I want turbo on my n/a
04-25-02, 12:10 AM
#1
I want turbo on my n/a
Ok, I need some advice from somebody that knows what I need or knows how to do this. I have an n/a rx7 and have decided that when the motor goes, I'm going turbo using the same high comp rotors. So I need a complete list and what I need to install the turbo and make it run properly without being destructive to the engine, I'll probably rebuild with 3mm apex seals. So if somebody can tell me exactly what to do that would be great from engine to drivetrain.
04-25-02, 12:24 AM
#3
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
04-25-02, 09:36 AM
#5
I came, I saw, I boosted.
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I think you stole those exact words from me from the last NA -> TII post yesterday....
Anyways... damn, why would you want to use the high comp rotors if you are rebuilding your engine anyways???????
I lot of shops will proabably trade your high comp ones for TII low comp ones....
You can shove in way more boost, without risking detonation as much at all.
If you are ging to rebuild- might as well buy a blown TII engine for dirt cheap, and go from there.
Anyways... damn, why would you want to use the high comp rotors if you are rebuilding your engine anyways???????
I lot of shops will proabably trade your high comp ones for TII low comp ones....
You can shove in way more boost, without risking detonation as much at all.
If you are ging to rebuild- might as well buy a blown TII engine for dirt cheap, and go from there.
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04-25-02, 01:40 PM
#8
Need donor car in Fairfax
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thats true, but there are also many tiny things you have to do that you can forget about..(longer reverse light cable...throttle cable...things like that)
04-25-02, 02:39 PM
#10
I came, I saw, I boosted.
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For putting in an entire TII engine, not just turboing the N/A engine.
Hey- Aaron- I making the adaptor plate up now- my buddy who is at a tool shop is cutting it out as we speak....
Didn't you say that you'd prefer if you had made your plate 2 3/4" instead of 2 1/2" thick?
Since the innner fender well is getting "remodeled" (read: sledgehammer") anyways- I wouldn't mind a little more clearence of the intake manifold...
Hey- Aaron- I making the adaptor plate up now- my buddy who is at a tool shop is cutting it out as we speak....
Didn't you say that you'd prefer if you had made your plate 2 3/4" instead of 2 1/2" thick?
Since the innner fender well is getting "remodeled" (read: sledgehammer") anyways- I wouldn't mind a little more clearence of the intake manifold...
04-25-02, 02:55 PM
#11
Engine, Not Motor
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Yes, I would say to include an extra 1/4"....
Also, I doubt you will find enough space to swing a hammer of the required size to "modify" the fender/frame. Time to get out the sawzall and welder...
Also, I doubt you will find enough space to swing a hammer of the required size to "modify" the fender/frame. Time to get out the sawzall and welder...
04-25-02, 03:43 PM
#12
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a couple questions
I'm thinking of doing the same thing(turbocharging the N/A motor) and was wondering if the TII lower intake can be used on the N/A motor? also can the TII tranny be bolted up to the N/A motor?
04-25-02, 03:51 PM
#13
Engine, Not Motor
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Re: a couple questions
If you have to ask...
No.
Yes.
I'm thinking of doing the same thing(turbocharging the N/A motor) and was wondering if the TII lower intake can be used on the N/A motor?
also can the TII tranny be bolted up to the N/A motor?
04-25-02, 04:30 PM
#14
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Hey Aaron Cake hows the kit coming along??
Saw th epics a while ago but just wondering how its going.
Anyways, Bambam7 you dont need a very big hammer just use a regular one, it may take like 5-10 minutes hammering but the wastegate will clear
Saw th epics a while ago but just wondering how its going.
Anyways, Bambam7 you dont need a very big hammer just use a regular one, it may take like 5-10 minutes hammering but the wastegate will clear
04-25-02, 04:42 PM
#15
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Originally posted by crasher2
You are better off going and buying a TII than trying to convert yours, I have a list if you want it, PM me with your email and i will send it to you.
You are better off going and buying a TII than trying to convert yours, I have a list if you want it, PM me with your email and i will send it to you.
04-25-02, 08:16 PM
#17
I came, I saw, I boosted.
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Originally posted by Jettman
Alright, if you can't bolt the lower TII intake manifold to the N/A block then how about the upper TII intake manifold to the lower N/A manifold?
Alright, if you can't bolt the lower TII intake manifold to the N/A block then how about the upper TII intake manifold to the lower N/A manifold?
No it won't the TII intake is 4 port all the way, and it's MUCH closer to the block than the N/A manifold (To clear the turbo)
04-25-02, 09:10 PM
#19
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With converting an N/A to FI, the major concern will be holding the drivetrain together. It's all about how you set the car up, but you can yield more power out of this than most N/A guys will know what to do with.
"Don't mean to be rude, but if you have to ask, you cannot do this conversion."
Not really. If you have to ask, you have a long way to go, to get a happily running turboed 6-port. That doesn't mean you cannot do the conversion. It means you have to search the forum, and work hard to understand the reasons the conversion is difficult. I asked Peter (RICE RACING), about this very topic for a friend of mine awhile back. Like always, I gave him very specific details, and he gave me a good response.
Portion of my email to him:
His response:
"Don't mean to be rude, but if you have to ask, you cannot do this conversion."
Not really. If you have to ask, you have a long way to go, to get a happily running turboed 6-port. That doesn't mean you cannot do the conversion. It means you have to search the forum, and work hard to understand the reasons the conversion is difficult. I asked Peter (RICE RACING), about this very topic for a friend of mine awhile back. Like always, I gave him very specific details, and he gave me a good response.
Portion of my email to him:
Peter,
Currently my friend is turboing his N/A, and he is
very worried about it.
Here is the setup:
-S4 Turbo/Manifold, with ported wastegate, and lightly ported exhaust housing.
Stock wheels.
-Stock port S4 6-port (9.4 CR), with ports wired open.
-Apexi ITC for some degree of timing retard.
-HKS AFR stock primaries, 680cc secondaries
-Stock T2 IC, front mounted and possibly water misted (comments?)
-Water injection
-Straight flowing TID/K&N
-2.5 or 3" Downpipe to N1 exhaust
The main question here is what kind of boost is safe for rotors of that CR, and what
kind of timing retard (if any) should he run with the ITC. Apparently the
compressor on the stock turbo is fairly efficient to around 12-14psi, but with those
rotors it might be too much. With water injection, and 10.8-11.4:1 A/F tuning, how
safe would this setup be? How restrictive are the 6-port engines/manifolds, as far
as "breathing" in comparison to a 4-port 13BT? What kind of power can he make
"safely" on 94 pump gas? What about on Race gas? What EGTs should he shoot for
across the board?
Currently my friend is turboing his N/A, and he is
very worried about it.
Here is the setup:
-S4 Turbo/Manifold, with ported wastegate, and lightly ported exhaust housing.
Stock wheels.
-Stock port S4 6-port (9.4 CR), with ports wired open.
-Apexi ITC for some degree of timing retard.
-HKS AFR stock primaries, 680cc secondaries
-Stock T2 IC, front mounted and possibly water misted (comments?)
-Water injection
-Straight flowing TID/K&N
-2.5 or 3" Downpipe to N1 exhaust
The main question here is what kind of boost is safe for rotors of that CR, and what
kind of timing retard (if any) should he run with the ITC. Apparently the
compressor on the stock turbo is fairly efficient to around 12-14psi, but with those
rotors it might be too much. With water injection, and 10.8-11.4:1 A/F tuning, how
safe would this setup be? How restrictive are the 6-port engines/manifolds, as far
as "breathing" in comparison to a 4-port 13BT? What kind of power can he make
"safely" on 94 pump gas? What about on Race gas? What EGTs should he shoot for
across the board?
Hey Brian
Stock 6 port engines can be run up to 1bar or around 14.2psi without ant
real problem what so ever....There was a dyno test in one magazine I have
from years ago that showed what power could be achieved with one of these
"crate" engines from Japan when we were all into N/A ported engines.
I would recommend the following, the highest octane pump gas available to
you, A/F ratio of 11.1 to 11.2:1 and no more spark advance than 12 deg BTDC
at maximum, also try to get a charge temp (after IC) of no more than 45degC,
if you stay within these limits then the engine will last a long time and be
a strong performer..estimated BHP will be around 310 to 330 with race gas
you can run the engine to 11.8:1 but with around 15 to 18deg of advance also
increase the boost to around 18psi, 20 would be the limit for 100octane
aviation fuel, with higher octane say race blend turbo fuel you could safely
run 1.5 bar or close to 22psi....power would be around 340 to 350 BHP @
7000rpm. 7000revs is about the limit of the stock porting ALSO THE TURBO IS
A MASSIVE RESTRICTION, you will notice that there is not a proportional
increase in power with extra boost, it is just that the turbo is far too
small.
I strongly suggest water spraying on the IC and ducting it if you front
mount it, enclose the entire IC with a channel duct to force ALL the air
through the front of the IC this will lift the efficiency from 55% to around
70% ! I did this to my own car many years ago when I ran the same set up.
Also the water spray will help as well around another 5 to 7% eff on top, I
highly recommend he run water injection, to stop detonation, either that or
at least do all the other things duct the cooler and water spray it from
10psi onwards. The air temp goes stupidly high with these IC's even when
front mounted.
Keep the 2.5" exhaust as any larger with the small turbo will cause mid
range boost spikes with top end drop off in boost pressure (common problem)
with that turbo.
The water injection would be a good thing to have on that set up, if not you
can still run it just I maybe suggest talking 2 to 3 degrees of the timing
suggestions I gave you.
Keep in touch.
Regards.
Peter.
Stock 6 port engines can be run up to 1bar or around 14.2psi without ant
real problem what so ever....There was a dyno test in one magazine I have
from years ago that showed what power could be achieved with one of these
"crate" engines from Japan when we were all into N/A ported engines.
I would recommend the following, the highest octane pump gas available to
you, A/F ratio of 11.1 to 11.2:1 and no more spark advance than 12 deg BTDC
at maximum, also try to get a charge temp (after IC) of no more than 45degC,
if you stay within these limits then the engine will last a long time and be
a strong performer..estimated BHP will be around 310 to 330 with race gas
you can run the engine to 11.8:1 but with around 15 to 18deg of advance also
increase the boost to around 18psi, 20 would be the limit for 100octane
aviation fuel, with higher octane say race blend turbo fuel you could safely
run 1.5 bar or close to 22psi....power would be around 340 to 350 BHP @
7000rpm. 7000revs is about the limit of the stock porting ALSO THE TURBO IS
A MASSIVE RESTRICTION, you will notice that there is not a proportional
increase in power with extra boost, it is just that the turbo is far too
small.
I strongly suggest water spraying on the IC and ducting it if you front
mount it, enclose the entire IC with a channel duct to force ALL the air
through the front of the IC this will lift the efficiency from 55% to around
70% ! I did this to my own car many years ago when I ran the same set up.
Also the water spray will help as well around another 5 to 7% eff on top, I
highly recommend he run water injection, to stop detonation, either that or
at least do all the other things duct the cooler and water spray it from
10psi onwards. The air temp goes stupidly high with these IC's even when
front mounted.
Keep the 2.5" exhaust as any larger with the small turbo will cause mid
range boost spikes with top end drop off in boost pressure (common problem)
with that turbo.
The water injection would be a good thing to have on that set up, if not you
can still run it just I maybe suggest talking 2 to 3 degrees of the timing
suggestions I gave you.
Keep in touch.
Regards.
Peter.
04-26-02, 12:16 AM
#20
i'm gonna do it
Ok the more you guys say "you can't do it" the more I wanna show everbody that I can do it and it work properly, c'mon think about it even with high cmp rotors using 3mm apex seals. You wouldn't need mammoth amounts of boost to make power and if you could keep the mixture right and enough timing retard it is very possible, and you don't need a whole 4 port t11 engine, you could flow more air with 6 ports, right? Just think you could use boost control to run like 1-2 lbs of boost with normal driving cause you got high comp to run with, and good amount of boost for racing. So if right, correct me if I'm wrong at the most I would need like a good turbo from a t11, manifold with spacer for clearance, exhaust to match, a way to connect oil&coolant lines(I could use a t11 rotor housing for that ****), custom piped i/c, bigger secondary injectors, fuel pump, rising fpr, some type of piggy back fuel comp, maybe a drivetrain from a t11, colder spark plugs, maybe a jacob's ignition with knock sensor, and maybe a few other minor things, and I bet my car could smoke most turbos out there, even s5. Let me know what you think about that.
04-26-02, 12:43 AM
#22
I'm with stupid -----^
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Ummm.. No....
The 6 port does NOT flow more then the 4 port..
A boost controller will NOT keep you at 1 - 2 psi
Aaron was correct, YOU can not do this conversion
IF you do attempt it, the only thing that the car will be smoking is itself...
The 6 port does NOT flow more then the 4 port..
A boost controller will NOT keep you at 1 - 2 psi
Aaron was correct, YOU can not do this conversion
IF you do attempt it, the only thing that the car will be smoking is itself...
04-26-02, 12:51 AM
#23
Can you back all these claims with answers, can you? With pineapple racing sleeves in the auxilliary ports it could direct a lot of air into the chambers which you would need, the turbo would take care of the rest. And tell me exactly why you think a boost controller couldn't keep you at say 2psi, given the wastegate was big enough, am I right? I believe it could happen because what does the boost controller do, it controls spring pressure on the wastegate when it reaches 2 or 3 psi or whatever psi it would flow the rest of the air past the turbine, thus you could get 2 psi boost. If not everything I've read that is written about turbos and their components in big publications is bullshit.
04-26-02, 01:53 AM
#24
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#1 The 6 port configuration was used on the NA's to give them better low and mid range grunt.. However if you take the time to look at the size diffrences between the NA 6 ports and the T2's 4 ports you will realize that the 6 ports do NOT flow more then the 4 ports...
#2, you are talking about slapping a T2 manifold with spacer and T2 turbo.. The wastegate is internal.. you can port it out to a certain limit, but you will NOT keep it down to 1-2 PSI .. unless of course you are willing to fabricate an external wastegate..
#3 Find yourself some better books and magazines..
#2, you are talking about slapping a T2 manifold with spacer and T2 turbo.. The wastegate is internal.. you can port it out to a certain limit, but you will NOT keep it down to 1-2 PSI .. unless of course you are willing to fabricate an external wastegate..
#3 Find yourself some better books and magazines..
04-26-02, 02:08 AM
#25
Ok so I can't tune it to 2psi for normal driving without an external wastegate,but the car could handle the 6 psi boost that is stock on t11s, given the right timing and mixture. This turbo conversion will be happening this winter but I'll let everybody know how it turns out when I'm finished. But until then I'm gonna try and squeeze as much power out of it as I can, so I can burn some of these Honda ******* around here. Peace