Handling Worse after swtich to Manual rack
03-15-13, 09:07 AM
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Handling Worse after swtich to Manual rack
Front
0 toe, 1 camber
Rear
O toe, 2 camber
Above setup felt great UNTIL I swapped the 15.1 power rack for a 20.1 manual rack. Now the car wanders around the road, I’m forever sawing on the wheel, feels frightfully numb on-center.
Feedback gets better at speed, and is OK in corners, but still feels dead and slow-witted compared to the previous p/s setup
Mechanically everything is good, nice and tight, no slop or sticking. I was really hoping the conversion to manual would make it feel better, not worse. Suggestions?
I have a depowered 17.1 rack to try. Hoping it’s just the slow ratio of the 20.1 rack.
0 toe, 1 camber
Rear
O toe, 2 camber
Above setup felt great UNTIL I swapped the 15.1 power rack for a 20.1 manual rack. Now the car wanders around the road, I’m forever sawing on the wheel, feels frightfully numb on-center.
Feedback gets better at speed, and is OK in corners, but still feels dead and slow-witted compared to the previous p/s setup
Mechanically everything is good, nice and tight, no slop or sticking. I was really hoping the conversion to manual would make it feel better, not worse. Suggestions?
I have a depowered 17.1 rack to try. Hoping it’s just the slow ratio of the 20.1 rack.
03-15-13, 10:45 AM
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maybe the rack you got is bad? the manual rack is slower, but i find that just means my hands have to move faster, which IMO is bad.
i also like a little toe in in the rear. and you mean -1 camber right?
i also like a little toe in in the rear. and you mean -1 camber right?
03-15-13, 02:45 PM
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Alignment is spot-on. I had one shop do it, another shop verify it, but handling felt so poor I didn't believe them so BOUGHT EQUIPMENT MYSELF and measured it in the garage. The camber gauge is actually a cool gizmo, toe verified via a pair of 4ft carpenter's levels and a measuring tape 
My measurements were identical to the 2 shops, which is some small comfort....
It is indeed 0 toe all the way around, -1 camber front -2 camber rear (sorry left the negatives off, just ***-uming, which makes an *** out of me).
Frustrating as this was supposed to be an upgrade, not downgrade. Might try a touch of toe in front to see if it helps the wandering ways, but that'll only worsen the feel.
Weird part is it felt so good before. Wifey's car (Protege5) running similar specs for years and feels great. Nissan Quest minivan (don't laugh, I have fruitful loins) runs similar specs and feels exactly like a minivan.
My measurements were identical to the 2 shops, which is some small comfort....It is indeed 0 toe all the way around, -1 camber front -2 camber rear (sorry left the negatives off, just ***-uming, which makes an *** out of me).
Frustrating as this was supposed to be an upgrade, not downgrade. Might try a touch of toe in front to see if it helps the wandering ways, but that'll only worsen the feel.
Weird part is it felt so good before. Wifey's car (Protege5) running similar specs for years and feels great. Nissan Quest minivan (don't laugh, I have fruitful loins) runs similar specs and feels exactly like a minivan.
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03-15-13, 03:03 PM
#9
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Sounds like you might need some new inner tie rods/bushings in the rack. With the car parked crank right and left on the wheel and listen for clunking noises. It could very well be aligned but it won't stay that way in when the car is in motion because inner tie rods are worn.
We road race with the manual racks, just got to keep them tight.
We road race with the manual racks, just got to keep them tight.
Last edited by JohnnyH; 03-15-13 at 03:30 PM.
03-15-13, 04:42 PM
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03-15-13, 06:29 PM
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03-18-13, 09:25 AM
#14
If you hate the manual steering rack, reinstall your power steering.
I've never driven an FC with power steering, but I can tell you that cars designed with true manual steering racks (not depowered ps) are incredibly easy to drive. You feel the road instead of having a floating sensation. The only time turning an FC with a manual rack is tough is when you are literally at dead stop. Roll 2 mph and it requires very little effort. A girl can do it and not bitch.
I probably went on a tangent. Anyways, if your not happy, just go back to power steering. Everyone has different taste.
I've never driven an FC with power steering, but I can tell you that cars designed with true manual steering racks (not depowered ps) are incredibly easy to drive. You feel the road instead of having a floating sensation. The only time turning an FC with a manual rack is tough is when you are literally at dead stop. Roll 2 mph and it requires very little effort. A girl can do it and not bitch.
I probably went on a tangent. Anyways, if your not happy, just go back to power steering. Everyone has different taste.
03-18-13, 10:17 AM
#15
Something else is going on here.
Just swapping to a manual rack shouldn't affect the handling...you may not like the effort/"feel" but it should track just fine.
There is either a hardware issue or an adjustment issue and until you solve it, you have no idea whether or not you'd like a manual.
Just swapping to a manual rack shouldn't affect the handling...you may not like the effort/"feel" but it should track just fine.
There is either a hardware issue or an adjustment issue and until you solve it, you have no idea whether or not you'd like a manual.
03-18-13, 11:15 AM
#16
If you hate the manual steering rack, reinstall your power steering.
I've never driven an FC with power steering, but I can tell you that cars designed with true manual steering racks (not depowered ps) are incredibly easy to drive. You feel the road instead of having a floating sensation. The only time turning an FC with a manual rack is tough is when you are literally at dead stop. Roll 2 mph and it requires very little effort. A girl can do it and not bitch.
I probably went on a tangent. Anyways, if your not happy, just go back to power steering. Everyone has different taste.
I've never driven an FC with power steering, but I can tell you that cars designed with true manual steering racks (not depowered ps) are incredibly easy to drive. You feel the road instead of having a floating sensation. The only time turning an FC with a manual rack is tough is when you are literally at dead stop. Roll 2 mph and it requires very little effort. A girl can do it and not bitch.
I probably went on a tangent. Anyways, if your not happy, just go back to power steering. Everyone has different taste.
I've noticed very different feels in manual racks though. My dad's '86 felt very light. Almost power-steering light, but it was also always on skinny all-seasons. My turbo is still very heavy even with stock 205's. I'd be very interested in any improvements you find.
Acroy: What kind of suspension/ride height are you using? Maybe it's in need of some bumpsteer adjustment?
03-18-13, 01:32 PM
#17
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This is on stock 16" wheels, 205 seciton Dunlop Direzza Star Spec's.
When the rack went in I went through the entire front end, making sure everything was tight. There is no play. Rack itself has good-condition tight bushings, tie rods are good, there is no play in the rack.
When the car is jacked up the steering is finger-tip light, very little stiction. wheel can be spun by pushing on the tire - it's spinning free and smooth. Front suspension bushings are all in good shape.
Suspesnion setup: Eibach's on KYB's in front (-1.5" drop?), Cusco coilovers in back to level it out. This did not change with the rack change.
Previous ps setup felt pretty darn good, tires 'talked' nicely. Maybe it's just the ratio but is sure feels dead and I have to constantly saw at the wheel slightly to keep direction. Course corrections were unnecessary or so slight it was instictive with the ps setup. Alignment specs did not change.
-1toe in rear, 1 toe out front sounds like it would be responsive but less sense of direction than it has now.
When the rack went in I went through the entire front end, making sure everything was tight. There is no play. Rack itself has good-condition tight bushings, tie rods are good, there is no play in the rack.
When the car is jacked up the steering is finger-tip light, very little stiction. wheel can be spun by pushing on the tire - it's spinning free and smooth. Front suspension bushings are all in good shape.
Suspesnion setup: Eibach's on KYB's in front (-1.5" drop?), Cusco coilovers in back to level it out. This did not change with the rack change.
Previous ps setup felt pretty darn good, tires 'talked' nicely. Maybe it's just the ratio but is sure feels dead and I have to constantly saw at the wheel slightly to keep direction. Course corrections were unnecessary or so slight it was instictive with the ps setup. Alignment specs did not change.
-1toe in rear, 1 toe out front sounds like it would be responsive but less sense of direction than it has now.
03-18-13, 03:21 PM
#18
And did you also check out the rear as well after the swap to make sure everything is still tight?
I had a Toe Eliminator bushing bolt get a little loose and it acted as you describe with just a tiny bit of wiggle at one rear wheel.
I have done a depowered rack to manual rack conversion on one FC and my TII has been manual since it was made and neither car had the wandering problem from the rack.
They did wander on different occasions from bad bushings, balljoints, bearings and loose parts and stopped wandering each time after each issue corrected.
I use zero toe up front and a hair to a moderate amount in the rear depending on HP level.
I had a Toe Eliminator bushing bolt get a little loose and it acted as you describe with just a tiny bit of wiggle at one rear wheel.
I have done a depowered rack to manual rack conversion on one FC and my TII has been manual since it was made and neither car had the wandering problem from the rack.
They did wander on different occasions from bad bushings, balljoints, bearings and loose parts and stopped wandering each time after each issue corrected.
I use zero toe up front and a hair to a moderate amount in the rear depending on HP level.
03-18-13, 06:08 PM
#20
Try parallel parking up a hill. You will not have kind words for a manual rack afterwards.
I've noticed very different feels in manual racks though. My dad's '86 felt very light. Almost power-steering light, but it was also always on skinny all-seasons. My turbo is still very heavy even with stock 205's. I'd be very interested in any improvements you find.
Acroy: What kind of suspension/ride height are you using? Maybe it's in need of some bumpsteer adjustment?
I've noticed very different feels in manual racks though. My dad's '86 felt very light. Almost power-steering light, but it was also always on skinny all-seasons. My turbo is still very heavy even with stock 205's. I'd be very interested in any improvements you find.
Acroy: What kind of suspension/ride height are you using? Maybe it's in need of some bumpsteer adjustment?
Iv'e parallel parked up hill before and down hill and honestly i still have no complaints. Mine is a 86 with factory manual rack, maybe thats why its "light" like you said.
I have had factory gxl wheels with monster sized tires, HEAVY 17's and lighter 17's on my car and i haven't noticed to much of a difference.
Its actually funny because i can tell when my front tires are low because it gets slightly harder to turn at a dead stop.
Manual rack is the best IMHO.I'd like to also add that im a skinny weak little ****. No muscles here.
03-19-13, 09:56 AM
#21
^ lol funny man. The manual rack can be annoying when getting out of a standstill parallel park and does feel like your actually driving the car. I have 16in crown Vic. Meshies and the rack feels good I don't mind it and I have grown to like it. However, when I do take it for a hard drive I the local canyons you can feel the stiffness during the turns and you have got to hold the steering wheel tightly throught the turn. Feels very exciting but it does take a a but of effort. All in all it feels good adds to the feel of the actually driving portion of any sports car
03-19-13, 10:14 AM
#22
Iv'e parallel parked up hill before and down hill and honestly i still have no complaints. Mine is a 86 with factory manual rack, maybe thats why its "light" like you said.
I have had factory gxl wheels with monster sized tires, HEAVY 17's and lighter 17's on my car and i haven't noticed to much of a difference.
Its actually funny because i can tell when my front tires are low because it gets slightly harder to turn at a dead stop. Manual rack is the best IMHO.
I'd like to also add that im a skinny weak little ****. No muscles here.
I have had factory gxl wheels with monster sized tires, HEAVY 17's and lighter 17's on my car and i haven't noticed to much of a difference.
Its actually funny because i can tell when my front tires are low because it gets slightly harder to turn at a dead stop.
Manual rack is the best IMHO.I'd like to also add that im a skinny weak little ****. No muscles here.
I too am blessed with the muscle definition of a squid. So I know I'm complaining about something that doesn't bother most people.
I'm just saying I've noticed what seem like very different versions of the same "manual rack" given a mostly stock setup.
But back to the matter at hand, I have no experience with wandering on either of them.
I think part of it is that the power rack still has a cushion of hydraulic fluid to dampen some of the smaller road bumps that you are now manually correcting. And I feel the manual rack is too slow, requiring you to 'saw' to keep it straight.
03-19-13, 11:38 AM
#23
I think part of it is that the power rack still has a cushion of hydraulic fluid to dampen some of the smaller road bumps that you are now manually correcting. And I feel the manual rack is too slow, requiring you to 'saw' to keep it straight.
Ah, I hadn't thought of that.
The de-powered rack I had used before I swapped it for manual had the welded quill shaft mod.
It was too hard for me to muscle around the auto-x with 255/40 NT01 R-comps so I switched to manual for the ratio.
It is still too hard to keep up with your inputs with the grip and power available in a parking lot race. Perfectly fine on the street or track, actually the faster ratio of the de-powered rack was nicer there.
Ah, I hadn't thought of that.
The de-powered rack I had used before I swapped it for manual had the welded quill shaft mod.
It was too hard for me to muscle around the auto-x with 255/40 NT01 R-comps so I switched to manual for the ratio.
It is still too hard to keep up with your inputs with the grip and power available in a parking lot race. Perfectly fine on the street or track, actually the faster ratio of the de-powered rack was nicer there.
03-19-13, 01:00 PM
#24
I too am blessed with the muscle definition of a squid. So I know I'm complaining about something that doesn't bother most people.
I'm just saying I've noticed what seem like very different versions of the same "manual rack" given a mostly stock setup.
But back to the matter at hand, I have no experience with wandering on either of them.
I think part of it is that the power rack still has a cushion of hydraulic fluid to dampen some of the smaller road bumps that you are now manually correcting. And I feel the manual rack is too slow, requiring you to 'saw' to keep it straight.
If your steering has slop in it, you have a mechanical problem. Maybe the rack is bad.
If the car is steering itself and you are having to correct constantly your path, you have either alignment issue or other mechanical issues. Maybe the rack is bad.
Yes I read the whole thread. The OP said his steering used to feel pretty darn good. Instinctive. It felt so good. Change it back if you don't like it.