EatRiceDontDriveIt

I know I could ask this on the suspension forum but I have no idea if suspension is different for each type of car...

Firstly...

I got my tires balanced and rotated a couple weeks ago... Turns out my rear and front wheels could only be balanced so far because my supsension (I think) is sagging... So I was told that I would need some sort of "strut" like bar that bolts onto the under side of the car that lifts it back up... First problem, I dont know what the bar is called... Then, I start to listen to the squeeks and squeels on my car a bit more closely and Im hearing that a lot of the noises are coming from my wheels when I turn; from both front and back... Ok, its obviously time to replace and upgrade whats holding my car up since its all probably stock anyways... Second problem, I have no clue what anything is or means...

Heres a list of things I found on a website under "Suspension":

busing kits
camber kits
coil overs
shocks/struts
springs
strut bars
suspension package (springs & shocks/struts?)
sway bars

Secondly...

So, a strut bar Im guessing is the bar that goes across your engine... Well I have that, so lets cross it out... Here are my questions about this list specifically:

-What are each one of these pieces and what do they do (where about do they get installed)?

-Do I/Should I have these pieces on my car (stock) now?

-To have a "maxed out" supspension upgrade would I eventually have one of each of these pieces? (like the bar to stop sagging plus new springs plus new coil overs? <is it needed?>)

-Whats the most important piece to have upgraded/replaced firstly?

-What are the better brands for each of these pieces?

I do daily driving in this car with about a size 15 rim... Eventually Ill upgrade to a bigger size (the max Ive been told was 17 x 7/7.5)... Performance is very appealing to me, but not neccessary if theres a huge difference in price (say something like $700-$1000 more expensive)

MtnRacer

All good questions! Yeah, the suspension forum probably would have been a better place(you'll find more people with more knowledge) but I don't think anybody will mind answering them here.

Your definitions:

bushing kits:
Bushing kits replace all the rubber pads that exist in between the metal parts of your suspension. These rubber pads get old over time, and spongey, reducing the the ability of your suspension parts to function properly. Replacing them with new ones or even stiffer ones will increase the stiffness of your suspension and hence allow for better performance. This is a great mod that most people overlook.

camber kits:
Camber kits straighten out the profile of your tire when the car has been lowered(by springs or coilovers). Stock, your left front tire looks like this: | | However, when the car has been lowered, the tires begins to lean "inwards" towards the car, like this(still left front): / / This is called "camber" and more specifically, negative camber(positive camber would lean the other way). The tires on the opposite side lean in the opposite direction. A little bit of camber is desirable, it helps the car corner better under tight turns. However, too much camber will cause uneven wear on the tire, and you will be going through tires like crazy. A camber kit helps correct this and changes a tire from this: / / to this: | | Got it?

shocks/struts:
Shocks/Struts are the dampeners that help the car stop "bouncing" after a bump in the road, or anything else that might upset the suspension. The less bouncing, the better, because if the car is bouncing, the tires can't maintain their full grip on the road, and you always want as much grip as possible(more grip = go faster). Upgrading to stiffer shocks or adjustable shocks allows you to reduce the time the car takes to settle in on it's suspension, hence allowing you more grip.

springs:
Springs, much like shocks, help keep the tires on the road. Stiffer springs not only help the car perform better, they're also often shorter than the stock springs, allowing for the car's center of gravity(COG) to be lower than stock. The lower the COG, the better, because it enables you to corner faster.

coil overs:
Coilovers are really fancy struts with built in springs. They're often fully adjustable, allowing for different shock setting, ride heighth, etc. They're also insanely expensive. Leave this mod for last.

strut bars:
Strut bars, like you said, are the bars that go across the engine bay, connecting the strut towers. They are designed to keep the chassis from "flexing" so that the car can remain as stiff as possible. Once again, stiffer = better.

suspension package (springs & shocks/struts?):
This is just a predesigned package including springs and shocks. Usually the items are carefully selected so that the their specs complement eachother and will perform admirably. If you have the money now, and can afford it, this is a GREAT introductory way to start tuning your suspension.

sway bars:
Sway bars connect the tires from the bottom, decreasing body roll and keeping the weight of the car directly over the tires. This helps the car from understeering badly. This(along with coilovers), is something you probably won't consider unless you're planning on getting into racing.

As for the rest of your questions:

"Do I/Should I have these pieces on my car (stock) now?"
Yes, your car(stock) has all of the above except for a camber kit and coilovers.

"To have a "maxed out" supspension upgrade would I eventually have one of each of these pieces? (like the bar to stop sagging plus new springs plus new coil overs? <is it needed?>)"
Yes, you will need all of the above. However, some steps can be skipped. For example, you could skip springs/struts and go straight to coilovers.

"Whats the most important piece to have upgraded/replaced firstly?"
This is really a matter of opinion, but I would replace the bushings first. They're old, and cheap to replace, and will make a BIG difference. However, most will tell you that you should replace your springs and struts first, which isn't bad advice.

"What are the better brands for each of these pieces?"
Racing Beat, Racing Beat, Racing Beat. K2RD for the coilovers and the camber plates if you get that far.

"I do daily driving in this car with about a size 15 rim... Eventually Ill upgrade to a bigger size (the max Ive been told was 17 x 7/7.5)... Performance is very appealing to me, but not neccessary if theres a huge difference in price (say something like $700-$1000 more expensive)"
Sounds like to me what you want is just a simple springs/struts package. Most suspension stuff gets pretty expensive, and you will see diminishing returns quickly. Coilovers can be 1200-3000 dollars, sway bars are usually 200 a piece, bushing kits are 100-200, etc etc. Springs and Struts should run you somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-800, and are the best bang for you buck.

Drive the car lots first, see what you don't like about the handling, and then post a question asking how you can change that. That was you upgrade what you want, and don't end up with unecessary parts that don't make much of a difference to you. Enjoy the car, hope this helped!

-Steve

MtnRacer

Anyone who actually read EVERYthing up to here in this thread gets a cookie.

Steve

Sir Rupert Hobo

i'd be willing to read it all if you told me more about this cookie.... is it chocolate chip?

EatRiceDontDriveIt

I read it all and I thank you very much!

I still have some questions about the repsonses you gave, but Im at work so Ill have to post them in a bit

vaughnc

I'll jump out on a limb here and say:

"You should never have alignment problems on the stock setup, even if old & saggy" unless something is damaged (you hit a curb).

I'm still trying getting my head around "caster" and "camber" and what that really means when doing an alignment, what's actually crooked, and what the alignment shop numbers really mean.

If the alignment shop says it won't line up, DON'T BELIEVE THEM. I think if caster is out, you must tell the shop to rotate the strut tops... which some won't do and you should immediately ask for a refund.

The other thing I'm still unsure of is do you EVER have to replace springs. Is "general instability" on the highway worn out springs like the shop manual says (assuming new tires & shocks)..... or is it worn out bushings and/or slop in the steering box.

Just about EVERY shop (alignment, mechanic, dealership) won't be able to troubleshoot, fix, or tell you why the car requires BOTH hands on the wheel or it will pull to one side or the other on the freeway, even with new tires & shocks. This is partially why people buy new cars because a) nobody tells them why their current car handles like a POS with new shocks) and b) the labor cost to much for a shop to replace, troubleshoot, and guarantee the car will drive on rails.

BTW, yes you can get that "on rail" driving & handling experience again.

EatRiceDontDriveIt

Ok.. Lets see how I can ask these


-So the bar my mechanic was telling me about to fix the sagging is the sway bars? Can I put sway bars on the front and rear of the car? Will they make a difference in anything if there isnt sagging there?

-Can shocks wear out over time? When I first got my car it would hit pot holes, minor road wear, manhole covers, etc etc really hard (my car would actually shake)... I got new tires and the shakes went away for the most part...

-If I got stiffer shocks woud that mean the car would take every anomoly in the road as hard as before?

"You should never have allignment problems on the stock setup, even if old & saggy" unless something is damaged (you hit a curb)."

Well, I went to Sears, and when I was told about the report they said that the front and rear tires were in a "red zone" (as opposed to a "green zone") and said that looked straight down the middle of the tire from above they could only angle it to 1.7 when the proper angle was something like 1.2... Thats when my mechanic said that it was because my rear suspension was sagging and that a certain part would help correct that (which Im pretty sure, now, he said was a sway bar)...

-Theyre both wrong and I dont need the bar?


I think if caster is out, you must tell the shop to rotate the strut tops... which some won't do and you should immediately ask for a refund.


-Whats caster and whats rotating the strut tops mean? Why dont they (ie Sears) do it anyways?


I mean for right now its sounding like all Ill need to do for awhile is just get new springs, a sway bar (for front and back?), and shocks... Right?

EatRiceDontDriveIt

I called my mechanic just now and its a Camber bar he said I should get... he said it wont improve performance on anything and is just there to lift the sagging rear....

-Would I need a Camber bar if I were to buy new springs, shocks, etc etc?

Fero313

iTrader: (1)

I like that write up... simple, to the point...

(p.s. i like those cookies with the m&ms in them )

MtnRacer

The car already has a camber bar stock, is he planning to replace it with a shorter one? I would invest the money in a suspension package. Although the suspension package will induce some camber, it won't be as much as your current blown out suspension does(it sounds like it's REALLY sagging). To be sure though, ask your mechanic that same question, if he says yes, then tell him thanks, grab your car, and order the suspension package and install it yourself.

Steve