Im a retard when it comes to turbos, but would this work?
10-07-04, 10:41 PM
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Im a retard when it comes to turbos, but would this work?
Some questions, I just don't grasp the grey areas.
I want to do the turbo conversion, mr cake has insspired me, I've read his article over about 100 times now cause of interest and I know that I can do this, I know I can.
I have the tools, I don't have the parts, and I can make time.
However, before I jump into this, I think I need to understand the whole turbo thing completley, its just ******* stupid to want a turbo in your car if you have no idea how it "exactly" functions and performs.
If I were to do the TII conversion, and just run all my stock parts, no upgraded injectors, no upgraded fuel pump, no boost controller and no SAFC, would it work?
I mean just do the conversion, mount the turbo in there with the proper flange adapter and engine bay mods (to make room) and run the intercooler and piping, would it work?
What im worried about, is how to set boost up on a turbo, does it just push out a set amount (stock turbo) and doesn't go any higher? Or do I need some kind of electronic boost controller to control this? Last thing I want is 1500 degree exhaust temps flying around and my turbo starts glowing red hot and then fails.. One thing that I do know is that if the gas circulates through the turbo too much, it gets really really hot, too hot.
Or I run too much boost and get some detonation happening and blow some apex seals.
SO here are the Q's really
1. What controlls how much boos the turbo kicks out (stock), does it have a bolt or a lever on the turbo for a setting?
2. I took a look at an exhaust manifold for the turbo, heres a link click here
In the pic you see a nice chromed manifold. However, there are two exhaust ports, one on the left of the pic, and one coming out facing us?? I thought all the exhaust gas runs through the turbo, then through a down pipe thats connected to the turbo? If there are two exhaust ports on that thing, then only half of the exhaust gases are going to pass through the turbo???
Like I said, im a retard when it comes to this..
3. Also on that exhaust manifold theres a little nipple for something, what in the hell is this for?
These are alot of questions, and am not expecting answers for all of them, but if you know the answer to one of em, can you post it? Your information is extremley usefull here, you guys are the pros, im here to learn.
heh.. im ordering a book thats been recommended, called maximum boost. Im told that its pretty good for explaining the turbo mechanics and what everything does thats part of a turbo setup..
Until then, I just want to verify some things
thx guys.
I want to do the turbo conversion, mr cake has insspired me, I've read his article over about 100 times now cause of interest and I know that I can do this, I know I can.
I have the tools, I don't have the parts, and I can make time.
However, before I jump into this, I think I need to understand the whole turbo thing completley, its just ******* stupid to want a turbo in your car if you have no idea how it "exactly" functions and performs.
If I were to do the TII conversion, and just run all my stock parts, no upgraded injectors, no upgraded fuel pump, no boost controller and no SAFC, would it work?
I mean just do the conversion, mount the turbo in there with the proper flange adapter and engine bay mods (to make room) and run the intercooler and piping, would it work?
What im worried about, is how to set boost up on a turbo, does it just push out a set amount (stock turbo) and doesn't go any higher? Or do I need some kind of electronic boost controller to control this? Last thing I want is 1500 degree exhaust temps flying around and my turbo starts glowing red hot and then fails.. One thing that I do know is that if the gas circulates through the turbo too much, it gets really really hot, too hot.
Or I run too much boost and get some detonation happening and blow some apex seals.
SO here are the Q's really
1. What controlls how much boos the turbo kicks out (stock), does it have a bolt or a lever on the turbo for a setting?
2. I took a look at an exhaust manifold for the turbo, heres a link click here
In the pic you see a nice chromed manifold. However, there are two exhaust ports, one on the left of the pic, and one coming out facing us?? I thought all the exhaust gas runs through the turbo, then through a down pipe thats connected to the turbo? If there are two exhaust ports on that thing, then only half of the exhaust gases are going to pass through the turbo???
Like I said, im a retard when it comes to this..
3. Also on that exhaust manifold theres a little nipple for something, what in the hell is this for?
These are alot of questions, and am not expecting answers for all of them, but if you know the answer to one of em, can you post it? Your information is extremley usefull here, you guys are the pros, im here to learn.
heh.. im ordering a book thats been recommended, called maximum boost. Im told that its pretty good for explaining the turbo mechanics and what everything does thats part of a turbo setup..
Until then, I just want to verify some things
thx guys.
Last edited by BlaCkPlaGUE; 10-07-04 at 10:43 PM.
10-07-04, 10:47 PM
#2
...94% correct.
No. Bare minimum you need a boost controller and guage. I'd highly suggest an SAFC and an A/F guage for "rough" tuning. Then the most boost you could really do safely is about 6lbs on pump gas.
Good luck. The best way to learn is to just jump in it and do and throw money around like you got three hands...
Good luck. The best way to learn is to just jump in it and do and throw money around like you got three hands...
10-07-04, 10:51 PM
#3
...94% correct.
Originally Posted by BlaCkPlaGUE
1. What controlls how much boos the turbo kicks out (stock), does it have a bolt or a lever on the turbo for a setting?
2. I took a look at an exhaust manifold for the turbo, heres a link click here
In the pic you see a nice chromed manifold. However, there are two exhaust ports, one on the left of the pic, and one coming out facing us?? I thought all the exhaust gas runs through the turbo, then through a down pipe thats connected to the turbo? If there are two exhaust ports on that thing, then only half of the exhaust gases are going to pass through the turbo???
In the pic you see a nice chromed manifold. However, there are two exhaust ports, one on the left of the pic, and one coming out facing us?? I thought all the exhaust gas runs through the turbo, then through a down pipe thats connected to the turbo? If there are two exhaust ports on that thing, then only half of the exhaust gases are going to pass through the turbo???
Like I said, im a retard when it comes to this..
3. Also on that exhaust manifold theres a little nipple for something, what in the hell is this for?
Good choice in reading material.
10-07-04, 10:59 PM
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I dont think thats really a nipple. Maybe part of the casting that just never got taken off. My HKS manifold had some like that but nothing that big
Either way, that is a manifold for a T4. You need to get a stock FC turbo manifold if youre gonna use the stock fc turbo.
Either way, that is a manifold for a T4. You need to get a stock FC turbo manifold if youre gonna use the stock fc turbo.
10-08-04, 02:37 AM
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haha, the funny thing is that if some one not being blackplague posted this tread i bet alot of the people that have been here longer wound have been search on line and **** like that lol, u guys ae funny, but i know that people don't search and blakcplague has help a **** load of people, so i ma help out lol, naw but u can run the turbo ecu if u want just to be safe, my friend runs it, but yeah u can use the boost controller, but im gona ask my friend if he upgraded the injectors, oh but i will higly recommend making sure u upgrade ur fule pump
10-08-04, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by slidebabyslide
haha, the funny thing is that if some one not being blackplague posted this tread i bet alot of the people that have been here longer wound have been search on line and **** like that lol, u guys ae funny, but i know that people don't search and blakcplague has help a **** load of people, so i ma help out lol, naw but u can run the turbo ecu if u want just to be safe, my friend runs it, but yeah u can use the boost controller, but im gona ask my friend if he upgraded the injectors, oh but i will higly recommend making sure u upgrade ur fule pump
thanks, i think??
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10-08-04, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BlaCkPlaGUE
alright, stock manifold, got it.
Do I HAVE To have a turbo ECU to run the boost properly? or can I just use the boost controller?
thx
Do I HAVE To have a turbo ECU to run the boost properly? or can I just use the boost controller?
thx
10-08-04, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by BlaCkPlaGUE
alright, stock manifold, got it.
Do I HAVE To have a turbo ECU to run the boost properly? or can I just use the boost controller?
thx
Do I HAVE To have a turbo ECU to run the boost properly? or can I just use the boost controller?
thx
You can controll the boost through a boost controller...
what you really need the ECU, sensor and AFM for is to do your fuel.
You might want to think about doing a stand alone EMS if you have the cash. It will save you some headaches and allow you to tune the car more efectively.
10-08-04, 12:38 PM
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if u don't want to pay alot for a electronic boost controller u can get a manuel, it's cheaper but lees safer, but if u want to run 6psi or less it's cool, u can get a cheap one for about 40 bucks and a really good one for about 80 bucks
10-08-04, 12:48 PM
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Some of the replies to this thread really hurt my brain...
Remember that this is NOT a TII conversion. Only a few of the TII parts are used. A TII conversion involves swapping ALL the non-turbo parts over to their TII equivelant.
Now, to your question. If you could somehow keep the boost to about 4PSI, then you'll be safe running the stock fuel system. If you port the snot out of of the wastegate, you should be able to achieve this. However, you will not see any (worthwhile) power gains at 4 PSI.
Crash course on turbos:
As we all know, a turbocharger is simply a turbine (which sits in the exhaust stream) connected via a shaft to a compressor (which sits in the intake). Exhaust gasses spin the turbine, thus spinning the compressor, thus cramming air into the engine. This is "boost".
The amount of boost a turbocharger creates is dependant on the wastegate. The wastegate allows exhaust gasses to bypass the turbine and head directly into the rest of the exhaust system/atmosphere. The wastegate used in the stock RX-7 is an internal flapper door, that bypasses one of the runners to the turbine straight into the downpipe/cat. This wastegate is controlled by an actuator. The actuator is a diaphram in a can, with spring tension against it. The diaphram moves a rod in and out, which connects to the wastegate flapper. On one side of the diaphram is atmospheric pressure. On the other side, there is a feed to the pressurized air coming from the compressor. Therefore, your boost is set by the spring tension. As pressurized air pushes against the diaphram, it begins to overcome the spring. The diaphram then opens the wastegate, bypassing exhaust past the turbine. The turbo then creates less boost, the spring forces the diaphram back, and the wastegate closes up. This action results in a balance between how far the wastegate is open and how much boost is produced. It's a closed loop control.
Now, a boost controller works by allowing the wastgate actuator to see LESS boost pressure. This keeps the wastegate closed, causing the turbine to spin faster, and the compressor to move more air. When the desired boost pressure is reached, the boost controller allows the actuator to see more pressure, thus opening it up a little and maintaining that higher boost pressure...
It is in this way that a boost controller can only raise boost, not lower it past what the wastegate would naturally achieve. If you want to lower boost below what the wastegates natural setting is, you need to put in a softer spring and/or port the wastegate to make it larger.
Least of your worries...Turbos almost always glow red under boost. They turn sort of orange and transparent. Very cool.
Well, sort of. But your exhaust gasses are leaving the turbine very quickly. So it's not a concern.
There's your problem. So you either have to limit boost (NO FUN!) or increase fuel and retard ignition.
Covered.
The large square one is where the turbine housing bolts up. The smaller flange is for the wastegate.
No idea. Probably for a heat shield or EGT probe.
Note that this manifold WILL NOT clear the NA lower intake. I have tried. However, if you use the spacer it will, but may interfere with the strut tower (I have not tried to fit this in a car).
Good. That is the God book of turbochargers.
Huh? First of all, you don't need a boost controller. In fact, I wouldn't even recommend he purchase one as it will keep him out of trouble.
As for your second statement regarding the amount of boost...Care to explain this? Prove to me it's not 100% wrong and I'll give you a shiney nickel.
No. In this setup the ECU doesn't have any control over boost. You could use a boost controller, but until you are familiar with turbo setups, don't. Boost controllers get a lot of people into trouble.
NO NO NO! A boost controller will only allow you to RAISE boost.
Definitly.
Originally Posted by BlaCkPlaGUE
If I were to do the TII conversion, and just run all my stock parts, no upgraded injectors, no upgraded fuel pump, no boost controller and no SAFC, would it work?
I mean just do the conversion, mount the turbo in there with the proper flange adapter and engine bay mods (to make room) and run the intercooler and piping, would it work?
I mean just do the conversion, mount the turbo in there with the proper flange adapter and engine bay mods (to make room) and run the intercooler and piping, would it work?
Now, to your question. If you could somehow keep the boost to about 4PSI, then you'll be safe running the stock fuel system. If you port the snot out of of the wastegate, you should be able to achieve this. However, you will not see any (worthwhile) power gains at 4 PSI.
What im worried about, is how to set boost up on a turbo, does it just push out a set amount (stock turbo) and doesn't go any higher?
As we all know, a turbocharger is simply a turbine (which sits in the exhaust stream) connected via a shaft to a compressor (which sits in the intake). Exhaust gasses spin the turbine, thus spinning the compressor, thus cramming air into the engine. This is "boost".
The amount of boost a turbocharger creates is dependant on the wastegate. The wastegate allows exhaust gasses to bypass the turbine and head directly into the rest of the exhaust system/atmosphere. The wastegate used in the stock RX-7 is an internal flapper door, that bypasses one of the runners to the turbine straight into the downpipe/cat. This wastegate is controlled by an actuator. The actuator is a diaphram in a can, with spring tension against it. The diaphram moves a rod in and out, which connects to the wastegate flapper. On one side of the diaphram is atmospheric pressure. On the other side, there is a feed to the pressurized air coming from the compressor. Therefore, your boost is set by the spring tension. As pressurized air pushes against the diaphram, it begins to overcome the spring. The diaphram then opens the wastegate, bypassing exhaust past the turbine. The turbo then creates less boost, the spring forces the diaphram back, and the wastegate closes up. This action results in a balance between how far the wastegate is open and how much boost is produced. It's a closed loop control.
Or do I need some kind of electronic boost controller to control this?
It is in this way that a boost controller can only raise boost, not lower it past what the wastegate would naturally achieve. If you want to lower boost below what the wastegates natural setting is, you need to put in a softer spring and/or port the wastegate to make it larger.
Last thing I want is 1500 degree exhaust temps flying around and my turbo starts glowing red hot and then fails..
One thing that I do know is that if the gas circulates through the turbo too much, it gets really really hot, too hot.
Or I run too much boost and get some detonation happening and blow some apex seals.
1. What controlls how much boos the turbo kicks out (stock), does it have a bolt or a lever on the turbo for a setting?
2. I took a look at an exhaust manifold for the turbo, heres a link click here
In the pic you see a nice chromed manifold. However, there are two exhaust ports, one on the left of the pic, and one coming out facing us??
In the pic you see a nice chromed manifold. However, there are two exhaust ports, one on the left of the pic, and one coming out facing us??
3. Also on that exhaust manifold theres a little nipple for something, what in the hell is this for?
Note that this manifold WILL NOT clear the NA lower intake. I have tried. However, if you use the spacer it will, but may interfere with the strut tower (I have not tried to fit this in a car).
heh.. im ordering a book thats been recommended, called maximum boost. Im told that its pretty good for explaining the turbo mechanics and what everything does thats part of a turbo setup..
No. Bare minimum you need a boost controller and guage. I'd highly suggest an SAFC and an A/F guage for "rough" tuning. Then the most boost you could really do safely is about 6lbs on pump gas.
As for your second statement regarding the amount of boost...Care to explain this? Prove to me it's not 100% wrong and I'll give you a shiney nickel.
Do I HAVE To have a turbo ECU to run the boost properly? or can I just use the boost controller?
You can controll the boost through a boost controller...
You might want to think about doing a stand alone EMS if you have the cash. It will save you some headaches and allow you to tune the car more efectively.
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 10-08-04 at 12:50 PM.
10-08-04, 04:42 PM
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WOW, thats all I gotta say. I was hoping that you'd see this aaron, I really appreciate your time in making that reply, answered all the questions that I posted.
Another quicky, just to understand things better, but if my wastegate were permanantly sealed shut, would that mean that the turbo would keep on pushing a higher PSI and eventually create way to much boost and blow up, along with the engine? Again, not that I want to do that, im just trying to grasp all of this.
Im especially glad that I don't have to run a boost controller or a stock turbo ecu... that would have been just more hassle to install.
I think I'll stick with the manual controller, and try to achieve 6psi or so.
For now Im gonna hunt down the turbo manifold and turbo, so if any of you guys have one for sale, I'll be posting that request in the FS section in a week or so.
That extension flange that you made aaron looks easy enoughe, I have access to an arc welder and I think I'll be ok.
This is gonna be fun! I can't wait to get started. The first thing im gonna do is get all the parts, then start the labor.
So basically my plan is this.
Aquire the stock TII manifold and turbo, get myself some TII injectors (used and then cleaned at cruzin) and a fuel pump. Get myself a manual boost controller and a cheap greddy BOV or something, oh yea can't forget to start filling it with premium to prevent detonation with my high compression rotors. I planned on getting the SAFC anyways, turbo or not, so no big deal there, the stock intercooler shouldn't be too much or too hard to find either.
I'll just go from there and plan some more.
Thanks guys, and thanks aaron, getting advice from the guy that did this is great.
Brent
thanks
Another quicky, just to understand things better, but if my wastegate were permanantly sealed shut, would that mean that the turbo would keep on pushing a higher PSI and eventually create way to much boost and blow up, along with the engine? Again, not that I want to do that, im just trying to grasp all of this.
Im especially glad that I don't have to run a boost controller or a stock turbo ecu... that would have been just more hassle to install.
I think I'll stick with the manual controller, and try to achieve 6psi or so.
For now Im gonna hunt down the turbo manifold and turbo, so if any of you guys have one for sale, I'll be posting that request in the FS section in a week or so.
That extension flange that you made aaron looks easy enoughe, I have access to an arc welder and I think I'll be ok.
This is gonna be fun! I can't wait to get started. The first thing im gonna do is get all the parts, then start the labor.
So basically my plan is this.
Aquire the stock TII manifold and turbo, get myself some TII injectors (used and then cleaned at cruzin) and a fuel pump. Get myself a manual boost controller and a cheap greddy BOV or something, oh yea can't forget to start filling it with premium to prevent detonation with my high compression rotors
. I planned on getting the SAFC anyways, turbo or not, so no big deal there, the stock intercooler shouldn't be too much or too hard to find either. I'll just go from there and plan some more.
Thanks guys, and thanks aaron, getting advice from the guy that did this is great.
Brent
thanks
10-09-04, 10:47 AM
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If your wastegate was welded shut, the turbo would continue to build speed and boost until it reached it's stall point. At this point, the compressor is moving too quickly to actually pump air, and instead just churn the air around. This means that at that point, boost will quickly drop off. If the turbo continues to spool, it won't be long for this world...However, due to the massive boost spike, your engine would already have been killed, so I doubt you'll be pushing enough exhaust to keep the turbo spooled. 
Don't waste time with a boost controller in the beginning. You don't need it. Especially a mechanical controller, which can be very twitchey to tune (can you say "overboost"?).
Don't waste time with a boost controller in the beginning. You don't need it. Especially a mechanical controller, which can be very twitchey to tune (can you say "overboost"?).
10-16-04, 12:26 AM
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jesus dont u ever go to bed or work on your car blackplauge??? haha ur up to like 4xx posts now. i remember when u were a noob and had like 5 posts. now ur caught up to me
good luck with ur turbo project. dont forget knock sensor. upgraded injectors, some kinda piggy back fuel or afc, t2 ecu. are you converting the whole car to t2? or just turboing the car. if you just turbo a N/A then talk to sonicrat. he did it and boosts retarded numbers.
good luck with ur turbo project. dont forget knock sensor. upgraded injectors, some kinda piggy back fuel or afc, t2 ecu. are you converting the whole car to t2? or just turboing the car. if you just turbo a N/A then talk to sonicrat. he did it and boosts retarded numbers.
10-16-04, 02:34 AM
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Just turboing the car. Im still trying to grasp the whole wastegate thing. I do know how the wastegate works, im just unfamiliar in a few things. Im gonna get that book along with my parts, by the time all my parts are here I will know exactly how to do this.
lol@ the posts, I love this place, its so ******* awesome. I've never been to a forum with so many people owning the same exact car! People like aaron, nzconvertible, wayne, and all the rest of you guys have helped me so much that im hooked.
Right now im working on my TB painting article. I have pics of the COMPLETE dissasembly for the TB, all I have to do now is finish up how to prep the little pieces, what paint to use, and what it looks like after its done! A small thing to bring back in return for all the answered questions.. heh..
Post count doesn't really mean anything, what does mean something is when you recognize a user for his knowledge.
thanks a bundle guys.
lol@ the posts, I love this place, its so ******* awesome. I've never been to a forum with so many people owning the same exact car! People like aaron, nzconvertible, wayne, and all the rest of you guys have helped me so much that im hooked.
Right now im working on my TB painting article. I have pics of the COMPLETE dissasembly for the TB, all I have to do now is finish up how to prep the little pieces, what paint to use, and what it looks like after its done! A small thing to bring back in return for all the answered questions.. heh..
Post count doesn't really mean anything, what does mean something is when you recognize a user for his knowledge.
thanks a bundle guys.
10-16-04, 03:38 AM
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I'd chime in, but there's nothing useful to say. Aaron pretty much covered everything there is to cover. A good idea is to hit up http://www.howstuffworks.com and check out the turbo chargers, it should clue you up on what they're for and how it all works. Though, i definatly suggest upgrading injectors at least to TII and running an S-AFC, otherwise it'd be a good idea to hop over to the TII setup (afm, pressure sensor, ecu)
10-26-04, 11:06 AM
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Exactly the same as an internal wastegate, but external.
Normally, a pipe will come from the manifold runners to the external gate, which essentially works the same as the internal one. It contains a vacuum controller plunger, flapper or other valve that dumps excess exhaust past the turbo. External gates can normally be made larger then internal ones due to the space available.
Normally, a pipe will come from the manifold runners to the external gate, which essentially works the same as the internal one. It contains a vacuum controller plunger, flapper or other valve that dumps excess exhaust past the turbo. External gates can normally be made larger then internal ones due to the space available.
10-26-04, 11:13 AM
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Last quick question, where's a good place the connect the vacuum line to the wastegate diaphram. In regards to the stock turbo, with no boost controller, where does it connect to?
10-26-04, 11:41 AM
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when the wastegat opens up it allows the exhaust to go through the wastegate and not the turbo. which than will not allow the turbo to over boost. Am i right.
and also on a external wastegate it is not only attatched to the exhaust manifold but is attatched to the down pipe, so when the wastegate opens up it can simply bypass the turbo and have some way to get back into the exhaust. Is that right, or do i have no clue what i'm talking about.
and also on a external wastegate it is not only attatched to the exhaust manifold but is attatched to the down pipe, so when the wastegate opens up it can simply bypass the turbo and have some way to get back into the exhaust. Is that right, or do i have no clue what i'm talking about.
10-26-04, 02:43 PM
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There should be a nipple on the compressor output for the wastegate.
Correct.
Also correct. Though a lot of people just let the wastegate vent into the atmosphere instead of back into the exhaust.
when the wastegat opens up it allows the exhaust to go through the wastegate and not the turbo. which than will not allow the turbo to over boost. Am i right.
and also on a external wastegate it is not only attatched to the exhaust manifold but is attatched to the down pipe, so when the wastegate opens up it can simply bypass the turbo and have some way to get back into the exhaust. Is that right, or do i have no clue what i'm talking about.