as I am walking up to the car if you are digging for a gun or your license. If you point something at me that resembles a weapon then the **** is gonna hit the fan.

By the way, the beam width on a third gen LIDAR unit is approx. 1 foot wide at 1500 feet. It is a very low power LASER diode and is invisible. The manual states that in order to damage your eyes, you would have to stare at it for 10,000 hours. Not very likely to happen.

Another thing, there is no such thing as moving LIDAR. The patrol unit MUST be parked to operate it. Radar can be used moving, and is often better served in a moving unit. All of our interstate cars are clearley marked, the only exception being the drug dog cars.

Pay attention, drive sanely and live to enjoy another day. Take your rex to a deserted area to enjoy it. Better yet, go to a track.

And no, I have never stopped another rex on the road, let alone written one. There just ain't that many of them around here.

TBoost

I like your comments and they are very true. However, you boast a little much on the LIDAR technology. Since it is recording distance and time (the variables needed for obtaining speed and its derivative acceleration), the LIDAR WILL become inaccurate if the car at which you cast the beam is on any hill, or moving around a corner. Of course, you probably already knew that..

rx7_turbo2

Those are both good things to hear. I have been given two warnings, both resulted from an itelligent conversation with the officer. The first was an explanatin I was simply following the flow of traffic, and the second was on a deserted road that had been freshly paved and I explained I was giving the car a bit of a boot on the fresh ashphalt (he chuckled).

vaughnc

Props to copandengr,

Most large cities have really good policies of traffic enforcement. Atlanta's police and GA Hwy Patrol have their priorities straight and nail drunks, dangerous drivers, school zone speeder, and tractor trailers doing 80 in a 65 zone.

It's the smaller towns and poorer cities that use the police as revenue generators (see the recent AAA articles on the florida towns).

You won't see "sneeky" police in Atlanta. Props to county and state officials. Now if we could just enforce smog control.

BTW - GA only puts "red light runner" cams in places that have major fatalities or lots of accidents" - props to that policy as well.

XimbueX

Rear end collisions increase at red light camera locations because drivers slam on their brakes erratically. Most of the time due to the fact that the towns that install these cameras also decrease the time duration for the yellow light at the same time of installation to insure more cash flow.

You can damn all the props to that!

copandengr

There was a statement in a previous post about the LIDAR or RADAR being inaccurate when a vehicle is negotiating a curve or hill. In any position whene the vehicle is not coming perfectly straight at the patrol unit there is always an angle involved.

All manuals mention this. This is called angle of incidence. It is a very small error at any angle less than 15 degrees off. The most important thing about the angle of incidence is it ALWAYS, repeat ALWAYS, favors the motorist. Think of the relative closing speed between the target and the patrol unit. Straight on the closing speed indicated will be the speed of the target. At an extreme angle though it is different. Imagine it this way; I am sitting in a parking lot 50 feet off the roadway. If I hit your car when you are nearly straight in front of me the RADAR or LIDAR will only register the RELATIVE closing speed, not the actual speed of the vehicle. At a perfect 90 degrees in front of the patrol unit, the closing speed would be near zero no matter what the target's actual speed.

I forgot to mention a couple of things previously. In Arkansas at least, all police officers working with either LIDAR or RADAR MUST be certificated by the state and MUST carry this certificate with them and are required to present it if asked. This DOES NOT include any type of certification papers or the like for the LIDAR or RADAR unit itself. These certification documents are kept in the police department files and are available only through subpoena.

The LIDAR unit must be checked at the beginning of each shift, and the time and location noted on the officer's shift log. RADAR units must be checked in the same manner, though with tuning forks. There are two forks, a 35 MPH and 50MPH. These forks are serial numbered and may only be used with the RADAR to which they are assigned to.

I can say that all of us make mistakes, and I have let many motorists go because I was not absolutely sure the offender was that particular driver. Most all cops are this way. Once again, there are rogue cops in speed traps that are the exception. If you suspect a speed trap is being operated in your area, call the state police. It is their job to stop this sort of thing. Here in Arkansas, a town is considered a speed trap by law if more than 25% of its operating revenue is generated from trafic tickets, OR more than 25% of the citations written are for 10 over or less.

Happy Motoring All.

MasteRX

What exactly is considered a "sped trap"?

copandengr

A speed trap would be any road where the police (usually city cops) maintain a constant presence and prefer to cite drivers who do not live in the area.

It is usuallly a small town, and the speed limit drops from cruising speed to some low figure without miuch warning. Say from 70 to 45 all of a sudden. The police in these traps are noted for having no tolerance. They write tickets for less than ten miles per hour over the limit on a frequent basis.

Arkansas law considers a town a speed trap if it generates more than 25 percent of its total revenue from speeding tickets, OR if more than 25 percent of the tickets written are for 10 MPH over or LESS. If this happens, the Arkansas State Police will take action to shut the town's trap down. They have done just that in a town called Gilmore, AR near here.

Look up "speed traps" on the web. You will find a few sites listing the more infamous traps nationwide. Sad to say, but there are more than a few in Arkansas.

HOZZMANRX7

iTrader: (43)

In California, a speed trap is anytime the cop is using radar and is NOT in a disctinctively marked vehicle (read black and white), NOT wearing a distinctive uniform, or that the posted speed limit in question is NOT confirmed by a Road Survey done within the last 5 years.