anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

I did some searching and all I got was a bunch on fb 13b's so I thought I would just ask. What is interchangeable between the s5 6 port NA and the s4 or s5 turbo 2 motors. I keep finding plates for in the 100 dollar range and thought that I could just build a T2 by switching out plates to eliminate the 5th and 6th port. It would be cheaper for me since I am looking at somewhere in the 1200 range for a t2 motor J spec. Since I plan on rebuilding it, upgrading turbo and header, and changing throttle bodies I dont see a need to buy stuff I dont need. I have a t2 tranny and am looking for a t2 rear end already have the half shafts and plan on getting a t2 aluminum driveshaft from mazdatrix. All that said what are my options? Aarroncake or however its spelled did a 6 port turbo but thats just not what I am looking for so I wouldnt really even call it an option. Any ideas?

durtled

well if its s5 already keep all ur sensors s5 intakes are slightly better so if its an s5 already ur in good shape. i hear s4 turbo mani's have better flow but u would want to port the wastegate. but if u go with s4 keep the s5 stuff u have or vice versa not gonna want to re wire everything.

anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

Well I will have to do alot of rewiring the person who had the car before me used speaker wire to run some of the **** in the engine bay. Yeah no joke its so ghetto but I was planing on just pulling the harness anyway. As it stands I found a s5 T2 harness for 200 and the mid and rear plates for 75 each then I would just need the front plate and I could have a t2 block for around 500. Unless I am completely missing something. (yes i know the compression would be higher then a turbo) Will all the plates mate up? Oil pan? Which lower intake would I need to use?

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

Mostly everything is interchangeable. You really need to research what you are planning to do and ask a better worded question.

If you are just asking if the irons and oil pans are interchangeable, then yes. There is no difference in oil pan. The irons, as you have found out, differ in the number of intake ports they have.

I really don't understand what you are trying to ask. It seems like you are trying to use s5 high compression rotors into an T2 block. In my opinion, it would be easier to just get a T2 block to start off with. Like I said, everything IS ALMOST interchangeable, but that doesn't mean they will be the same. Example is a N/A oil pump vs. T2 oil pump. One flows more than the other.

Why do I think it's easier to get the T2 block? Because in the end, you will have spent all the time searching for T2 engine parts when your time could of been better spent just getting everything all at once. Even then, if you are just trying to use S5 high compression rotors into an T2 block, you might as well have used the S5 N/A Engine as it is to begin with and do a 6-port turbo!

anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

I get what your saying. I personally don't want to do a 6 port turbo. For about 300-400 i can get the irons I need and since I already have a tranny from a t2 I really don't see the point in blowing 1100+ on a Jspec t2 motor. I didn't realize the oil pumps were that different that's good to know. What about the manifold lower? I could spend the money but why waste it on somethings I don't need? I just want general info I have been reading alot but most of the Frankenstein builds are for the FB 13b motors. I haven't decided what I am going to do for sure yet just really want to know all my options. The 6 port I have has a bad coolant ring at best and at worst fubar'd side seals but I've yet to get it apart to look at it.

jjcobm

iTrader: (18)

Lower intake manifolds:

Turbo - 4 ports
N/A - 6 ports

It will "bolt on", will it work? That's for you to find out (if you don't know, you haven't looked hard enough). Like I said, mostly everything will "bolt on".

Why would you not use all your N/A engine stuff besides intake manifolds (or keep them), rebuild and turbo it? All it seems like you are doing taking your current N/A engine apart and using TII housing and intake manifolds. Thats pretty much a 6-port turbo, without the 6-ports.... You are making life hard on yourself.

anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

I dont want to use the 5th and 6th ports. I dont want to have to deal with the actuators and I would rather just street port a turbo housing and be done with it. None of this is set in stone just doing some looking around trying to figure out my options.

Keith13b

iTrader: (6)

Anarchyb52 - I so feel your pain brother. I have attempted several times over the years to ask this very same question. And for some god forsaken unknown reason we all get the same responses - odd, I must say. I think the biggest problem is that the people who are responding have not done what we are asking and can't answer correctly - or quite frankly, they just don't understand what you are trying to do (even though you made it very clear). I have found that if you ask a question, rather than explain what you are doing, you will get a better response after you sort through the "go search" replies and "how to turbo a 6-port" links.

Lets try this:

What are the differences between a S5 n/a motor and a S5 TII motor - outside of the manifolds, plates, rotors, and oil pump?

So far those are the differences I have found at least.

To those reading, we have a spare NA motor that we would like to convert to a TII block. TII parts always seem to be in the classifides section and the parts are cheap. A whole TII block on the other hand isn't cheap. All we are wanting to do is "lego" together the parts to make a S5 TII engine. We do not want to turbo a 6-port. Think of it as we want to suport those posting in the classifides section !!!

TrboSpdAnt

iTrader: (5)

Well, just from what I've been dealing with, the last few days (FrankenSeven, S4.5 NA-T), I can say this much:

For the MOST part everything either can or will interchange - even if with only mild modifcation. Making sure the important sensors are N370 (S5 TII), such as ECU, harness, Boost Refence Sensor (BRS), MAF, EOMP, etc. is imperative.

As well, injectors should be (obviously) S5 TII, as well.

Other bits are still out with the jury as to whether or not you need them to be 'modernized,' as well (like CAS - if there a difference).

Your best option is to 'Lego' them together (Great term), due to the fact that it's cheaper, but ONLY for the hardware.

In the end, you'd be better off just buying a TII complete and going from there, instead of buying every part to convert.

When I got my vert, it LITERALLY came with an entire catalog of parts, that I'll never need (S5 Irons, ARS Rotor housing, Timing cover, Rear main Cover, 2 water pump housings, 2 CAS, 2 MAF, spare alternator, Y-pipe back RB REV II exhaust, etc...)

If you guys need some **** - being that you're in Orlando, shoot me a PM.... I'm going to offload all of the extra bits, when I get mine done. We can work something, maybe.

anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

Thanks for the replies. I figured that most of the stuff would mount up. I have been reading arroncakes build on his site seeing what he did. I don't want to use the 5th and 6th ports because I don't want to space the turbo manifold. I would however love to have some low end torque which I would loose by just leaving the ports open with a port matched turbo 2 manifold like arroncake did. I was thinking of making my own lower manifold since I have most of the stuff to do it myself. Has anyone done there own lower manifold? I was thinking of a couple ways to still use the 5th and 6th port without the actuators. All of it is just thought and planning though. Doing some digging and looking for one way pressure activated valves that would operate off the manifold pressure to open the ports since the motor would be under boost when you want them open anyway. Still just an idea though.

anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

See I was thinking something like this

http://www.drillspot.com/products/58...lief_valve?s=1

and have 2 of them running from the runners to the 2 smaller runners were the 5th and 6th ports would be on a custom manifold.

TrboSpdAnt

iTrader: (5)

I have my 6-ports still in place and don't have to space anything. I wanted to keep the same low-end torque and knew that if I ported the LIM, it's be gone.

The best recommendation would be to rotate the sleeves 90deg so they're facing AWAY from the housings, that way the 6-port holes are closed and no air will travel, either way, in or out.

Besides, with the 4-port LIM, there isn't an opening in it, so the 6-ports are blocked, anyway.

bumpstart

the question ,, can you make a turbo engine from a 6 port one by swapping the outside plates
= yes,, but in doing so you have retained the shithouse NA primary port and none of the advantages of the 6p beyond the compression bump
you will also need to blank the ACV **** on top of the primary plate,, as UIM is not going to clear it

turbo engine has the wider rotor oil pump,, so you may wish to track that down and swap it in
IMO your much better off keeping it all 6p ( asides the oil pump ) and modding a turbo LIM to suit ( i have posted many pics of these easy mods )



if you want a list of the detail changes from s4 NA to s4 turbo -

timing cover
-- oil drain pipe added

oil pump
- the turbo one is wider rotor, higher volume unit

front engine plate ,
-aux port is eliminated

intermediate ( primary ) plate
1- intake port shape and port timing altered ( s4 turbo is larger and with more overlap )
2- air passage for EGR eliminated
3- port air passage added
4-water passage added ( intenally different due to one motor have LIM crossovers, other not )
5- oil level pipe shortened
6- oil filler pipe shape changed

rear plate
- aux port eliminated


front and rear rotor housings
- water passage LIM crossover for turbo coolant added ( only on the rear rotor )
- free flowing exhaust port insert ( NA exhaust baffle is removed )
- port air passages are opposite sides on turbo and NA engine

rotor
- volume of the rotor recess in larger on the turbo
- chrome plating is applied to the apex slot on turbo rotors

side seal
- turbo one is impregnated with molybdenum sulphide

flywheel
- turbo one is larger diameter ring gear and clutch plate ( 240 mm > 225mm ) and is heavier

NB
s4 NA housings are the odd man out and have different leading spark locations to the N318 and upwards turbo housings
( the NA one has plug in same spot as MFR PP housing )
s5 NA housings utelise the more common s4/5 turbo leading spark location
( but still have the NA exhaust baffle )

the timing change will have minor consequences in your timing map , just be aware if you have them and err you total timing down a little

TrboSpdAnt

iTrader: (5)

I was actually going to ask about that (the timing > tuning bit).

Glad you got to it, first!

joeylyrech

iTrader: (11)

This has been answered a million times!
You just have 2 search and do a little reading!

TURBO and NA have.................
Different ECUs,flow meter,map sensor,injectors,S4s has a knock box S5 doesnt.
Rotor housing,diffuser in NA and no diffuser on Turbo
Irons,4 port turbo,six port non turbo
intakes are different beetwen turbo and non turbo
oil pumps are different
front cover is different
oil filler neck is different
alternator is different
rotor compression is different
intake port timing is different

I hope you guys get it is a whole complete setup build 2 be NA and a Turbo 2 was build around the idea of a turbo that is why the are different!

anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

I get the run down I did read. I wanted specifics. I was asking specifically about the front and rear plate. Didn't mean to be vague. Thank you for all the info though. I am more then likely going to leave it all 6 port and just build my own intake manifold and turbo manifold. Now I am just imagining ways to get around using the actuators to control the ports. Off topic but has anyone turbod a 6 port then taken off emissions and just ran the actuators off boost pressure from the upper intake manifold? Considering under boost is when you would want them open and I have read that 6 psi is what it takes to open them. So if you are running 12-15 psi then at about 3000 rpm's or so, depending on the turbo map, the manifold should be under about 6 or more psi of boost which would open the 5th and 6th port. Just an idea I had at work tonight.

bumpstart

s4 actuator switches with 1.8 psi of exhaust backpressure ( 13 kPa )
the s5 uses the airpump instead,, so yes i see them working as on boost demand when hooked to a boost signal

similarly,, some early s4 13bt TB have a vacuum delay mechanism
though in this situ its switched from a thermo-pneumatic valve and so operates to hold off the secondaries till the engine is warmed enough

you can bypass the valve,, hook up the delay pots mech from a primary vac source
and the secondaries ( and auxiliaries ) in a modded 13bt manifold will be held out until boost builds in the primary tract

-- so optimising the engine in a load dependent two stage throttle arrangement
( whilst the original primary, secondary, aux switching is a 3 stage system,, mazda call it "three winds" )

TrboSpdAnt

iTrader: (5)

Water pump is, as well (8-boly 7-bolt),
WP pulley core is different diameter (smaller bore on NA)

More, is there?

bumpstart

erm,, thats actually a s4.5 thing,, not turbo V NA

just before the change to s5, the water pump ( and pulley ) changes to the 8 bolt type with 3 bolt thermostat neck ( plastic ) and the FD style thermostat
- also they get a revised radiator,, a s4 type,, that has the filler cap on top
later ,, s5 comes and brings the radiator with the silly long filler pipe


BUT,, one thing you did jog there is that some early 85/86 build NA's have a different water pump drive ratio due to subtle pulley size changes to offset high rev cavitation
( the water pump becomes under driven )

Keith13b

iTrader: (6)

TrboSpdAnt & bump0start....Thanks so much for the info. Where the hell were you guys when I was looking for this info! HA! Thanks again. By the looks of It, I'll probably buy a TII or REW and canabilize my S5 NA for the rotor housings if the used motor has them shot.

I am personally going standalone w/ single, so I'll just get all the sensors that are compatable with it.

DeMoe Aurelius

iTrader: (4)

Or do like I was going to do rebuild get the lower and upper intake manifolds with throttle body Same series and all the electronics ( boost sensor & AFM), Turbo and manifold. Send the Lower Intake Manifold to Japan2LA (on the forum) he ports the Turbo LIM and ships it back to you. Get the front cover and oil lines the Turbo injectors or aftermarket, fuel pump ECU use the same harness. Get a Turbo Throttle cable, Use you TII Trans, flywheel & clutch. Run 91 octane or higher get a boost controller set it to about 7-8 and have fun. the hi compression will spool up faster but you dont want to much boost or you can blow you engine. I have a few friends that did it and blew engines from over boosting...

anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

Well the motor is out of the car now I have a whole new slew of problems....ugg....the previous owner must of swapped to a s4 OMP because the rest is s5 stuff and the car is a 90 gxl ugg... Atleast I am making progress.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I didn't know that could be done.
The S5 ECU requires a signal from the OMP or it goes into limp mode.
The S5 throttle body isn't set up for the mechanical linkage to the S4 OMP.

You sure about the OMP being switched?

anarchyb52

iTrader: (13)

Well the OMP electric stepper motor is zip tied by the fuse box and there is a mechanical OMP on there....I dont know what the hell those red necks did to my car.....ugggg

bumpstart

they have left the EOMP functional,, but tied up into the corner to prevent the s5 ECU from going limp

my guess is the replacement engine was always a s4 ,, and they may have re-used s5 manifolds and injectors on it