NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

I installed (4) 720cc Venom Injectors (low impedence) in my '87 TII and also swapped in a new 255lph fuel pump.
The car doesn't start now, it did once but I shut it off to make adjustments and it wouldn't start afterwards. It is not flooded, in fact it seems as if it's not getting any fuel at all anymore, the exhaust doesn't reek of gas, doesn't even smell like gas while cranking, it just spins. The plugs are dry when I pull them out after trying to start the car. The new pump was working at one point, it did start and run for a couple minutes before i shut it off that one time. I swapped out pumps again, back to stock to make sure it wasn't the pump anyway and it didn't make a difference.

I did notice however that the gas light is on in the dash. I have fuel in the car so whats that about. The pump pushes fuel when the motor is cranked, it's just not getting into the engine. This leads me to believe there's a problem at the injectors/rail?The injectors were clean, tested for good resistance before they were installed. I don't know, I have new injector clips for them anyway so I'll retest the injector and make sure their firing/squirting fuel. What else? Why wouldthat fuel light be on all of a sudden. This car was running before this fuel upgrade.

SomeGuy_sg

mm.... what kind of adjustment did you make ? There are a few thing you can check. The float in the tank , injectors settings. If you wanna know which part is acting up, pull the injectors and crank the motor. * remember to take out the ign fuse.
If gas gets shot out, it might just be your settings in your Rtek.
If there is no gas ..... Have Fun :P ..haha..

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Fuel lines backwards?

The low fuel light indicates that you are out of gas, or you broke something when you were installing the Walbro.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Jump the fuel pump connector near the passenger side strut tower, then turn the key on, pump should run continuously. If it does, check Aaron's thought about the lines.

skinsfc3s

I am having a similar issue with my 91 tII swap. just wondering which line is the feed and which one is the return on the fuel rail system both lead to similar ends of the seperate fuel rails so im not sure how to identify it. is the forward line supposed to be the supply or the return?

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

ok, the adjustments made were to my work area, lighting and putting clamps back on fuel lines at tank.

The float moves freely as it did before hand.

The injector settings were set to 720cc/720cc in the Rtek.

I will look at whether the injectors are still actaully squirting fuel but I don't think so as the plugs are always dry when I pull them after trying to start it and the exhaust does not smell like gasoline. I will also install the new fuel filter I ahve for it.

The fuel lines are in their correct positions, when looking at fuel pump on my '87 Turbo the feed line is the outlet closest to the front of the car, correct? I know this : As stated in my first post, When the motor is cranked fuel is being sent by the pump through the feed line and through the rails and back to the tank via return line. I know this from disconnecting the return line at the tank and having an assistant crank the car, fuel does return to the tank at a good pace.

I understand that the fuel pump indicates low fuel, I have about half a tank, I was asking more or less what specific component might be broken/faulty to give a false indication of low fuel. I don not believe I have physically broken anything while replacing the fuel pump as I took extreme care to be neat and clean and go slow and do it correctly, it was without any problems or difficulties other than now.

Also in the engine bay look for the high pressure fuel filter on the firewall by the driver's side, that filter is on the feed line which connects to the primary fue rail. Hope that helps.

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Ok well i was just reading Ch 4 in my haynes manual and it mentioned priming the fuel system after messing with it. It did start but it only ran for a min befoe i shut it off. Maybe it was just fuel in the lines. I never jumpered the check connector and primed the fuel system. It should all be hooked up right so I'm gonna kill the car tomarrow, or at least go through the whole trouble shooting thing until it starts. I'm set on fixing this damn car, after it starts I'm determined to fix the idle issue or die trying.......

johnrxt2

did u get it fixed yet? im interested in what the problem is
john

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Not yet, i'm gonna get on it first thing in the morning, i'm talking 8am.....oh yeah. I'd do it now but it;s outside, in my yard, i have a big yard and it's dark, cold and windy out there right now. i just read most of Chapter 4 in the Haynes Repair Manual, i think i can trouble shoot the no fuel issue no problem now, it's just something messed up somewhere along the lines, i'm sure as long as i can get the fuel into my motor she'll fire right up.

Then I'm gonna have to go after my idle problem. Tomarrow will be a day of repair. I just sold my GXL though, so I'll actually have money for supplies and parts now...

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Okay I installed new fuel filter this morning as well as new spark plugs, even though old plugs were okay I figured new ones would be better, they're cheap so I got two new leading and two new trailing plugs.

I primer the fuel system according to the book and attempte to start it but it just spins with a very small blip every once in a while. The plugs are dry when pulled and the motor is not flooded. I am not getting fuel into the motor.

I jumped the fuel check connector and turned the key to the "ON" position and ran back to the hatch where the access cover to the wiring and lid for fuel pump is, put my ear down and sure enough the pump is churning away down there.

I even heard the first splash of the new fuel returning to the tank via the return line and the bubbles as it cycled the air out.

But even after the couple seconds where it splashed and bubbled and actually primed, the pump never stopped running, so I am concluding that the fuel system is not pressurizing properly, resulting in my lack of fuel to the motor.

So now I'm gonna test my fuel system pressure and go through the process of elimination.

I just went out and bought a fuel pressure gauge from Advanced Auto, it was about $37 and didn't anything for me the way it was set up from the packaging. I took it apart and reassembled with $13 worth of different hosing and fittings and some Teflon tape.

So here it is :

Tomarrow will determine where we go from here, I'm hoping maybe the fuel pressure regulator blew open when I installed the 255lph. The fuel does come flying back to the tank via the return. At least then I have an excuse to spend the loot for the Aeromtive FPR...

HAILERS

Buy a can of starter fluid. Spray it into the air filter for one to two seconds. Start the engine. If the engine starts and then dies, it's a fuel delivery problem. If it does not start, it's most likely not a fuel problem.

The fuel pressure gauge was a good idea. Useful. I've even cut the hose on a compression tester and used it for fuel pressure. Works.

JEG'S also makes/sells a fuel pressure gauge that actually works pretty darn good. It's the 0-100psi one and cost about 18 bucks. http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...63500_-1_10339

And they have hose kits to fit the gauges. Somewhat small gauge but seems to work fine and is accurate. http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...0002_762797_-1

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

ohhhh... i was hoping for some flames about the Teflon tape.....dammit. Anyways, the tape is Yellow Gasline PTFE so it's fine.
this gauge will do just fine for now. thanks i'll let you know how it works.

matthewromeril

just to check you know the 86-88 s4 and s5 injectors are different have you got the right ones. there is an xtra box for s4

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

The 87-88 Turbo II's run low impedance injectors (like 3 ohms). For the 89 model year, they completely redid the engine management system. From then on the 89-91's ran high impedance (like 14 ohms).

My car runs low impedance injectors stock and that is what I replaced them with. I believe the added pack you are refferring to is in S5s or something, the box is a resistor pack that later the reistance seen between the ECU and the injectors. That is my current understanding anyways, I'm sure there are FAQ's or other posts expalining the difference. Most of the threads I cam across were actually in DSM forums talking about them stealing our injectors, Hahaha.

Anwyas ,I know that my S4 Turbo, made in Febuary of '87 was equipped with low impedance injecotrs or "Peak and Hold" type injectors NOT high impedance or Saturated injectors that came in S5's.

I am using the correct Injectors( Low Resistance).

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

On a different note:

I tested the fuel system pressure with the check connector jumped and the guague in place between the filter and the primary fuel rail, with the key in the "ON" position, the pressure was shown to be 44psi.
The manual says factory specs are 34.1 to 39.8psi. So I'm a little on the high side. This indicates a faulty or failing FPR according to the book and should be replaced.

Once the key is turned to the off posistion the pressure quickly drops to 10psi and within 2 minutes to 5psi, basically it drains right down to nothing in 5 minutes.. factory fuel system hold pressure after 5 minutes is supposed to be 18psi. So again, this idicates fuel pressure is escaping somehow.

I measured the fuel pump pressure by itself and it was shown to be 68-69 psi with the stock pump compared to the factory spec of 71.1 to 92.4psi, so the old pump is a few psi under but not too bad.
The fuel pump hold pressure after 5 min was shown to be 58psi compared to the factory spec of 57psi. Thats good news anyways.

Shorthand:

Fuel System Active Pressure - 44psi, compared to 34.1 to 39.8psi factory spec
Fuel System Hold Pressure - 10-->5-->0psi, compared to 18psi factory spec
Fuel Pump Active Pressure - 68psi, compared to 71.1 to 92.4psi factory spec
Fuel Pump Hold Pressure - 58psi, compared to 57psi factory spec

So from this, I getting that the fuel pump is pretty much okay, there aren't any leaks between the pump and the primary fuel rail. Also when the whole system was pressurized, I took the chance to look for leaks thoroughly, and could find any leaks, not even at the Pulsation Dampener.

I'm think the pressure regulator needs to be replaced and there are probaly connection issues with the injectors.

The injectors clips were very brittle and somewhat broken, and I didn;t wait for the new ones to arrive before I had tried to start the car, so anyways now that the upper intake manifold and throttle body are removed again I am going to rewire the injectors with new clips, even got heat shrink tubing and soldering stuff to do it.

My only problem is that the wires for one of the seondary injector clips pulled through the clip and got mixed up before I could note which wire went to which pin in the connector. It is the "left" secondary injector if your are looking at the fuel rail from the driver's side.
There are two wires, one that is brown with blue stripes and one that is brown with gold stripes, these wires pulle dout of the connector and were mixed up.

Looking at the clip as shown in the pic, which wire should be where??


Also two of the vac lines on the rear of the intake manifold are the same size and they were moved as well. Do they go back on like shown or are the two smaller hoses switched when plugged back onto the manifold?


Thansk a million!! usually the tubes/wires/hoses etc are numbered/marked by me with silver sharpie but this time was an attempt at the land speed record for removal of the UIM and Throttle Body and i got the two mixed up. Stupid me..

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The car should still start with the higher fuel pressure, so don't worry about that immediately. As long as you have pressure at the rails things will work for now.

The injectors are not polarized. Connect them either way.

Once you get things hooked up again, have someone crank the car while you listen to the injectors with a stethoscope (from the parts store). Make sure they are clicking.

Once you have the car running, retest the fuel pressure.

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

yeah, i figured the 5psi over rpessure wouldn't hurt, that muvch anyways. It seems as if everything is okay with the fuel until it tries to go out of the injectors, I am going to rewire them all today. The old clips were in very bad shape and I'm thinking that might be the problem, I hope so cause they're brand new injectors. The injectors are actually right now the only variable left.

is it safe to apply 12v to the injectors and see if they click or make noise? I guess I'll probaly take them out of their holes and see if they actually flow into a container, maybe even do my own Flowtest.

I have to get some "RTV" or Epoxy anways, to block off the subzero nipples, so 'll pick up that stethoscope.


I've smelled like gasoline for three days now, and I have showered.....
Thanks

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

You can apply 12V if you do it through a series resistor and keep the "on" time short. The injector should make a loud and easily identifiable click, and then a clack when you remove power.

HAILERS

Something is wrong with the pump.It isn't even up to stock turboII specs. Pressure is toooooo low when you deadended the pump and checked the pressure.

At first I was going to say the pump was too big because of the high pressure with the pump running and you checking the pressure with everything connected up and engine off. But the low deadhead pressure says that ain't so.

The fuel low light is caused by the thermistor located on the rod (wire spirled around the rod, thermistor on the end). Not anything to do with the float.

I'd put the stock TII pump back in or if it was a non turbo pump, put it back in.

Even before doing that I'd pull the plug off the pump.....spray STARTER FLUID (not carb cleaner) into the airfilter for two to three seconds and see if the engine will start.

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Ok, the pump that is installed right now is the stock(old) fuel pump that was in the car when I bought it. But are those few psi enough tomake it so i don't see any fuel to the motor?? This is the same pump that used used in the car up until now and it always got fuel. I have a new 255lph that should fix the low deadhead pressure, I will install tomarrow and measure again.

What about the fuel system pressure bleeding down so quickly?? It can't be leaking back out through the pump or leaks in the line, both were okay when checked yesterday. Must be the FPR right, given the injectors aren't leaking??


The fuel light isn't on anymore actually, I added some more fuel the other day and that seemed to take care of that.

So today i rewired all of the injectors and was quite pleased with how it turned out, it seems much more solid, loads better of a connection i would imagine. The old clips were barley on there anymore, very loose indeed. I boutght the set of connectors w/clips and wiring, heat shrink tubing and some silica dieelectric grease or something for about $8 off ebay.
Check it out:

This is my very first attempt at soldering, pathetic I know.......

Soldered connections with small individual heatshrink:


Additional heatshrink tubing:


Connected and clip onto new injector:


All four Venom 720cc injectors rewired, soldered, heatshrunk tubing:



I also cleaned the primary fuel rail and ran new fuel line from the metal feed to the primary rail and then from the primary rail to the secondaryrail. I'll do from the secondary on after I replace the FPR with the Aeromtive one, but this is better than it was.

I also noticed that the screw on the end of the pulsation dampener had came loose and was rolling around inside of the plastic cap on the end. I reinstalled the screw.


Tommarrow we continue to try to please the rotary gods:

HAILERS

*****What about the fuel system pressure bleeding down so quickly?? It can't be leaking back out through the pump or leaks in the line, both were okay when checked yesterday. Must be the FPR right, given the injectors aren't leaking??*****

That depends. IF you just had the gauge tee'd into the fuel pressure line right after the filter and had the check connector jumpered and key to ON, then if you turned the key to OFF, the fuel pressure should have stayed up for quite some time. I've seen pressure still in the high twentys after thirty minutes.

So if it fell like a rock under those conditions, then it could be the FPR or the pump itself.

IF you just installed the line off the filter directly to the gauge and no tee to feed the fuel rails, and had the jumper installed and key to ON, THEN turned the key to off.........the pressue should have held for quite some time. If it did not then the pump is corrupt.

Yeah, it sounds like the FPR is acting funny or you have a blockage.

Although its the not the Waldo and is the original pump, its like you saw, the pressue just off the pump seems (is) low, BUT as you saw, the fuel rail pressue was HIGHER than NORMAL. So there should have been enough pressure to feed the engine hands down. That higher pressue might be causing it to flood during start.

Ever try to disconnect the fuel pump and start the engine using Starter Fluid with the pedal all the way down.

NJGreenBudd

iTrader: (1)

Right, that is what happened. The pressure fell right away when it was just tee'd in after the filter. However, when I deadheaded the pump it held it's pressure to the factory specs. So this would indicate a failing/faulty FPR right??

The motor is not flooding as there is no fuel is the exhauist while cranking nor are the spark plugs wet, I am familar with a flooded rotary engine and my motor is not flooded.
Also I have not tryed starter fluid but after I get it back together, if it doesn't start then I'll try that. Though after all of this, I am pretty confident that it will start once back together.

Thanks for all of your help. I appreciate it.

skinsfc3s

Any progress made on this issue. I am very interested in the outcome cause i have just completed my tII swap and installed a walboro pump and am having what seems to be the same issue except mine will start after approx. 3 seconds of cranking but will never run more than a few seconds. I was certain it was a FPR issue so i pinched off the return line to build more pressure but still no change. and after the car dies i can still hear the pump running. im so lost. unless something is cutting my injector signal which i doubt then im not sure what else to try other than a whole new fuel rail and regulator, but as most of us are im on a very tight budget and cant afford to be guessing a bunch. any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

rotorgo

I have an s4 tII. It caught fire and i replaced injector wiring and other stuff, besides the point. I had the same problem. Fuel pressure to the injectors, they just wouldn't squirt fuel. I hated it, took me forever to find the problem. I assumed a short/bad ground in a sensor. I disconnected the MAF, and magically they squirted fuel. Turned out that some of the soldered connections in the maf were broken, causing ecu to not fire the injectors. Fixed it, and it goes. Try pulling off the maf, and see if the injectors click. Just my experience.

johnrxt2

did that thing ever start?