Getting into a full rebuild 1987 non-turbo. Is it worth it?
11-29-16, 08:20 AM
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Getting into a full rebuild 1987 non-turbo. Is it worth it?
So, this is basically my first major post on this site and a big part of why I came here in the first place. What I'm getting into might be way over my head, and I want to know if I should get into it.
It's a low mileage, weather beaten 1987 fc3s with a partial engine (everything except the rotors). I've been looking for almost a week now, and it seems rotors are real hard to come by in a basically scrapings sort of budget. I really don't want to get into it if it's going to cost me more than a running rx-7.
Needs-
-both rotors
-full engine rebuild
-body works
-paint work
-suspension work
-interior work
It does come with 2 5 speed transmissions, most of the engine parts, full rolling chassis, and most of the bits to make the whole car. Idk, it isn't mine yet, but I'm deep into negotiation with the guy selling it, and I'm having second thoughts.
It's a low mileage, weather beaten 1987 fc3s with a partial engine (everything except the rotors). I've been looking for almost a week now, and it seems rotors are real hard to come by in a basically scrapings sort of budget. I really don't want to get into it if it's going to cost me more than a running rx-7.
Needs-
-both rotors
-full engine rebuild
-body works
-paint work
-suspension work
-interior work
It does come with 2 5 speed transmissions, most of the engine parts, full rolling chassis, and most of the bits to make the whole car. Idk, it isn't mine yet, but I'm deep into negotiation with the guy selling it, and I'm having second thoughts.
11-29-16, 09:09 AM
#2
Honestly. If you're building with a super tight budget I would recommend trying to do it yourself. It's quite easy compared to piston engines.
But if you were outsourcing the rebuild I think you would a good deal of cash flow to make sure everything is done right.
You can probably get a running fc in very good condition for under 5 grand ( I don't know the market on these in the states )
Up here you can get turbo 2s for around 6 grand.
My opinion would be find a good condition one and use this as a parts car.
Edit: I re read your post and you said you were in deep negotiation with him. I would offer no more than 500 if it's rust free underneath. I paid 650 for an 89 vert that supposedly needed a rebuild but in the end it worked fine.
But if you were outsourcing the rebuild I think you would a good deal of cash flow to make sure everything is done right.
You can probably get a running fc in very good condition for under 5 grand ( I don't know the market on these in the states )
Up here you can get turbo 2s for around 6 grand.
My opinion would be find a good condition one and use this as a parts car.
Edit: I re read your post and you said you were in deep negotiation with him. I would offer no more than 500 if it's rust free underneath. I paid 650 for an 89 vert that supposedly needed a rebuild but in the end it worked fine.
11-29-16, 10:14 AM
#4
Red Pill Dealer
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I bought a "91 TII, non-running (blown engine) yet complete for the parts. I only paid $300 for it but the body was ruined because the idiot let it sit in a field, up against a cedar tree, and let it rust for I don't know how long. I'm sure you could find a better project out there.
11-29-16, 01:10 PM
#5
Information Regurgitator
I would agree it's a project. Also rotary rebuild and a "scrapings sort of budget" are two phrases that don't go together. Have you priced the parts to do the rebuild yet? If not here's a link to get you started: 13B-FC (2nd gen RX-7) heavy duty internal seal & spring rebuild kit Since it doesn't have rotors I'm guessing it doesn't have usable oil control rings so you'll have to buy those as well. Mazdatrix is another place to source parts. If the rotor housings are usable you could be into it for $1600 just for all the seals and gaskets you need not counting what you end up paying for rotors. Also with things in pieces there are always pieces missing that add unexpected costs to it. Sorry, not trying to be negative but you need to know what you could be getting into if you get that car.
11-29-16, 02:03 PM
#6
Unless there is something special about that specific car, I don't see the point.
It'll take a metric shitton of time and effort and in the end, what have you got?
I approach a new project by evaluating three aspects of the car:
-Mechanical...this is anything that can be unbolted and repaired/replaced, so, stuff like brakes, suspension, engine, trans, etc.
-Chassis...this is the structure of the car and you're primary concern is rust.
-Cosmetics...would be interior, paint, maybe wheels. Stuff that makes the car nice looking and/or comfortable.
A realistic project would be OK or better in two of the three areas and how you weigh their importance makes a difference. For instance, I hate bodywork/paint and would avoid a car with your exterior on that basis alone.
If it ran and drove and was under $500, I might consider it as beater daily, but that's about it.
Your comment about a "beater budget" kinda tells me that you've never tackled a project like this before, so let me save you some time.
No matter your initial estimate- you might think you're being absurdly generous- a project like that will exceed it multiple times. You can't even imagine the weird expenses that will crop up and that's not to mention the missing parts (which you won't know about till you get there) that will be IMPOSSIBLE to find.
To me, that looks like a money pit you'll be trying to escape in a year without ever having driven a FC.
However, I applaud your ambition, sympathize with your desire and urge you to prove me wrong.
Being a sane person though, I'll be betting against you.
It'll take a metric shitton of time and effort and in the end, what have you got?
I approach a new project by evaluating three aspects of the car:
-Mechanical...this is anything that can be unbolted and repaired/replaced, so, stuff like brakes, suspension, engine, trans, etc.
-Chassis...this is the structure of the car and you're primary concern is rust.
-Cosmetics...would be interior, paint, maybe wheels. Stuff that makes the car nice looking and/or comfortable.
A realistic project would be OK or better in two of the three areas and how you weigh their importance makes a difference. For instance, I hate bodywork/paint and would avoid a car with your exterior on that basis alone.
If it ran and drove and was under $500, I might consider it as beater daily, but that's about it.
Your comment about a "beater budget" kinda tells me that you've never tackled a project like this before, so let me save you some time.
No matter your initial estimate- you might think you're being absurdly generous- a project like that will exceed it multiple times. You can't even imagine the weird expenses that will crop up and that's not to mention the missing parts (which you won't know about till you get there) that will be IMPOSSIBLE to find.
To me, that looks like a money pit you'll be trying to escape in a year without ever having driven a FC.
However, I applaud your ambition, sympathize with your desire and urge you to prove me wrong.
Being a sane person though, I'll be betting against you.
11-29-16, 04:20 PM
#7
i've had people come in and have me build them an engine, then ask me to install it and deliver something like that and i just shake my head.
you'll be into it far more than you anticipate, unless you are doing it for fun and can go over the car's value for the sake of saying "i did it all myself".
you'll be into it far more than you anticipate, unless you are doing it for fun and can go over the car's value for the sake of saying "i did it all myself".
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11-29-16, 07:14 PM
#8
Some advice from my experiences
I have done this four times:
I've restored to very nice condition a 90 Vert in 2004: It had a ragged top, destroyed seats, no exhaust or stereo, rotted tires, leaky shocks and a terrible cooling system, BUT it did have great compression on the engine. It came home on a trailer and I've done EVERYTHING to that car except rebuild the keg. ****-ton of time and a just a little money. It's been worth every penny and minute of time. It was my 'therapy' car. I still have it but now I seldom drive it, preferring to spend time driving my SL55 for a different type of therapy.
I bought a cheap running driving 88TII in 2006 from a lying piece of ****, but he and I both *knew* he was a lying piece of ****. I later sold the car for what I paid for it (very cheap) without putting a dime into it because the engine was a hacked together basket case. I'm sure there were other issues, but I bailed.
I bought a Canadien (eh?) 88 N/A in 2007 that donated a bucket of rust flakes to the garage floor every time I touched anything mechanically. It turned out to be a great driver. I had a lot of fun painting it with my HVLP gun and a can of Rustoleum Battleship Gray. It died a glorious death, sacrificing itself to save my college age son from a severe high-speed rear-ending delivered by a texting Coed.
I bought a fairly nice 10th Anny in 2009 from a good guy in a tight spot. The car needed the engine rebuilt. I rebuilt it with help from a friend and still have the car. Restoring the rest is still in progress.
My advice is to buy the nicest RX7 you can afford when you start out. This will allow you to focus on the important things.
The car you have pictured here is not a candidate for anything.
Good Luck and welcome to the community.
I've restored to very nice condition a 90 Vert in 2004: It had a ragged top, destroyed seats, no exhaust or stereo, rotted tires, leaky shocks and a terrible cooling system, BUT it did have great compression on the engine. It came home on a trailer and I've done EVERYTHING to that car except rebuild the keg. ****-ton of time and a just a little money. It's been worth every penny and minute of time. It was my 'therapy' car. I still have it but now I seldom drive it, preferring to spend time driving my SL55 for a different type of therapy.
I bought a cheap running driving 88TII in 2006 from a lying piece of ****, but he and I both *knew* he was a lying piece of ****. I later sold the car for what I paid for it (very cheap) without putting a dime into it because the engine was a hacked together basket case. I'm sure there were other issues, but I bailed.
I bought a Canadien (eh?) 88 N/A in 2007 that donated a bucket of rust flakes to the garage floor every time I touched anything mechanically. It turned out to be a great driver. I had a lot of fun painting it with my HVLP gun and a can of Rustoleum Battleship Gray. It died a glorious death, sacrificing itself to save my college age son from a severe high-speed rear-ending delivered by a texting Coed.
I bought a fairly nice 10th Anny in 2009 from a good guy in a tight spot. The car needed the engine rebuilt. I rebuilt it with help from a friend and still have the car. Restoring the rest is still in progress.
My advice is to buy the nicest RX7 you can afford when you start out. This will allow you to focus on the important things.
The car you have pictured here is not a candidate for anything.
Good Luck and welcome to the community.
Last edited by jackhild59; 11-29-16 at 07:18 PM.
11-30-16, 12:21 AM
#9
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I hope you are just looking at that..
You can get running FC's for about 1000 bucks all day long..and in better shape than that lawn ornament.
Body and engine are 2 main factors and depending in which area of expertise you are better at then it is up to you whether you should get into a Project..and that car is definitely a project.
Personally I like a solid base..and I am good with the engine bay aspect of the car,so my eyes tend to wander to that when I see a car for sale.If it needs body work then I get a little concerned.
Good luck to ya.
You can get running FC's for about 1000 bucks all day long..and in better shape than that lawn ornament.
Body and engine are 2 main factors and depending in which area of expertise you are better at then it is up to you whether you should get into a Project..and that car is definitely a project.
Personally I like a solid base..and I am good with the engine bay aspect of the car,so my eyes tend to wander to that when I see a car for sale.If it needs body work then I get a little concerned.
Good luck to ya.
11-30-16, 05:07 PM
#10
An easy eyeball is 4-lug wheels... Runaway... 5 lugs & a limited-slip diff? Possible Candidate. Otherwise your wasting your time with that 4- lug driveline... Without knowing the engine condition of course... Find a Good Candidate. Unless your into Demolition Derby or something silly.
11-30-16, 06:23 PM
#11
I wouldn't pay money for that unless you wanted it solely for parts. If you're going to restore or build an FC, start with a good foundation. You can find a running FC for next to nothing, or pay a little extra and find a clean beauty. You'll have a more fulfilling experience spending your time and money improving things that already work, instead of struggling to get a car running at all.
11-30-16, 08:26 PM
#12
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the fellas have pretty much laid out the cons of that car.
i think my FC is a good example of why you would take on a project like this. i started with a bare shell, and have built it from scratch, its taken FOREVER, but its been hugely rewarding, and actually not that expensive.
1 there are so many neat bit lying around for these things that you can basically build a car now that was unobtainable 15 years ago.
for example i traded an efini strut bar for an S5 T2 front lip spoiler.
15 years ago, both of these parts were either really expensive of flat out impossible to get.
we traded because nobody else wanted these things.
15 years ago, a set of S5 tail lights was over $200, i got my set for $65.
i think my FC is a good example of why you would take on a project like this. i started with a bare shell, and have built it from scratch, its taken FOREVER, but its been hugely rewarding, and actually not that expensive.
1 there are so many neat bit lying around for these things that you can basically build a car now that was unobtainable 15 years ago.
for example i traded an efini strut bar for an S5 T2 front lip spoiler.
15 years ago, both of these parts were either really expensive of flat out impossible to get.
we traded because nobody else wanted these things.
15 years ago, a set of S5 tail lights was over $200, i got my set for $65.
11-30-16, 08:55 PM
#13
you guys should also consider that parts aren't as cheap as they were 5-10+ years ago. i have basically doubled what i used to charge.
good used rotor housings with minimal chrome flake? $200+
good used n/a rotors? $150+
good used turbo rotors? $275+
TPS? $50
just about everything is getting harder to find. my car has been rotting, the windshield outer a-pillar trim is falling apart and i have no clue where i would go for them.
interior trim? don't look at it funny and hope you can plastic weld with confidence.
what i will probably wind up doing is making them in carbon fiber(or at the very least reinforcing them and overlaying them with 3M carbon overlayment, the cracks visible even after repairs bother me even if no one else notices them), but ugh, that's a lot of work for a car you just put a rebuild into, a paint job onto, sorted out a thousand issues and spent years on(the OP car, not mine, i keep mine running
)
good used rotor housings with minimal chrome flake? $200+
good used n/a rotors? $150+
good used turbo rotors? $275+
TPS? $50
just about everything is getting harder to find. my car has been rotting, the windshield outer a-pillar trim is falling apart and i have no clue where i would go for them.
interior trim? don't look at it funny and hope you can plastic weld with confidence.
what i will probably wind up doing is making them in carbon fiber(or at the very least reinforcing them and overlaying them with 3M carbon overlayment, the cracks visible even after repairs bother me even if no one else notices them), but ugh, that's a lot of work for a car you just put a rebuild into, a paint job onto, sorted out a thousand issues and spent years on(the OP car, not mine, i keep mine running
)
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-30-16 at 09:12 PM.
11-30-16, 11:30 PM
#15
that's how i see it, i have gotten complete FCs that only needed minor work to get them drivable in much better condition than that. there is some value in parts for him, but scrappers don't often pick up scavenged scrap metal non rolling vehicles for free or pay you anything for them, so is the hassle of spending a couple hundred worth getting a couple hundred for the parts he might get from it?
if it was complete and had 1 major flaw, it might be worth at best $500. ie had crap paint, rust or wasn't running but had a good body/paint. this car has several major flaws and is virtually worthless to try and sell as he has it.
if it was complete and had 1 major flaw, it might be worth at best $500. ie had crap paint, rust or wasn't running but had a good body/paint. this car has several major flaws and is virtually worthless to try and sell as he has it.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-30-16 at 11:34 PM.
11-30-16, 11:48 PM
#16
Red Pill Dealer
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I would disagree about the scrapper thing. I had my '91 shell, and I do mean shell, no nothing left on it, hauled away for free by a scrapper and I didn't even have a title. He showed up with a trailer and we loaded by picking it up and putting it on the trailer. My girlfriend, her daughter, my son, and myself.
This was no doors, hood, hatch, interior, dash, carpet, suspension, engine, driveline, nothing but the shell.
Completely stripped.
This was no doors, hood, hatch, interior, dash, carpet, suspension, engine, driveline, nothing but the shell.
Completely stripped.
Last edited by TonyD89; 11-30-16 at 11:57 PM.
12-01-16, 11:02 AM
#17
I would disagree about the scrapper thing. I had my '91 shell, and I do mean shell, no nothing left on it, hauled away for free by a scrapper and I didn't even have a title. He showed up with a trailer and we loaded by picking it up and putting it on the trailer. My girlfriend, her daughter, my son, and myself.
This was no doors, hood, hatch, interior, dash, carpet, suspension, engine, driveline, nothing but the shell.
Completely stripped.
This was no doors, hood, hatch, interior, dash, carpet, suspension, engine, driveline, nothing but the shell.
Completely stripped.
i know it's sometimes nice to have people like that around, for the times when you do own a car legitimately or know it is not stolen and want to just get rid of it. i know i wouldn't pay the DMV past fees and title transfers just to crush a chunk of metal.
*shrugs*
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-01-16 at 11:07 AM.
12-02-16, 07:29 AM
#18
you guys should also consider that parts aren't as cheap as they were 5-10+ years ago. i have basically doubled what i used to charge.
good used rotor housings with minimal chrome flake? $200+
good used n/a rotors? $150+
good used turbo rotors? $275+
TPS? $50
just about everything is getting harder to find. my car has been rotting, the windshield outer a-pillar trim is falling apart and i have no clue where i would go for them.
interior trim? don't look at it funny and hope you can plastic weld with confidence.
what i will probably wind up doing is making them in carbon fiber(or at the very least reinforcing them and overlaying them with 3M carbon overlayment, the cracks visible even after repairs bother me even if no one else notices them), but ugh, that's a lot of work for a car you just put a rebuild into, a paint job onto, sorted out a thousand issues and spent years on(the OP car, not mine, i keep mine running )
good used rotor housings with minimal chrome flake? $200+
good used n/a rotors? $150+
good used turbo rotors? $275+
TPS? $50
just about everything is getting harder to find. my car has been rotting, the windshield outer a-pillar trim is falling apart and i have no clue where i would go for them.
interior trim? don't look at it funny and hope you can plastic weld with confidence.
what i will probably wind up doing is making them in carbon fiber(or at the very least reinforcing them and overlaying them with 3M carbon overlayment, the cracks visible even after repairs bother me even if no one else notices them), but ugh, that's a lot of work for a car you just put a rebuild into, a paint job onto, sorted out a thousand issues and spent years on(the OP car, not mine, i keep mine running
)Mazda Rx7 Rx-7 Windshield Molding Trim Set 1986 To 1991 | eBay
12-02-16, 09:17 AM
#20
thanks, yeah i might do $80 per side but i wouldn't ever do $150+, i'd make my own somehow before spending that much on such a basic item.
it's strange how they held up in the dry western 118*F heat but they are falling apart in the humid less dramatic southern heat.
it's strange how they held up in the dry western 118*F heat but they are falling apart in the humid less dramatic southern heat.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-02-16 at 09:19 AM.
12-02-16, 10:08 AM
#22
it does somewhat serve a purpose, it keeps rain water from rolling over the sides of the car and instead pushes it up to the roof.
my honda insight doesn't have those lips on the windshield side trim and when it rains i literally get buckets of water inside the car if the window is open more than a hairline crack. i had to put those side window plexiglass deflectors on it to keep water out(and i'm not a fan of how they look, makes it look like just another JC whitney tasteless mod).
its mostly from the windshield wipers, since they push a lot of water right towards your driver window opening, the FC controls that rather well considering how aerodynamic the windshield transitions to the side doors.
my honda insight doesn't have those lips on the windshield side trim and when it rains i literally get buckets of water inside the car if the window is open more than a hairline crack. i had to put those side window plexiglass deflectors on it to keep water out(and i'm not a fan of how they look, makes it look like just another JC whitney tasteless mod).
its mostly from the windshield wipers, since they push a lot of water right towards your driver window opening, the FC controls that rather well considering how aerodynamic the windshield transitions to the side doors.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 12-02-16 at 10:12 AM.