DC Dan at MAX USA

Theres a lot you should know about the product and the brand but I didnt come to lecture or sell things, I was invited here by someone who posted a news thread about our FC application release, and he couldn't answer all of the questions so I bailed him out - but that thread is gone now - I'd love to tell you more but I'll just wait for the higher powers to answer my mail regarding privileges to do so.

Thank you enj01 for being brave enough to try something new. Hopefully you dont get attacked by an angry mob of status quo militants for doing so. I hope you are as happy as all of the other PSM customers. If not I'll be around to make it right.

I'm sure there is enough information out there that you know what to expect and you wont be let down unless you were expecting a cushy ride. Cant wait to hear what you think...

Healing

For the price, what do you guys really expect? Come on, I don't know why people are giving the KTS/MAX coils so much ****...

They're marketed as drifting coilovers. And, with that in mind, they get the job done quite well for the money. I've ridden in an S14 with the KTS, and they feel nice, stiff, and controllable. I think there is a KTS shock dyno floating around somewhere, too lazy to look (SPL website perhaps?).

The bottom line is, for the money, its hard to find a set of nicely matched springs and dampers. These coilovers won't necessarily get you your absolute best lap times, but they're definitely a huge step up from a lot of other shock/spring combos, and they feel good. And who's to say you're a good enough driver to make use of a fully dialed in, customized suspension anyways?

Black91n/a

Good damping doesn't just effect lap times. Good damping can make a stiffly sprung car feel a lot more civilised and ride a lot smoother. Bad damping can make soft springs crash and bang over the smallest imperfections and cause a loss of grip and give it a bad ride because of it.

I'm not really a fan of adjusting camber on the lower bracket either, since it's liable to slip and compromises wheel and tire clearance by changing the angle of the hub relative to the strut.

I post in these threads because I don't want someone to spend $800, $1000, $1200 or whatever and be disappointed, have them leak in a year, or whatever then have to get another, more expensive setup later on. It's cheaper to spend the $1500 or whatever on a quality setup rather than getting it after wasting time and money on cheap crap. Now I'm not saying that these cheap coilovers are necessarily bad, I'm just saying that from what I've seen they seem to have inferior damping, more cross-talk in the adjusters and typically don't have as much street miles on them to prove their durability. Also they're typically used by young people with no experience with other stuff.

A good budget setup would be Koni Yellows and Ground control coilovers. Under $1000 if you don't get camber plates, but if you keep the ride height reasonable you won't need them. The Konis are excellent shocks and are very durable. This would be an excellent first setup, then you can add camber plates later on if you want. If you have a little more to spend then Tein Flex's are good, reports from users with over 30k miles with no issues, good shock dynos, reasonably priced, rebuildable and re-valveable in North America.

I generally don't put much/any stock in customer reviews, because most people go from a worn out old stock suspension right to coilovers and haven't tried anything else, so they have no base of comparison and their oppinion really doesn't matter, since almost anything is better than worn out stock. The ones I do put stock into are those from racers and track junkies who've experimented with other systems. I also want to see a shock dyno and I want to see street users reporting back that the shocks are still good after tens of thousands of street miles for anything before passing judgement that they're ok. Untill I see that then I think it's pretty safe to assume that they're crap.

Also, it's a good thing to consider whether or not they're re-valveable in North America. If you change spring rates much you'll need them to be re-valved, and having to ship them to Japan, Taiwan, or wherever will add a lot of time and expense to the process. I wouldn't purchase anything that's not re-valveable in North America.

aznpoopy

+1 to that

simply put, because $1k is alot of money for alot of these kids, so there should be a practical discussion that hopefully helps anyone looking to buy one of these entry level coilover sets.

discussion is good. brand loyalty / blind buying is bad.

on that note i looked up KTS
formed in 1992, company name is kind techno structure, based in japan
they've been in the industry for about 15 years and make about 6-7 million USD in suspension parts, focusing on nissan. tein has been in it since 1985 and does about 48 million per year, spread across most makes and models. they are also heavily involved in professional rally competition, surprisingly.

enj01

Yeah he has a point... im 19 and i saved for these, when im like 22-27 and saving still i could have me a pair of w/e i want and i can say why did i ever buy those and laugh at it, It like when you first start a sport you buy budget stuff and then once you figure out you like it and your good at it you buy products that are proven and expensive

DC Dan at MAX USA

I don't think anyone has bought a set of our coilovers because it is cheaper than some other brand. It is priced less than most because we consider that our contribution to the sport. We realize motorsports is a very expensive hobby, and we would rather make it easier for our customers to afford the level of tune they desire instead of charging the end user more to cover expenses like profits in a chain of distribution, sponsorships & advertising. Unfortunately the trade off is that people with no direct experience with our products see our price and automatically assume it is the same as other junk in the same price point.


From my experience I would categorize the MAX competition suspension customers into three groups:

1. A new coilover customer who does independant research, appreciates the value, features, and company philosophy.

2. A new coilover customer who rides in a car equipped with MAX coilovers, or takes a friends advice who has first hand experience with the product.

3. Owners of other famous brand coilovers who paid $1350 or above and are looking to get something more aggressive.

For the third category of customer, they always get the MAX coilovers for zero out of pocket expense because they know that they can easily sell the expensive used coilovers for the same price as our new ones. Furthermore they know when it is time to deal with a worn out shock they will have zero downtime & spend less for an entirely new damper from MAX than they would spend on a brand name rebuild.

enj01

I guess im #1 lol but im left a little confused after reading #3

aznpoopy

#3 sounds like people with tein flex or other comfort/balance/street oriented coilovers

SmogSUX

iTrader: (12)

I love my KTS, they're a little stiff like people say, but I don't mind...it's a sports car hahaha. They feel great when I'm pushing my car around a corner and..as for going low, they go low enough for my tires to hit the inside of my fenders, so thats more than enough for me. My other FC has Tein Flex, which are softer, but I haven't had a chance to really see how they feel pushing the car since it's having boost issues and sits in the shop right now ;[


EDIT: Been daily driving and tracking my KTS for about 2 years now. Paid $1100 shipped and very happy.
A friend of mine had some JIC for his mainly track car and 2 of the struts started to leak within 1 year.

DC Dan at MAX USA

Yeah, Tein and JIC are the most common brands I see being removed for installation of new MAX coilovers.

TitaniumTT

It's a shame I just bought the Stance's, sounds like you could've made a contribution to my sport. Seriously though, unless your company is making $0 profit annually, please don't say it's your contribution. If you were contributing to the sport your goal wouldn't be to make a profit and I don't thing Max is a non-profit organization, is it?

I agree with this 100% FWIW and I've been through 3 different variations in my suspension. The Stances I just ordered last week will be my 4th attempt at spings/shocks. Before you listen to any advice from people on this forum, think about the person you are asking. Do they know what they're talking about? Do they have any suspension experience? Do they even know how to set up a suspension? If terms like corner weighting, grease pencils, thermometers and toe draw blank stares as most would, just ignore whatever retarded answers spew from thier face. I've always said, and this goes back to agreeing with Black91N/A - the only research that can really be done on suspension is on the track.

demontwig

Okay, general noob suspension question here. Shouldn't all shocks in the same price bracket perform *relatively* the same to the average person who sees limited track time? Unless you have a lot of seat time pushing your car with a few different setups? I'm just trying to find out why some people get so bent out of shape regarding suspensions. To me, as long as a person likes the way the setup handles, isn't that good enough? I have stance gr+ now, they are my first set of coilovers, and they treat me fine for what I do even though some people hate on them. Are the Teins, etc, that superior even in that price range to make that much of a difference? And the Megan's vs. the MAX? Should be relatively the same to the average person? Just curious.

TitaniumTT

Yeah - but here's the kicker. How can you convey your opinion about your car and how it handles to someone else? You could have entirely different "base" suspensions - bars, bushings, bracing - which would lead to the same C/O handeling completely different on someone elses car. That embodies the two main problems - There are SO many variables and they are only opinions. My old man thought that my last setup (Eibach/Tockico) was WAY to stiff. I laughed becuase that setup was entire too loose and under sprung.

Let me ask you -
did you get your car aligned?
corner weighted with you or your weight in the drivers seat?
Did you drive around with a grease pencil or a thermometer to dial the camber in?
How many times have you changed the toe?

demontwig

No-because my car has been in the shop for the majority of the time I have owned it (long story ) And yes, a properly dialed in suspension with fresh bushings etc will generally feel tighter than an older worn out suspension with new coilovers/whatever.

Back to your question-no, I haven't changed a thing on my setup. Yet. I plan on getting the most out of what I have. Where as most people will not. I think it's more of a package deal. The MAX's on a well set up car might outperform the Teins/JIC's on a poorly set up car that can't be pushed to it's limits. Just because you put on a set of expensive coilovers it doesn't mean your car is suddenly amazing.

TitaniumTT

Ok - so you're giving advice on suspension after not cornerweighting, aligning, dialing in camber or toe or really driving it? Not trying to be a dick but that's like me telling people how to setup and tune a Motec when I've never even opened the destructions or powered up the ECU/

BTW - I have the same C/O's only with the 7/5 & an 8/6

enj01

Well check this out ive been skateboarding for almost 9 years and when i first started i got a pro deck (board) and it was like 50- 60 bucks a pop and pro wheels which were like 30 bucks for a set, after like 4 years of skating i didn't realize how much money i was wasting and i started buying blank wheels that were like 10$ a set and blank boards that are like 30$ each and they work just as good as the best stuff, they just dont have the nice colors and graphics....

Point is that Am a strong believer that when it comes to buying expensive products i do believe that alot of the time you are paying for the name thats on the product
Example: Tein and JIC (These are 2 of the strongest in my theory i believe) Because if you check out the JIC FLT-A1 they seem to be almost like the FLT-A2's on the outside but they have a twin tube shock design and there still trying to sell for $1300?

demontwig

Actually, I wasn't trying to give advice, just add a little bit to the discussion. I wasn't trying to say anything other than I think to the untrained driver most c/o's in the same price range will perform about the same, regardless of the brand I would assume. I know I don't have enough experience to give a valid opinion on a setup.

sub9lulu

iTrader: (7)

if i havent just bought a set of tein i'd have went with MAX and give it a try

aznpoopy

in response to your first question, demontwig

in reality nobody knows wtf is going on
there hasn't been an objective and comprehensive evaluation of each and every set available and there probably never will be

buying coilovers based on advice on a forum or word of mouth recommendation is mostly the blind leading the blind, especially on a internet forum

DC Dan at MAX USA

I love this forum, sooo off topic but it makes life so much more interesting!

I write this:

I don't think anyone has bought a set of our coilovers because it is cheaper than some other brand. It is priced less than most because we consider that our contribution to the sport. We realize motorsports is a very expensive hobby, and we would rather make it easier for our customers to afford the level of tune they desire instead of charging the end user more to cover expenses like profits in a chain of distribution, sponsorships & advertising. Unfortunately the trade off is that people with no direct experience with our products see our price and automatically assume it is the same as other junk in the same price point.

And you guys write this:

Titanium - Parts Shop MAX USA is my hobby business, I have another business that actually pays the bills. Its really too bad I have not met many people from this forum (in person) because anyone who visits the shop, talks to me or my technician (Rx7 specialist) gets the impression that we're good honest people selling legit parts. Through your PC screen you just think I'm just like every other business man on earth - who's GOAL is to f**k you out of your hard earned cash- regardless of the words I type. I just love cars and I'm grateful to have the opportunity to work on them daily, and to represent such a cool Japanese brand here in the states.

Corner balancing and thermometers LOL, the sport I am refering to is drifting where we are too busy having fun at the track to remember to check the thermometer haha

Demon, just because two suspensions cost the same does not mean that they will perform the same. One lap and you'll know the difference right away. If you are happy with your stances thats all that counts. The reason why people hate on them is that its fun to write, its fun to read, and their post counter soars deep into the four figure range. As long as you get more track time then keyboard time its all good.

LOL, I love it.

If anyone is in So.Cal and wants a ride along to get a real evaluation, It would be my pleasure to meet you and show you what MAX coilovers are all about. We do a track event once or twice per month. Just check into the MAX forum to find out when and where. If you're too far away and still want to see how much fun we have, check out all of the you tube videos from the USA and Japan, they are full of cars rocking our stuff.

aznpoopy

yes on that note. i'm sure pbm **** works fine without exploding all over the place. if not, we would have heard about it by now. my hunch is its probably comparable to stance, but i haven't had a ride in a pbm car yet.

and the best you can really do practically speaking is just go for a ride with someone and see if you like it.

as for off topic ****, price and market perception are tied together, for better or for worse. i actually just briefed a case for my exam where a court discussed how ppl simplify economic strategies for consumer decision making - i.e. statistically speaking two reductionist strategies are dominant; they tend to buy the cheapest or the most expensive. but quality never varies directly with price.

TitaniumTT

Honestly - I didn't think that until this last post. But hey, that's great. My Stances arrive tomorrow. PM your COST to build these and I'll most likely pay you in cash for these to try out. After all, it's your hobby and you're not out to make a profit on your hobby right? Come to think of it, my hobby COSTS me money so just send a set free mmmmkay?? Don't portray a hobby as a business - it conveys to me that you're a liar. Are you registered as a non-profit or Not for Profit entity? I think I asked this before didn't I???? Yup, I did. So, Are you registered as a Non-Profit organization? If not, STOP THE LIES!

Actually, regarding that free set.... nevermind. Some of us are more interested in creating lateral G's than smoke and noise. I have some solid bar sitting on a self in my shop; why not just weld that in place of your shocks? Go have fun at the "track," the rest of us will sit there with our scales and thermometers and set up a car to actually handle a corner. You cant miss us, we'll be the ones passing you @ 90 while your coasting through a corner sideways @ 45 going "YEAH YEAH YEAH!!! I'MA GET ME SOME MAD TYTE STYLE POINTS!!!!!!"

Thanks for proving to the intelligent ones on this forum that your product is nothing but a gimick aimed at the poor highschooler who wants attention. You should know, this is your hobby, most research is done at the track. You know, where you should be working not having "Fun... LOL!!!!"

If this trully is your "hobby," post up a balance sheet and last years tax return. I'll expect everything to zero out. Until that happens all I am going to do is assume you build garbage and market it to kids without alot of cash who need SOMETHING to drop thier car, or stiffen thier ride. This will be the 3rd or 4th time I've asked for proof to your marketing.

BTW guys, Rishie @ Auto RND is offering the Stances that actually have some race history and there are shock dyno's available for not much more cash. After owning an FC for almost 11 years and being on my 4th spring/shock variation - I chose them

Right - becuase youtube is the scientific measurement of choice I don't care about how much "fun" you can have. I had plenty of fun in my Cherokee & my wife's Liberty this weekend in Connecticut. 2 storms in 4 days - WOOT!!! I care about how fast your product can make it around an actual track which I would guess is not going to be as fast as a few other products. I'll be waiting for an actual balance sheet, last years W-2's or a set of MAX coilovers at my door. Until then, keep marketing to kids who don't know better. The rest of us will stick with companies willing to work with customers who track their cars looking for better timeslips, not just "FUN!!!..... LOL!!!!"


This post inspired by

enj01

Bye him saying his contribution to the sport is offering suspension products for less then others, how does this mean theres no profit to be made? I mean theres other ways to cut down price without sacrificing the amount of commission made

Anyways lets stop the fighting plz

And was i supposed to be the young highschool kid?

unicorn_squad

racing is serious business.

if you're having fun, you're not trying hard enough.

USS CJ

Are most of these posts serious?

Having driven cars with stances, and KTS the coilovers are really similar. KTS has been around for like 15 years in Japan and makes a great product. If you guys are saying KTS is crap, while in the next post saying stance is great, you are kidding yourselves. Really similar products.

Bottom line, noone on here needs the best suspension around, MAX or KTS stuff will be just great for what youre going to do, and it would be just fine for the l33t internet racers here too.
<edited by moderators for flaming>