im wanting to do a turbo...
08-02-10, 12:59 AM
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im wanting to do a turbo...
Hey everyone,
I have a 90 S5 FC with a pineapple rebuild w/ small street port.
i've been told that if i want to go turbo i should get a different engine.
I want something that will have a high acceleration, mainly for uphill mountain climbs and drifting.
I do have a spare S4 engine that im not using currently.
SO i need suggestions as to what setups to run and an estimate on cost.
I'm about to deploy so time is somewhat important; but money isnt.
Thank you!
I have a 90 S5 FC with a pineapple rebuild w/ small street port.
i've been told that if i want to go turbo i should get a different engine.
I want something that will have a high acceleration, mainly for uphill mountain climbs and drifting.
I do have a spare S4 engine that im not using currently.
SO i need suggestions as to what setups to run and an estimate on cost.
I'm about to deploy so time is somewhat important; but money isnt.
Thank you!
08-02-10, 01:33 AM
#2
It seriously depends how much money, time and efforts you're planning to spend on your car(assuming that your engine was built with 6 ports and high compression rotors).
Some people here had already proved that a N/A engine can be turboed, but the time and hassle is really important to reach good results in that kind of project. An engine built with low compression rotors and 4 ports would be less off the hook and would need less research and custom built parts to achieve your turbo goal.
Nothing is impossible, but nothing is that easy.
Some people here had already proved that a N/A engine can be turboed, but the time and hassle is really important to reach good results in that kind of project. An engine built with low compression rotors and 4 ports would be less off the hook and would need less research and custom built parts to achieve your turbo goal.
Nothing is impossible, but nothing is that easy.
08-02-10, 02:08 AM
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^^ well said wankel
but rx7seben what is your budget?
because going na to turbo cost,
but if you take out your N/A out and find a turbo block and parts this is what you gunna need
MAF/AFM: You're gunna need a 87-88 Turbo MAF/AFM (mass air flow meter) N318 i believe . The car Will start and run with a Non turbo MAF but it will run rich. the turbo's have a stronger spring in them.
TID: (turbo inlet duct) a black rubber duct that goes from the MAF outlet to the turbo inlet. Some people have made them from home depot's turbo and intercooler etc. section. The stock ones are kinda known for cracking right on the turbo inlet end right where it goes over the turbo inlet and it clamps on. Or if you already have an after market cone filter and MAF adapter you can make an even easier inlet duct out of intercooler piping and a 3in to 2-2.5in reducer for the MAF to pipe and a standard connector to hook it up to the turbo. I can take pics if you have no idea what I'm taking about...
BOOST SENSOR: Get a Turbo II boost sensor #318. If for some reason you don't have one by the time you are going to fire her up you can do two things: (And I know its not right guys so don't flame me for saying these things...) 1. leave your NA boost sensor in and just don't hit boost until you get one. If you do it will boost up but will stutter really bad unless you floor it then it will accelerate sorta normally. I'm not sure if it runs lean or rich when you floor it so just don't do it unless you Really have to. 2. Unplug it completely. The ECU will set the Boost sensor parameters at a preset level and leave it there (sorta like S4 limp mode kinda). With it unplugged you can drive the car normally but it will run rich (bad gas mileage) and your "shift up" light won't work. I know it runs the engine rich because I checked the stoich (Air to fuel) level with my Wide band meter on one of my TII's when I unplugged the boost sensor. (again flame on if you think I'm wrong, this is just a temporary suggestion guys there's no substitute for a real turbo boost sensor)
ENGINE: Where you get one I don't care. I'm not gunna recommend any japan importers except maybe "japan2la" To make things easier just get a S4 turbo engine. Although I got a S5 and converted it to work with my S4 chassis, thats a whole different thread though. Above it all I built my S5/S4 engine so I had to get the little things like: all the top mount intercooler piping (which isn't alot). You'll probably get all that anyway from where ever and who ever you got your engine from.
I blocked off ALL the emissions on this engine so I'm not going to go into emissions stuff AND i disabled the twin scroll system when it had a S4 turbo setup on it.
WIRING HARNESS: either harness needs a few mods to make them work perfectly. The original NA harness in my opinion was the easiest to mod. I haven't had to mod a Turbo harness to make that work but some people have... search. I can't remember which wires you need to trip but I know one of the NA wires that go to the power steering goes to the knock sensor system on the TII's so... not fixing the wire problem means when ever you turn the wheel your ECU will retard the timing 20 degrees. The knock system works about the time you start to here big noises and you have realized to let off the throttle (its pretty useless and leave out that system in your swap) There's another wire that on a TII goes to a fuel pump resistor but not on a NA so disable that wire too. I'll check one of my swaps to verify the wire numbers like 3B etc.
You have to lengthen your harness to alow it to plug into the BAC and sometimes its not long enough to plug into the TPS. Easy and straight forward stuff though.
INTERCOOLER: you have 2.5 options really: 1. get a front mount setup. 2. get a TII hood. .5 the stock top mount intercooler will fit under your NA hood and allow it to close BUT you're pretty much cooking your air instead of cooling it then. I saw temps of up to 120 degrees intake temp on one of the swaps i did where we left the NA hood on and ran a TMIC TEMPORARILY. You can however just leave the NA hood off with the TMIC and then it works to an extent but not as good as a TII hood setup or going with a FMIC.
BLOW OFF VALVE/ BAR: (BAR= bypass air return) if you don't have a stock TID then you need an actually atmospheric blow off valve like a Blitz DD BOV , otherwise the stock BAR plugs into the TID from the turbo outlet pipe. BOV's are easy to hook up though. just plug them into a place after the turbo outlet and not too close to the intake and give it some vacuum and you're good to go.
THROTTLE CABLE: Simple, get a TII throttle cable
BRAKE BOOSTER VACUUM LINE: Lengthen your existing one to your original pipe if you can.
TRANSMISSION: You have a few options on this.
1. use your NA trans and upgrade your clutch to hold the extra power, but in the end you're gunna wish you did a full turbo drive train conversion cause the NA system works but isn't the strongest.
2. Use a turbo trans S4 or S5 and use a turbo clutch setup, turbo slave cylinder, starter and... get a custom drive shaft. There's ways of doing that, the easiest way is to buy Mazdatrix's custom TII to NA shaft which is basically a NA shaft with a turbo Trans connector and a NA rear end connector. You can also find a good drive shaft shop and take them a NA drive line and a TII drive line and have them switch the ends. Thats cheaper and works just as good. I'm only going to mention the words "NA Automatic Trans driveshaft" ... (I'm not recommending it in any way, don't flame) The NA auto shaft has in a sense a turbo front and a NA end BUT its a little shorter so you could strip your turbo trans's outlet if you run that shaft hard (boost) this shaft will get you by as in you car use it to move the car and maybe take it on a short test drive... thats all.
3. Turbo drivetrain setup, you will need : the turbo clutch setup, turbo slave cylinder, turbo starter, turbo drive shaft, turbo rear end and turbo half shafts and a few nuts and bolts here and there. Its all or none with this setup so you're either going this way or not but you can use S4 or S5 parts.
FUEL PUMP: You can use a stock turbo fuel pump, a S6 (3rd gen) fuel pump, a walbro 255 replacement, or if you're really desperate you can use your NA to start and drive the car and NOT BOOST. It will lean out if you use a NA pump and thats bad news.
EXHAUST DOWNPIPE: there's a few things you can do, get a stock TII precat/downpipe and mid pipe which bolts it up to the main cat OR get a aftermarket downpipe or custom one. You'll see the problem when you get to that point and you'll find its not too much work to make it work. Oh that NA exhaust system is kinda restrictive so redoing the entire system is advisable or it will effect your boost.
ECU: Get a N332 or N333 ECU, these are turbo ECU's and you need one. then along the way you can do what ever and maybe get a RTEK 2.1 or Apexi power FC, or a Haltec blah blah blah
BOOST GAUGE: Don't think you can just throw a turbo gauge cluster in it and the stock boost gauge will work, it won't unless its a S5 car. those are interchangeable and are plug and play. You can make the S4 stock boost gauge work but then again anything is possible and its not worth the trouble. Get a aftermarket boost gauge and mount it where ever.
There's a chance I could have left something out maily because I'm a little tired or its small enough that I just didn't remember it so if you have any questions and no flames just ask. Oh and pics on request.
I didn't include prices for everything cause they always vary and most times you get a "great deal" on a part so its your job to find this stuff. It may seem like a lot but its way worth it.
Any questions, comments, or corrections go ahead and reply or shoot me a PM.
but here is another one if you decide to get a 13brew from the 3rd gen rx7 engine i list some estimate prices
The allure of swapping to a newer engine with more power is attractive, especially with the 3rd Gen utilizing twin, sequential turbot’s and producing 255hp stock (over 55hp more than a Kouki 2nd Gen). In reality, swapping a 13B-REW twin-turbo engine from an 3rd Gen into an 2nd Gen is not easy. There are two known methods of addressing the engine mounting problem, and we well cover both options.
The most popular method is to adapt the stock 13B-REW engine mounts to the 2nd Gen chassis. Trying to adapt the stock 13B-REW engine mounts to the stock 2nd Gen engine mount locations on the chassis is a difficult proposition, and it's not a recommended design. The stock 13B-REW engine mounts are both located on the rear, side housing; the stock 2nd Gen 13BT engine mounts are located on the center, intermediate housing. This makes for a sharp angle to connect both "points". When researching engine mounts in general, the weight load vector is universally in a vertical plane; the engine (above) loads the mounts (below) straight up and down. Thus, we should try and keep this design structure in mind. The easiest way to accomplish this is to keep the stock 13B-REW engine mounts and weld in a new cross member toward the rear of the 2nd Gen engine "cradle". There is just enough space to weld in a 3" cross member, and getting the 13B-REW engine mounts to mount nicely is pretty easy. This allows you to keep almost all the 13B-REW components.
The optional method to welding in a cross member is to drill and tap the 13B-REW center housing to accept the stock 2nd Gen 13BT passenger engine mount; three M14 x 1.50 holes need to be drilled and tapped into the underside of the center, intermediate housing of the 13B-REW engine to accept the three 17mm bolts that secure the bottom of the engine to the passenger side engine mount. This requires a custom oil pan or the stock 2nd Gen 13BT oil pan. The stock 2nd Gen driver's side engine mount is secured by two nuts on already existing studs on the 13B-REW. The passenger side engine mount is mounted in the middle of the engine, necessitating the oil pan change. If you decide on using the 2nd Gen 13BT oil pan, you need to seal the front edge of the 13BT oil pan, as it's longer than the stock 13B-REW oil pan by about 1/4".
Once you take care of the mounting problem, the rest is pretty easy. An 2nd Gen clutch can be bolted onto the 3rd Gen stock flywheel if on a budget. The stock 2nd Gen transmission should mate with the 13B-REW with very few problems; if the 13B-REW came off an automatic transmission equipped chassis, there is an extra bolt hole in the bell housing, which will not mate up with anything on a stock, 5-speed 2nd Gen transmission. The 2nd Gen starter should fit with little fuss.
If you're going to run a stock 3rd Gen stock ECU, you'll need the engine harness, ignition system harness, igniter, and all coils from the 3rd Gen, minimally. Going to aftermarket EMS fuel and ignition control gives you more flexibility but may require additional ignition components. Choosing a Haltech EMS for control will allow you to use the stock 13B-REW ignition input (trigger wheel and magnetic pick-ups) and the stock 2nd Gen coils/igniters!
Due to the 13B-REW already using a front-mounted intercooler, this will pretty much require you to do the same. This would probably be one of the most expensive aftermarket components to get this conversion completed. A popular option is to run the GReddy elbow into the throttle body, as this is a polished aluminum piece versus the stock plastic pipe.
An upgrade fuel pump is almost a necessity, as the 13B-REW uses 2x550 + 2x850 versus the stock 4x550 on a 2nd Gen 13BT. A Walbro 255lph is more than adequate for this application.
The radiator hoses are slightly different for the 13B-REW, so mating up with the stock 2nd Gen 13BT radiator will take a little custom work. "Universal" ribbed, radiator hoses can be used as a cheap alternative. It's highly recommended to get an upgrade radiator if you still have the stock unit. The GReddy pulley kit is another option to slow down the radiator and alternator a bit and comes with its own special size belt.
Stock twin turbot’s will easily fit into the 2nd Gen engine bay, but a custom down pipe is required to fit with the rest of the 2nd Gen exhaust system. You can stick with the stock intake system on the twin turbot’s which will minimally require a pair of cone filters or equivalent.
Oil lines will need to be custom made to fit the 13B-REW oil fittings to the stock 2nd Gen oil cooler up front. The front oil cooler lines is close to the 13BT set-up, but the rear oil cooler line mounts higher up on the engine by the oil filter.
I have mirrored Paul Ko's infamous 13BT versus 13B-REW write-up here: http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FAQ/REW/BTvsBREW.html this page goes into detail in the differences between the two engines.
Engine Mounts:
13B-REW Engine: $2,000 (Price’s Vary, but on average they range between $1,500-$2,500) i recommend Japan2la
Clutch Kit: $350 (ACT Heavy Duty Clutch is only good for 450ib-ft of torque)
Down pipe: $100 (whether you’re going single or stock twin turbo, this exhaust pipe is needed to mate with the rest of the exhaust system)
Front-Mount Intercooler: $1,200 (The GReddy V-spec Front-Mount Intercooler kit is the standard for which all Front-Mount Intercoolers are judge for the 2nd Gen RX-7)
Oil Cooler Lines: $200 Typical cost to custom fabricating a pair of oil cooler lines from any name brand SS AN Manufacturer Earls, Russell’s, XRP)
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump: $150 (you can use a pair of Walbro 255lph fuel pumps for a little cheaper)
Haltech E6K: $1,500 (Optional stock 3rd Gen 13B-REW ECU, engine Harness, Ignition Components can be substituted)
Radiator: $500 (Cost of an upgrade radiator and custom radiator hoses to fit the 13B-REW Inlet/Outlets)
Greddy Elbow: $200 (Optional)
Greddy Pulley kit: 13B-REW: $120 (Optional)
Total Cost for 13B-REW: $6,950
Total Cost for 13B-REW W/Optional: $7,270
(Just on those estimations, we're looking at a cost of just the components.
The prices do not take into consideration on which route for engine mounting, as both require some special tools and labor for fabrication.
Prices are typical retail, so it's possible to get most of it discounted slightly)
The prices look pretty cheap to do this swap, but keep in mind the special labor it takes to get the engine mounted. If you have access to welding resources, fabricating a cross member should not be that bad. For those who need to pay someone else to do the work, be prepared for a large bill! A Kouki 13BT engine comes very close to what the 13B-REW offers, and power potential is very close at this point. I wouldn't normally recommend this swap, as a Cosmo engine swap is a little easier to do over the 3rd Gen 13B-REW. The Cosmo offers their own variation on a 2-rotor, sequential twin-turbo 13B; with Cosmo engine mounts being offered to make this conversion a drop-in affair, I would normally recommend going with the Cosmo engine swap.
and for the13BRE cosmo engine i was talking about
the Cosmo 13B-RE is the sequential twin-turbo on the Cosmo 13B-RE. Although it's almost impossible to retain the sequential operation of these twin-turbo (which requires the use of the stock Cosmo ECU), you can mod the sequential twin-turbo to run in non-sequential mode.
[Cosmo 13B-RE engine - ~$1,500]
Engine Mounts:
The hardest part of the engine install is the engine mounts. If you can fabricate some custom engine mounts, this'll make things a lot easier to bolt in. Luckily, you can buy these pre-made by the following vendors:
K2RD.com > http://www.k2rd.com/
FC3S.org > http://www.fc3s.org/parts_services/1...so_mounts.html
Transmission:
The Cosmo 13B-RE bolts onto the stock FC transmission with no problem. The Cosmo 13B-RE only comes with an automatic transmission option, so it will most likely have a counterweight and flex plate attached; if your engine did not come with a counterweight, you can use a Kouki 2nd /3rd Gen stock flywheel or automatic counterweight. If you are going to use an aftermarket (lightened) flywheel, the automatic counterweight is required. The automatic transmission counterweight makes it easy to install an aftermarket (lightened) flywheel in this case. Be sure to install a new pilot bearing and pilot bearing seal before installing the clutch.
[Lightened flywheel - $400; ACT Heavy Duty clutch kit - $350]
Turbo
The stock twin-turbo system does fit within the 2nd Gen engine bay. As mention above, it's almost impossible to control the sequential twin-turbo properly; modifying the twin-turbo to run in non-sequential mode is practical. Else, you can always go with a large single turbo set-up. All the aftermarket 2-rotor (13B) turbo manifolds should fit with very little work.
[HKS cast turbo manifold - $300; turbo - $1,500; oil/water SS AN lines and fittings - $200; intake piping - $100]
Exhaust
3-inch exhausts are the typical sizes for these engines. A custom down pipe is in order whether you're going with the stock twin-turbo system or large single set-up.
[Custom down pipe - $100; aftermarket exhaust - $800]
Intake/Intercooler
You might run into minor fitment issues with the upper intake manifold and/or the stock intake piping on the Cosmo 13B-RE if you're keeping the stock twin turbo. The stock Cosmo uses a front-mounted intercooler, so you'll need to have a front-mounted intercooler installed on the 2nd Gen.
[GReddy V-Spec front-mount intercooler kit - $1,200]
Oil Cooler Lines
If you're still running stock oil cooler lines, it's a good idea to run some SS braided lines for this project. If you already have a set of aftermarket oil cooler lines, they should fit the Cosmo 13B-RE with very little fuss.
[SS -10AN oil cooler lines with AN fittings - $200]
Cooling System
The stock 2nd Gen radiator is borderline for this project. You can also retrofit an 2nd Gen 13BT water pump housing, water pump, and thermostat housing to replace the odd Cosmo 13B-RE units; it's easier to find replacement belts, since the Cosmo 13B-RE uses both serpentine and v-belts. If you're keeping the stock Cosmo water pump (housing) both upper and lower radiator hoses might need to be addressed, as water pump housing outlets are slightly different.
[Upgrade radiator - $500; stock 2nd Gen water pump housing, water pump, gaskets - $300]
Fuel System
The stock fuel injectors are 4x550; identical to the 2nd Gen 13BT. It's always a good idea to upgrade the fuel pump. Keep in mind the stock fuel injectors are only good up to about 250bhp to the flywheel.
[Walbro upgrade fuel pump - $150]
EFI/Stand-alone ECU’s
The stock 2nd Gen 13BT ECU can push the Cosmo 13B-RE, with the exception of the sequential twin-turbo system. This is the beauty of this conversion. A stand-alone EMS would make for more efficient power.
[Haltech E6K with all options - $1,500]
Additional "Problems"
We've already mentioned the hood clearance problem if you're keeping the stock twin-turbo and intercooler piping. The front of the upper intake manifold may contact the hood slightly as does part of the power steering pump.
Bottom line...
The conversion can be done cheaply. The stock 2nd Gen turbo ECU (and ignition system) can control the Cosmo 13B-RE fairly well. To extract the full potential of this engine swap, a stand-alone EMS is highly recommended. Power ceiling can top over 500hp, but the budget starts to edge toward the $10,000 mark. This is not a very popular swap at the moment, but these engines are readily available from most Japan import engine dealers.
Cosmo 13B-RE Engine: $1,500 (Prices Vary but on average they range between $1,000-$2,000)
Engine Mounts: $250 (FC3S.Org offers their Cosmo engine mounts for $250. K2RD offers their Cosmo engine mounts for $450)
Flywheel: $400 (Typical price for lightened steel or aluminum flywheel. Counterweight should come with engine. A used Kouki 2nd Gen or 3rd Gen stock flywheel should be priced under $100)
Clutch Kit: $350 (Act Heavy Duty Clutch is only good for 450ib-ft of torque)
Down Pipe: $100 (Whether you're going single turbo or stock twin turbo, this custom exhaust pipe is needed to mate with the rest of the exhaust system.
Front-Mount Intercooler: $1,200 (The GReddy V-spec front-mount intercooler kit is the standard for which all front-mount intercoolers are judges for the 2nd Gen)
Walbro Fuel Pump: $150 (Recommended)
Oil Coolers Lines: $200 (Typical cost to custom fabrication a pair of oil cooler lines from any name brand SS AN manufacturer Earls, Russell’s, XRP)
Exhaust System: $800 (This might be optional. If you already have a (larger) aftermarket exhaust system, this might not be necessary. $500 average for a good "cat back" exhaust, and $300 added for a pre-silencer section to be made)
Radiator: $500 (Optional, But Recommended)
HKS Turbo Exhaust Manifold: $300 (Optional but if you're going single turbo, this is your cheapest option)
Turbo: $1,500 (Optional, Price is from Turbonetics)
Oil/Water lines for Turbo: $200 (Optional, require for single turbo. Includes prices for SS AN lines and fittings for both oil and water lines for turbo CHRA)
Intake pipe for Turbo: $100 (Optional, required for single turbo. Piping and silicone hoses to adapt single turbo to intercooler and for intake going into the turbo itself)
2nd Gen Water Pump + Housing: (Optional)
Haltech E6X: $1,500 (Optional, Highly Recommended for Single Turbo)
Total Cost for 13B-RE Stock Twin Turbo: $6,450
Total Cost for 13B-RE Single Turbo: $9,050
like i said its a estimate prices, if you want a 13brew, 13bre cosmo, or 13bt s5 engine i recommend japan2la if you need more info just let me know
but rx7seben what is your budget?
because going na to turbo cost,
but if you take out your N/A out and find a turbo block and parts this is what you gunna need
MAF/AFM: You're gunna need a 87-88 Turbo MAF/AFM (mass air flow meter) N318 i believe . The car Will start and run with a Non turbo MAF but it will run rich. the turbo's have a stronger spring in them.
TID: (turbo inlet duct) a black rubber duct that goes from the MAF outlet to the turbo inlet. Some people have made them from home depot's turbo and intercooler etc. section. The stock ones are kinda known for cracking right on the turbo inlet end right where it goes over the turbo inlet and it clamps on. Or if you already have an after market cone filter and MAF adapter you can make an even easier inlet duct out of intercooler piping and a 3in to 2-2.5in reducer for the MAF to pipe and a standard connector to hook it up to the turbo. I can take pics if you have no idea what I'm taking about...
BOOST SENSOR: Get a Turbo II boost sensor #318. If for some reason you don't have one by the time you are going to fire her up you can do two things: (And I know its not right guys so don't flame me for saying these things...) 1. leave your NA boost sensor in and just don't hit boost until you get one. If you do it will boost up but will stutter really bad unless you floor it then it will accelerate sorta normally. I'm not sure if it runs lean or rich when you floor it so just don't do it unless you Really have to. 2. Unplug it completely. The ECU will set the Boost sensor parameters at a preset level and leave it there (sorta like S4 limp mode kinda). With it unplugged you can drive the car normally but it will run rich (bad gas mileage) and your "shift up" light won't work. I know it runs the engine rich because I checked the stoich (Air to fuel) level with my Wide band meter on one of my TII's when I unplugged the boost sensor. (again flame on if you think I'm wrong, this is just a temporary suggestion guys there's no substitute for a real turbo boost sensor)
ENGINE: Where you get one I don't care. I'm not gunna recommend any japan importers except maybe "japan2la" To make things easier just get a S4 turbo engine. Although I got a S5 and converted it to work with my S4 chassis, thats a whole different thread though. Above it all I built my S5/S4 engine so I had to get the little things like: all the top mount intercooler piping (which isn't alot). You'll probably get all that anyway from where ever and who ever you got your engine from.
I blocked off ALL the emissions on this engine so I'm not going to go into emissions stuff AND i disabled the twin scroll system when it had a S4 turbo setup on it.
WIRING HARNESS: either harness needs a few mods to make them work perfectly. The original NA harness in my opinion was the easiest to mod. I haven't had to mod a Turbo harness to make that work but some people have... search. I can't remember which wires you need to trip but I know one of the NA wires that go to the power steering goes to the knock sensor system on the TII's so... not fixing the wire problem means when ever you turn the wheel your ECU will retard the timing 20 degrees. The knock system works about the time you start to here big noises and you have realized to let off the throttle (its pretty useless and leave out that system in your swap) There's another wire that on a TII goes to a fuel pump resistor but not on a NA so disable that wire too. I'll check one of my swaps to verify the wire numbers like 3B etc.
You have to lengthen your harness to alow it to plug into the BAC and sometimes its not long enough to plug into the TPS. Easy and straight forward stuff though.
INTERCOOLER: you have 2.5 options really: 1. get a front mount setup. 2. get a TII hood. .5 the stock top mount intercooler will fit under your NA hood and allow it to close BUT you're pretty much cooking your air instead of cooling it then. I saw temps of up to 120 degrees intake temp on one of the swaps i did where we left the NA hood on and ran a TMIC TEMPORARILY. You can however just leave the NA hood off with the TMIC and then it works to an extent but not as good as a TII hood setup or going with a FMIC.
BLOW OFF VALVE/ BAR: (BAR= bypass air return) if you don't have a stock TID then you need an actually atmospheric blow off valve like a Blitz DD BOV , otherwise the stock BAR plugs into the TID from the turbo outlet pipe. BOV's are easy to hook up though. just plug them into a place after the turbo outlet and not too close to the intake and give it some vacuum and you're good to go.
THROTTLE CABLE: Simple, get a TII throttle cable
BRAKE BOOSTER VACUUM LINE: Lengthen your existing one to your original pipe if you can.
TRANSMISSION: You have a few options on this.
1. use your NA trans and upgrade your clutch to hold the extra power, but in the end you're gunna wish you did a full turbo drive train conversion cause the NA system works but isn't the strongest.
2. Use a turbo trans S4 or S5 and use a turbo clutch setup, turbo slave cylinder, starter and... get a custom drive shaft. There's ways of doing that, the easiest way is to buy Mazdatrix's custom TII to NA shaft which is basically a NA shaft with a turbo Trans connector and a NA rear end connector. You can also find a good drive shaft shop and take them a NA drive line and a TII drive line and have them switch the ends. Thats cheaper and works just as good. I'm only going to mention the words "NA Automatic Trans driveshaft" ... (I'm not recommending it in any way, don't flame) The NA auto shaft has in a sense a turbo front and a NA end BUT its a little shorter so you could strip your turbo trans's outlet if you run that shaft hard (boost) this shaft will get you by as in you car use it to move the car and maybe take it on a short test drive... thats all.
3. Turbo drivetrain setup, you will need : the turbo clutch setup, turbo slave cylinder, turbo starter, turbo drive shaft, turbo rear end and turbo half shafts and a few nuts and bolts here and there. Its all or none with this setup so you're either going this way or not but you can use S4 or S5 parts.
FUEL PUMP: You can use a stock turbo fuel pump, a S6 (3rd gen) fuel pump, a walbro 255 replacement, or if you're really desperate you can use your NA to start and drive the car and NOT BOOST. It will lean out if you use a NA pump and thats bad news.
EXHAUST DOWNPIPE: there's a few things you can do, get a stock TII precat/downpipe and mid pipe which bolts it up to the main cat OR get a aftermarket downpipe or custom one. You'll see the problem when you get to that point and you'll find its not too much work to make it work. Oh that NA exhaust system is kinda restrictive so redoing the entire system is advisable or it will effect your boost.
ECU: Get a N332 or N333 ECU, these are turbo ECU's and you need one. then along the way you can do what ever and maybe get a RTEK 2.1 or Apexi power FC, or a Haltec blah blah blah
BOOST GAUGE: Don't think you can just throw a turbo gauge cluster in it and the stock boost gauge will work, it won't unless its a S5 car. those are interchangeable and are plug and play. You can make the S4 stock boost gauge work but then again anything is possible and its not worth the trouble. Get a aftermarket boost gauge and mount it where ever.
There's a chance I could have left something out maily because I'm a little tired or its small enough that I just didn't remember it so if you have any questions and no flames just ask. Oh and pics on request.
I didn't include prices for everything cause they always vary and most times you get a "great deal" on a part so its your job to find this stuff. It may seem like a lot but its way worth it.
Any questions, comments, or corrections go ahead and reply or shoot me a PM.
but here is another one if you decide to get a 13brew from the 3rd gen rx7 engine i list some estimate prices
The allure of swapping to a newer engine with more power is attractive, especially with the 3rd Gen utilizing twin, sequential turbot’s and producing 255hp stock (over 55hp more than a Kouki 2nd Gen). In reality, swapping a 13B-REW twin-turbo engine from an 3rd Gen into an 2nd Gen is not easy. There are two known methods of addressing the engine mounting problem, and we well cover both options.
The most popular method is to adapt the stock 13B-REW engine mounts to the 2nd Gen chassis. Trying to adapt the stock 13B-REW engine mounts to the stock 2nd Gen engine mount locations on the chassis is a difficult proposition, and it's not a recommended design. The stock 13B-REW engine mounts are both located on the rear, side housing; the stock 2nd Gen 13BT engine mounts are located on the center, intermediate housing. This makes for a sharp angle to connect both "points". When researching engine mounts in general, the weight load vector is universally in a vertical plane; the engine (above) loads the mounts (below) straight up and down. Thus, we should try and keep this design structure in mind. The easiest way to accomplish this is to keep the stock 13B-REW engine mounts and weld in a new cross member toward the rear of the 2nd Gen engine "cradle". There is just enough space to weld in a 3" cross member, and getting the 13B-REW engine mounts to mount nicely is pretty easy. This allows you to keep almost all the 13B-REW components.
The optional method to welding in a cross member is to drill and tap the 13B-REW center housing to accept the stock 2nd Gen 13BT passenger engine mount; three M14 x 1.50 holes need to be drilled and tapped into the underside of the center, intermediate housing of the 13B-REW engine to accept the three 17mm bolts that secure the bottom of the engine to the passenger side engine mount. This requires a custom oil pan or the stock 2nd Gen 13BT oil pan. The stock 2nd Gen driver's side engine mount is secured by two nuts on already existing studs on the 13B-REW. The passenger side engine mount is mounted in the middle of the engine, necessitating the oil pan change. If you decide on using the 2nd Gen 13BT oil pan, you need to seal the front edge of the 13BT oil pan, as it's longer than the stock 13B-REW oil pan by about 1/4".
Once you take care of the mounting problem, the rest is pretty easy. An 2nd Gen clutch can be bolted onto the 3rd Gen stock flywheel if on a budget. The stock 2nd Gen transmission should mate with the 13B-REW with very few problems; if the 13B-REW came off an automatic transmission equipped chassis, there is an extra bolt hole in the bell housing, which will not mate up with anything on a stock, 5-speed 2nd Gen transmission. The 2nd Gen starter should fit with little fuss.
If you're going to run a stock 3rd Gen stock ECU, you'll need the engine harness, ignition system harness, igniter, and all coils from the 3rd Gen, minimally. Going to aftermarket EMS fuel and ignition control gives you more flexibility but may require additional ignition components. Choosing a Haltech EMS for control will allow you to use the stock 13B-REW ignition input (trigger wheel and magnetic pick-ups) and the stock 2nd Gen coils/igniters!
Due to the 13B-REW already using a front-mounted intercooler, this will pretty much require you to do the same. This would probably be one of the most expensive aftermarket components to get this conversion completed. A popular option is to run the GReddy elbow into the throttle body, as this is a polished aluminum piece versus the stock plastic pipe.
An upgrade fuel pump is almost a necessity, as the 13B-REW uses 2x550 + 2x850 versus the stock 4x550 on a 2nd Gen 13BT. A Walbro 255lph is more than adequate for this application.
The radiator hoses are slightly different for the 13B-REW, so mating up with the stock 2nd Gen 13BT radiator will take a little custom work. "Universal" ribbed, radiator hoses can be used as a cheap alternative. It's highly recommended to get an upgrade radiator if you still have the stock unit. The GReddy pulley kit is another option to slow down the radiator and alternator a bit and comes with its own special size belt.
Stock twin turbot’s will easily fit into the 2nd Gen engine bay, but a custom down pipe is required to fit with the rest of the 2nd Gen exhaust system. You can stick with the stock intake system on the twin turbot’s which will minimally require a pair of cone filters or equivalent.
Oil lines will need to be custom made to fit the 13B-REW oil fittings to the stock 2nd Gen oil cooler up front. The front oil cooler lines is close to the 13BT set-up, but the rear oil cooler line mounts higher up on the engine by the oil filter.
I have mirrored Paul Ko's infamous 13BT versus 13B-REW write-up here: http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FAQ/REW/BTvsBREW.html this page goes into detail in the differences between the two engines.
Engine Mounts:
13B-REW Engine: $2,000 (Price’s Vary, but on average they range between $1,500-$2,500) i recommend Japan2la
Clutch Kit: $350 (ACT Heavy Duty Clutch is only good for 450ib-ft of torque)
Down pipe: $100 (whether you’re going single or stock twin turbo, this exhaust pipe is needed to mate with the rest of the exhaust system)
Front-Mount Intercooler: $1,200 (The GReddy V-spec Front-Mount Intercooler kit is the standard for which all Front-Mount Intercoolers are judge for the 2nd Gen RX-7)
Oil Cooler Lines: $200 Typical cost to custom fabricating a pair of oil cooler lines from any name brand SS AN Manufacturer Earls, Russell’s, XRP)
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump: $150 (you can use a pair of Walbro 255lph fuel pumps for a little cheaper)
Haltech E6K: $1,500 (Optional stock 3rd Gen 13B-REW ECU, engine Harness, Ignition Components can be substituted)
Radiator: $500 (Cost of an upgrade radiator and custom radiator hoses to fit the 13B-REW Inlet/Outlets)
Greddy Elbow: $200 (Optional)
Greddy Pulley kit: 13B-REW: $120 (Optional)
Total Cost for 13B-REW: $6,950
Total Cost for 13B-REW W/Optional: $7,270
(Just on those estimations, we're looking at a cost of just the components.
The prices do not take into consideration on which route for engine mounting, as both require some special tools and labor for fabrication.
Prices are typical retail, so it's possible to get most of it discounted slightly)
The prices look pretty cheap to do this swap, but keep in mind the special labor it takes to get the engine mounted. If you have access to welding resources, fabricating a cross member should not be that bad. For those who need to pay someone else to do the work, be prepared for a large bill! A Kouki 13BT engine comes very close to what the 13B-REW offers, and power potential is very close at this point. I wouldn't normally recommend this swap, as a Cosmo engine swap is a little easier to do over the 3rd Gen 13B-REW. The Cosmo offers their own variation on a 2-rotor, sequential twin-turbo 13B; with Cosmo engine mounts being offered to make this conversion a drop-in affair, I would normally recommend going with the Cosmo engine swap.
and for the13BRE cosmo engine i was talking about
the Cosmo 13B-RE is the sequential twin-turbo on the Cosmo 13B-RE. Although it's almost impossible to retain the sequential operation of these twin-turbo (which requires the use of the stock Cosmo ECU), you can mod the sequential twin-turbo to run in non-sequential mode.
[Cosmo 13B-RE engine - ~$1,500]
Engine Mounts:
The hardest part of the engine install is the engine mounts. If you can fabricate some custom engine mounts, this'll make things a lot easier to bolt in. Luckily, you can buy these pre-made by the following vendors:
K2RD.com > http://www.k2rd.com/
FC3S.org > http://www.fc3s.org/parts_services/1...so_mounts.html
Transmission:
The Cosmo 13B-RE bolts onto the stock FC transmission with no problem. The Cosmo 13B-RE only comes with an automatic transmission option, so it will most likely have a counterweight and flex plate attached; if your engine did not come with a counterweight, you can use a Kouki 2nd /3rd Gen stock flywheel or automatic counterweight. If you are going to use an aftermarket (lightened) flywheel, the automatic counterweight is required. The automatic transmission counterweight makes it easy to install an aftermarket (lightened) flywheel in this case. Be sure to install a new pilot bearing and pilot bearing seal before installing the clutch.
[Lightened flywheel - $400; ACT Heavy Duty clutch kit - $350]
Turbo
The stock twin-turbo system does fit within the 2nd Gen engine bay. As mention above, it's almost impossible to control the sequential twin-turbo properly; modifying the twin-turbo to run in non-sequential mode is practical. Else, you can always go with a large single turbo set-up. All the aftermarket 2-rotor (13B) turbo manifolds should fit with very little work.
[HKS cast turbo manifold - $300; turbo - $1,500; oil/water SS AN lines and fittings - $200; intake piping - $100]
Exhaust
3-inch exhausts are the typical sizes for these engines. A custom down pipe is in order whether you're going with the stock twin-turbo system or large single set-up.
[Custom down pipe - $100; aftermarket exhaust - $800]
Intake/Intercooler
You might run into minor fitment issues with the upper intake manifold and/or the stock intake piping on the Cosmo 13B-RE if you're keeping the stock twin turbo. The stock Cosmo uses a front-mounted intercooler, so you'll need to have a front-mounted intercooler installed on the 2nd Gen.
[GReddy V-Spec front-mount intercooler kit - $1,200]
Oil Cooler Lines
If you're still running stock oil cooler lines, it's a good idea to run some SS braided lines for this project. If you already have a set of aftermarket oil cooler lines, they should fit the Cosmo 13B-RE with very little fuss.
[SS -10AN oil cooler lines with AN fittings - $200]
Cooling System
The stock 2nd Gen radiator is borderline for this project. You can also retrofit an 2nd Gen 13BT water pump housing, water pump, and thermostat housing to replace the odd Cosmo 13B-RE units; it's easier to find replacement belts, since the Cosmo 13B-RE uses both serpentine and v-belts. If you're keeping the stock Cosmo water pump (housing) both upper and lower radiator hoses might need to be addressed, as water pump housing outlets are slightly different.
[Upgrade radiator - $500; stock 2nd Gen water pump housing, water pump, gaskets - $300]
Fuel System
The stock fuel injectors are 4x550; identical to the 2nd Gen 13BT. It's always a good idea to upgrade the fuel pump. Keep in mind the stock fuel injectors are only good up to about 250bhp to the flywheel.
[Walbro upgrade fuel pump - $150]
EFI/Stand-alone ECU’s
The stock 2nd Gen 13BT ECU can push the Cosmo 13B-RE, with the exception of the sequential twin-turbo system. This is the beauty of this conversion. A stand-alone EMS would make for more efficient power.
[Haltech E6K with all options - $1,500]
Additional "Problems"
We've already mentioned the hood clearance problem if you're keeping the stock twin-turbo and intercooler piping. The front of the upper intake manifold may contact the hood slightly as does part of the power steering pump.
Bottom line...
The conversion can be done cheaply. The stock 2nd Gen turbo ECU (and ignition system) can control the Cosmo 13B-RE fairly well. To extract the full potential of this engine swap, a stand-alone EMS is highly recommended. Power ceiling can top over 500hp, but the budget starts to edge toward the $10,000 mark. This is not a very popular swap at the moment, but these engines are readily available from most Japan import engine dealers.
Cosmo 13B-RE Engine: $1,500 (Prices Vary but on average they range between $1,000-$2,000)
Engine Mounts: $250 (FC3S.Org offers their Cosmo engine mounts for $250. K2RD offers their Cosmo engine mounts for $450)
Flywheel: $400 (Typical price for lightened steel or aluminum flywheel. Counterweight should come with engine. A used Kouki 2nd Gen or 3rd Gen stock flywheel should be priced under $100)
Clutch Kit: $350 (Act Heavy Duty Clutch is only good for 450ib-ft of torque)
Down Pipe: $100 (Whether you're going single turbo or stock twin turbo, this custom exhaust pipe is needed to mate with the rest of the exhaust system.
Front-Mount Intercooler: $1,200 (The GReddy V-spec front-mount intercooler kit is the standard for which all front-mount intercoolers are judges for the 2nd Gen)
Walbro Fuel Pump: $150 (Recommended)
Oil Coolers Lines: $200 (Typical cost to custom fabrication a pair of oil cooler lines from any name brand SS AN manufacturer Earls, Russell’s, XRP)
Exhaust System: $800 (This might be optional. If you already have a (larger) aftermarket exhaust system, this might not be necessary. $500 average for a good "cat back" exhaust, and $300 added for a pre-silencer section to be made)
Radiator: $500 (Optional, But Recommended)
HKS Turbo Exhaust Manifold: $300 (Optional but if you're going single turbo, this is your cheapest option)
Turbo: $1,500 (Optional, Price is from Turbonetics)
Oil/Water lines for Turbo: $200 (Optional, require for single turbo. Includes prices for SS AN lines and fittings for both oil and water lines for turbo CHRA)
Intake pipe for Turbo: $100 (Optional, required for single turbo. Piping and silicone hoses to adapt single turbo to intercooler and for intake going into the turbo itself)
2nd Gen Water Pump + Housing: (Optional)
Haltech E6X: $1,500 (Optional, Highly Recommended for Single Turbo)
Total Cost for 13B-RE Stock Twin Turbo: $6,450
Total Cost for 13B-RE Single Turbo: $9,050
like i said its a estimate prices, if you want a 13brew, 13bre cosmo, or 13bt s5 engine i recommend japan2la if you need more info just let me know
Last edited by Rotary_Student; 08-02-10 at 02:10 AM. Reason: miss spell
08-02-10, 05:44 PM
#4
Its entirely possible and highly recommended for what you're planning to use the car for. You should know that with the setup there is less room for error, so do your research.
08-03-10, 09:29 AM
#6
Engine, Not Motor
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Honestly, the easiest thing for you to do is just sell the S5 NA engine, then get a TII swap (jspec or whatever) from a reliable source and do a standard TII swap. It all bolts right in. Instructions are well known and in the FAQ.
08-03-10, 10:50 AM
#7
Cost for a TII swap (entire drivetrain) is around 1000-1500 ($1000+ more if you rebuild the TII first). Maybe even less for you as you have 2 engines you can sell to offset the costs. It's an easy job and can be completed by 2 people in about 20 hrs.
The big money comes for HP gains after that, bigger turbo, injectors, stand alone, etc.
Also, reliability goes out the window when you start chasing big HP, as the frequency of rebuilds and repairs will increase.
The big money comes for HP gains after that, bigger turbo, injectors, stand alone, etc.
Also, reliability goes out the window when you start chasing big HP, as the frequency of rebuilds and repairs will increase.
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08-03-10, 04:23 PM
#10
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thats true sell it for your swap or keep it as a back up engine for the long run if its an good running opperation because LunchboxCritter is right if your going to slap in high power in the T2 Engine its not going to last that long, just make sure if you choose to keep the N/A Engine for back up when the T2 engine breaks, to rotate the rotors every month by spinning the clutch fan pulley to spin the rotors but its all up to you
