ok. so, ive been working on my rx7 for a while now, turning into a drift/**** around car, i have my 2200cc bug for DD, and ive come up with the engine i want to build, i just have a few questions
(before anyone crawls up my ***, ive searched and searched and cant find what im looking for. 2 weeks of searching btw)

quick notes, read what ive highlighted in red

s5 13b n/a
s5 t2 housing- race port exhaust (pineapple racing)
s5 n/a irons- large street port (pineapple racing)
rx8 e-shaft
s5 n/a rotors cleaned and possibly coated (idk about this as its n/a)
removed emissions
everything internally will be stock except for a shimmed oil pressure pill
replace ALL the bearings, including stationary and rotor bearings, thrust bearings, torington bearings
now, my biggest question is, i want to run a 13brew front cover and pully stack for this reason, i want to run a haltech p1000 since i understand how to properly setup a standalone (rpm, load and incoming air)

and thats where im stuck, i have seen everything put together (the 13brew that i powdercoated, ported and assisting rebuilding) and i know why i want this setup, i have not been able to find ANYONE with this setup.
here is my question: can i or cant i run a 13brew front plate, CKP, tone wheel, front pully stack and use a haltech to utilize the CKP setup and setup my fuel/air/ignition setup with other sensors that the haltech can run

now, for my haltech idea is this:
p1000
ls1 coils
wideband 02
AIS
Coolant temp sensor
use the CKP and toner wheel for rpm
gm 3bar MAP (that covers load, rpm, air, temp)

also, i want to eventually run the tweakit itb setup. so i would need to run a MAF sensor of some sorts, as well as a TPS (could i run a similar setup to the ls1 tps that uses duel/alternate tps sensors?)

and since im talking about that, what fuel setup would i run as far as CC's? i know that i would probably have to make the fuel system, but would it become a returnless or would it still utilize the stock system?
and 1 last thing, i want to run a fuel cell but still use a stock filler with the vapor recovery. i dont need anything answered on that seeing as there is MASSIVE amounts of information, but what kind of sender unit would i use? if at all?


i just want these questions answered. pictures would be nice, as well as links to other places to answer these questions. im not just here to ask and waste time, my intention is to utilize all of my knowledge and pick peoples brains that have experience in this so as to further myself as a builder and a tech. thanks again

Lloyd

 

As a guy who use to drift with a NA car.....go turbo.....seriously! A swap will cost less money then what you are talking about doing and you will have more useable power.

 

Turbo rotor housings on an NA are so unbelievably loud...
It'd really help if you had a gt28rs right there to soak up all the exhaust noise...

 

ok, just letting everyone know, i dont want to do turbo, no interest. if i wanted that, i would not have posted and just bought a 13bt.
thanks

Lloyd

 

FC coils are great, why replace them?

 

I want to run a haltech..............

Nobody with actual input?


Lloyd

 

With this setup, you will have almost no low end torque.

Why?

You know how to program a standalone as mentioned above, so why are you asking this question?

The FD uses the exact same 24 tooth and 2 tooth setup as the FC, though instead of putting it in a CAS it is on a trigger wheel on the eccentric. So the Haltech will read it just fine. Be aware that these sensors tend to be noisier then the CAS.

I'm almost certain that if you use the FD front cover, you will also need the FD water pump housing, pulleys and belts. This probably also means the FD front stack and stationary gear, since the FD hub probably won't match up to the FD front stack. Maybe someone else can confirm this.

The Haltech will run stock FC ignition.

Why a 3 bar MAP sensor in an NA application?

No. Run the ECU in Alpha-N. You will need a full range TPS, so just use the common Ford or GM TPS that many Haltech users install (see Haltech forum).

Well, since you are looking at about 200HP, then just run the 4 460CC NA injectors. If you find that duty cycle is going past 85%, then upgrade the secondaries. Use the stock fuel system, no need to change.

Sender? Just put a check valve at the top of the fuel cell and plumb the vapour system like normal.

 

ok aaron. thank you for your response.
i have a few questions for you to your answers
1) what setup would you recommend for a drift engine?
2) would it just be easier to run the 13b front cover and run the haltech to the stock ignition and CAS?
3) what map sensor would you recommend, if not just the stock one
4) if im going to be running an ITB setup, i would just run the stock 460cc injectors, then if i see the duty cycle go past 85%, upgrade the secondary to 600cc so to not have the duty cycle go past that threshold?
5) if i ran the fuel cell, i wouldent need to make a new fuel system?

Lloyd

 

"would it just be easier to run the 13b front cover and run the haltech to the stock ignition and CAS?"
YES

"what map sensor would you recommend, if not just the stock one"
You can buy the Haltech with the MAP sensor. Don't know if the stock one is compatible (but check the haltech section). This is an NA motor, so you use a plain old 1 bar sensor.

"if im going to be running an ITB setup, i would just run the stock 460cc injectors, then if i see the duty cycle go past 85%, upgrade the secondary to 600cc so to not have the duty cycle go past that threshold?"
If you see the duty cycle going past that, then yes, upgrade. You should be fine like mentioned. But if you must, you can find turbo injectors, 550cc

"if i ran the fuel cell, i wouldent need to make a new fuel system?"
This is overkill. What's wrong with the stock gas tank? If you are worried about cutting out during drifting, I think you are thinking of a fuel surge tank.

 

Yeah, you can find a pair of 550's for dirt cheap.

 

There is your first mistake, lol. Ignoring mass air flow systems, here are your two main choices and a brief explanation:

1) Speed-density (Load Source set to MAP). Your main fuel map will be engine rpm vs. manifold absolute pressure (MAP). MAP is the ambient (outside air) pressure plus the manifold pressure. For example, if the outside air pressure is 1 bar, and the manifold pressure is 0.2 bar of vacuum, then the MAP is 0.8 bar. Likewise, if the outside air pressure is 1 bar, and the manifold pressure is 0.5 bar of boost, then the MAP is 1.5 bar. The Haltech P1000 comes with an internal 2.5 bar MAP sensor, or you have the option of buying an external MAP sensor. The internal 2.5 bar sensor will work just fine. One bar = about 14.5 psi or about 29.53 inHg, so that 3 bar MAP sensor you were considering would be a complete waste of money for a non-turbo engine. As an option, you can install an external 1 bar sensor, which will be a little more accurate due to using its full range on your NA engine, and the ECU will receive the signal slightly faster due to the electrical connection vs. the vacuum line connection used for the internal MAP sensor. However, I have driven non-turbo cars running on a standalone EMS with an internal 2.5 bar MAP sensor and it worked just fine in my opinion.

2) Alpha-N (Load Source set to TPS). Your main fuel map will be engine rpm vs. throttle position sensor (TPS). The primary advantages of this system are that there may be no sensors impeding the intake air if you wish, and it is completely immune to any reversion waves. The disadvantage is that it is rather difficult to tune, and it will tend to not stay in tune with changes in the engine or weather. The P1000 allows for MAP, inlet air temp, and other corrective inputs to help keep the engine in tune if you wish to use them. As indicated by Aaron, you would want a really good TPS if you go this route. Many serious non-turbo race cars, such as the Mazda 787B, are tuned with Alpha-N.

As recommended by others, I would keep the stock fuel system for now, and just watch to see if it is running out of fuel. However, a nice Aeromotive or SX FPR and maybe a new slightly upgraded fuel pump would make feel better about tuning.

I don't think that Fuel Safe or ATL makes any fuel level senders that are compatible with the stock fuel gauge. I think you would either need to buy a fully-adjustable sender, or buy an aftermarket gauge and sender. Something like this may work:
http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.c...112/prd112.htm

Also, it would be really difficult to install a good-sized racing fuel cell in the car and still use the stock fuel port. Just a word of warning, a new top-name racing fuel cell and typical options (surge tank, fuel sender, vent valve, etc.) will cost nearly $2,000. If you are considering one of those cheapie drag race fuel cells that are just glorified milk jugs, then I think you would be better off using the DOT-approved stock fuel tank and spending your money on something more useful.

 

ok so basically ive gathered this
stock fuel system unless superceding 85% duty cycle on 440cc injectors
stock ignition system (although i want haltech for the ls1 coils)
dont run a massive port
setup the haltech pretty close to stock, possibility of aftermarket map.
tps set to alpha-n on ecu
run stock(ported) irons and housings

have i missed much?

Lloyd

 

I need to be clear that my recommendation for Alpha-N applies only to ITBs. If running a stock manifold or one with a plenum behind the throttle body, then speed density is how it should be tuned.

I don't understand where this LS1 coils fetish connects to the Haltech. The Haltech will run LS1 coils, stock FC coils, FD coils, coils from a 1937 Lada, the ignition system from a Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine, COP setups, etc. etc. You could also run LS1 coils on a stock FC/FD ECU, with a little wiring creativity. But the LS1 coils have had mixed results on the rotary. Some people say they work just fine, others can't get enough dwell to get decent spark at higher RPM.

 

The stock injectors are considered 460cc as per this forum. If you are only slightly running out of fuel then you can bump up the fuel pressure a bit rather than buying larger injectors.

To digress into technical report writing... "supersede" is considered the correct variant of the word. It doesn't matter a hill of beans on this forum, but it makes for interesting trivia because one would normally think that "cede" would be the correct form based on the spelling of the root. OK, enough of that, lol.

I have direct ignition for my low-rpm 20B, but so far it has just been a pain. Fortunately, my friend made some nice custom mounts for them, and he found some igniters from a passenger car but I can't remember the make and model. I have some Blaster II coils as a back-up. If I could have used the stock coils then I would not have bothered with alternatives.

I would ask those questions in the Racing subforum where there is more experience with mixing and matching engine parts for performance. This forum is mostly oriented towards street cars.
https://www.rx7club.com/race-car-tech-103/

Yes, the external 1 bar MAP sensor is an option, although you would want a good aftermarket TPS if you choose to run the car in Alpha-N (Load = TPS) mode.

That is up to you. Also, I am not very familiar with the new P1000, but I think the actual setting for Alpha-N would be to go into the setup menu and set Load Source to: TPS. It is possible that the "Alpha-N" terminology may not be in the Haltech setup menu.

You can petty much count on it, lol. I have never seen anybody perfectly plan a hotrod build. There is always something that doesn't work as planned.

 

well, luckily for me i have a huge base of people to listen to and take into consideration, as well as very experienced builders.
im starting to build a good list of things i need for my engine, as well as looking through the different subforums and such.
i think im just gunna run a streetport intake and exhaust, i have my stainless rb header and knightsport catback, gunna run the tweakit itb and start looking through the different mapping needed for the engine.
ill have to jump on the haltech subforum and start asking questions.
thank you guys, but if anyone has any really good feedback, keep posting.

heres an odd question, since i do powdercoating, is there any negatives to powdercoating as far as heat retention or overheating problems? i dont think so, i have no evidence of that through any of the engines i have powdercoated heads, blocks, valve covers, housings, irons, water pump housings.
whats the general concensis here?

Lloyd

 

and btw, supersede is actually the correct spelling seeing as it is based in latin roots, cede- meaning to give up, and supersede, meaning to come before. it uses the word cede, but its derivative sede, only gets changed based on the word...........
i dont get english, german doesnt have these problems. LOL

Lloyd

 

People paint engine parts all the time, so I don't think powder coating would have any negative issues either.

 

^ I love your avatar

SHUTDOWN SEQUENCE INITIATED. SHUTTING DOWN...

 

Quick... press O

SHUTDOWN SEQUENCE OVERRIDDEN

CRITICAL HIT
JUMP JET EXHAUST PORT

 

Powder coating requires getting the parts much hotter than they would normally get, it might not be so good for the engine parts.

 

An old article which may help, even though I don't think the mechanics really knew what they were doing:
http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/carb_vs_fi.pdf

 

point 2... Reports target destroyed

 

wow, BADASS article. that answers so many questions. i like how they did the testing on a fuel injected 6-port streetported engine. thats just freakin awsome.
do you think they got the 226 hp from additional mods besides the port and throttle bodies? see, i know that the haltech was a good idea.
so, with this setup, just run the fc ignition, and cas with the haltech? if so, then i can cross out half of my build cost. lol.

wow, more information, this is awsome.

Lloyd