wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

I'm going to be disassembling my engine for the first time and I need some help on exactly what tools I should be getting. I really don't know what route is best or where the best prices/tools are. I've looked on a few sites and prices are pretty high for most things other than the socket on amazon.

So far I have these tools in mind, correct me if I am wrong.

1) 54mm 6 point socket - for taking off flywheel and front hub bolt . 3/4" drive ?
2) 3/4" breaker bar. what kind of length should i be getting?
3) torch. what kind ?
4) flywheel stopper. saw one that bolts onto the block and stops the flywheel by holding it in place on the teeth of the flywheel and saw one thats a bar that attaches to the flywheel. whats better?
5)cordless impact gun- for putting the engine back together 3/4" drive
6)rebuild video. what's the best one ? rotary aviation- 2 1/2 hours long, mazdatrix - 2 hours long, atkins - is only one hour (i was thinking about getting ra or mazdatrix, figured ra goes into more detail but didnt know if it was better)
7)fsm/haynes manual - can the shop manual be downloaded online and printed out ?

what else am i going to need ? If i am missing anything. I know I probably left something out.
1) feeler gauges, files ? I don't know much about these or have much idea what else ill need.
2)engine stand possibly ?
3) special tools for removing certain engine parts (studs, pilot bearing, etc)

I want to make a list and get everything I need instead of just guessing, right now my goal is to get the engine apart and inspect/clean everything, make sure its up to spec, then once I get a rebuild kit I'll put it all back together.

Thanks for any help and advice you provide.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

No offense intended and I do not wish to discourage you...but realistically, if these are the kind of questions you have to ask now, what would you say the chances are of you successfully completing this project back to a rebuilt/running/driving car?

The short answer is that unless you have a friend who would loan you these tools/equipment or a shop whose tools you can utilize, buying everything you need for the job from start to finish would cost more than simply paying to have it done (and saving hundreds of man-hours of your effort).

I am not looking to earn a rebuild job from you here, simply stating facts as I see them.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

A lot of people here on the forum have done rebuilds themself and I've always wanted to learn.

I don't have any friends with a shop or tools unfortunately so that's why I'm trying to figure out what I need.

Everyone starts somewhere, I know I may look stupid asking all these questions but I'm a very smart guy.

Rotary >Pistons

jaggermouth

iTrader: (1)

I'd rather buy the tools and learn to rebuild then pay someone, which is what I'm doing. I just happen to have a father with a large shop and a lot of tools.
Not just rotary related, but if you just paid someone to do all the work on any of your vehicles, then all you have is the brake job or tie rod job, nothing else. Or you can pay for the parts, tools, etc and still be saving money and now you have tools.

Directed at Rotary Resurrection, where did all your tools and knowledge sprout from? I respect you, your work, and your very helpful website but you must have started somewhere. I'm a firm believer that if someone else can do it, so can I.

Directed at the OP, buy the DVD (I have the Mazdatrix one) and they give a detailed tool list. Some of the crap I didn't need like flywheel stopper, dowel puller, counterweight puller, or pilot bearing tool. My impact took the flywheel nut off with nothing holding it but if you are using a breaker bar, you will need to have that flywheel stopped.

A little tip for the pilot bearing. I packed it with bread and used the clutch alignment tool and I had it out in a minute.

EDIT to continue my tool rant.
I bought a Ford F350 which needed extensive work to pass inspection including ball joints, brakes, tie rods, a new box, etc. The shop wanted $6000 to have it ready for inspection. An OTC 4x4 front end tool kit, a few sockets, parts, and a week of on and off working on it saved me nearly $5000.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

I fully agree. I started out *with the intention of doing multiple builds for myself and others as a business*. Thus I was able to justify buying all the thousands of dollars in tools and equipment, and putting all the thousands of man hours into all the various experiences that built my knowledge.

And if that is your intention, then more power to you.

If it is your intention to build ONE rotary project, then how does it make sense to spend 100+ man hours learning what you need to learn plus hundreds of dollars in seals and components, plus hundreds more dollars in tools and equipment, and still potentially come out with a poor result, versus just paying one time up front to have that ONE BUILD done for you?

From the standpoint of logic and reason, the former scenario makes no sense.

Of course, it is cooler to say that you did your own build than to say that you had it done for you.

It is nice to be able to be self sufficient. I have always paid to have my cars painted. It seems like every car I get needs paint. I got tired of paying to have the job done and at the end of the job I still found that I was not particularly happy with the quality of work. So guess what I'm doing? I've been teaching myself to do paint and body work over the last couple of years. And I've spent several hundred dollars, plus used several hundred more worth of materials, and put hundreds of man-hours of my time, into the effort so far. And I still do not yet have a good job that I can say is better than what I could have paid 1000 bucks to my paint guy and saved all of my time, worry, and mess.

I am trying to learn how to do it for the long-term future use in doing many more cars, so all of the wasted time and effort I'm putting forth now may eventually pay off. If I were only trying to do ONE SINGLE CAR I would be an idiot to put forth all this money and effort just to be able to say that I did it myself. I would lose money, lose time, and most likely still have a subpar job as to what I could have paid to get done.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

And I am not trying to sway you from doing your own build.

However, from what I'm reading above, you basically have NO tools on hand and no engine internal experience whatsoever (on any type of engine). A lot of what you'd buy for a build could end up being one-time-use only, for this one project. For example, you won't use a rotary engine flywheel stopper or a 54mm socket on any other projects at any point in your life, except for rotary engines.

I'm just saying you'll quite possibly spend just as much doing this one for yourself, and then end up with a bunch of stuff you won't often use. So for that reason it seems hard to justify in my eyes, unless you plan to do more rotary builds in the future for yourself and others.

Trust me, the learning curve to figure out all this stuff on your own is a bit steep, and I wouldn't want to go through all of what I went through years ago learning how to work on these cars just to do one single build.

If you do, I'll still try to help you as much as possible, and wish you the best of luck.

jaggermouth

iTrader: (1)

Yup you do have a point. Then again, I wasn't intending on doing another Super Duty front end and what do you know, the one after I bought needed it done to haha.
I would have liked to get an engine built but I couldn't justify the $2000+ bill. I would have piece of mind if you or another shop had done it though. I don't think I will feel confident making a road trip unless it lasts around town.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

But a lot of tools you bought for that front end suspension work can likely be used for other vehicles and projects, right? Like a pickle fork, or a ball joint press, etc. can be used on just about any vehicle.

A lot of stuff you'd buy for a rotary engine build is mainly used for, either rotary-engines-only, or for engine building only. If you plan to build more engines (rotary or otherwise) then by all means, spend the money and buy the tools, a man can never have enough tools.

But I mean, how often do you need to use a torch, or a 54mm socket, or a set of feeler gauges, or a magnetic base dial indicator, etc. when doing general car work? If the dude has none of this stuff already he's either got to be rich to buy it all right now, or cut a lot of corners and bust a lot of knuckles trying to figure out ways to do it without the special stuff and then hope for the best. Can it be done? Sure, people here have done it. Does it make a lot of sense? Not really.

The list of stuff I'd consider pretty essential to do a rebuild the way I do them, though some of the stuff you could get by without I guess:

-strong air compressor
-strong impact gun
(on this note I have a special $300 huge impact gun that I use specifically for the big 19mm bolt on the front of the eshaft, because my "nice" $250 ingersoll rand titanium 1000ft-lb impact gun usually won't remove this bolt)
-parts cleaning tank with $100 worth of mineral spirits and large scrub brush
-flat razor blades and razor knives
-stiff putty knife
-pressure washer
-small and large file set
-air blow gun to dry parts
-dremel tool with bits for cleaning specific areas
-misc pics and small screwdrivers for cleaning key areas and coolant seal grooves
-drill with wire brush
-angle grinder with wire cup brush
-safety glasses, face shield
-nice large work bench/clean work area to spread out cleaned parts
-nice lighting to see what you are doing
-magnetic base dial indicator
-feeler gauges
-straight edge/ruler/scale
-caliper/micrometer
-bag of shop towels
-few cans of brake cleaner
-possibly a press and rotary engine bearing press tools if any of the rotor/main bearings need replacement ($$$$$)
-obviously a full assortment of metric sockets
-small and sledge hammer
-vise grips
-engine stand (or 5 gallon bucket and a strong back or a helper)
-engine hoist/chains
-ultra black sealant
-turkey baster
-vaseline
-red loctite
-oil squirt can, extra oil
-torque wrench (for tension bolts)
-pilot bearing puller and either a lucky-sized socket or a pilot bearing install tool


-a media blast cabinet is not required but is a damn nice thing to have to remove old gasket material from the intake manifolds and I also use walnut shells to clean the carbon off the rotors.


Hello, is anyone doing the math here? We haven't even gotten to the seals and components for building the block yet.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

A big part of being a successful DIY type guy is knowing/accepting your limitations.
Very few people are adept at every phase of automotive work and, due to financial or time restraints, even they sometimes sub work out.

I think RR is making some valid points although possibly with too much emphasis on the hardware required and not enough on the experience.
I consider myself fairly experienced with engines but they were all piston units, not rotaries.
I couldn't tell the difference between a usable housing and a bad one...same with rotors and irons, because I've not seen hundreds from which to learn.

I'll lob a bit of advice at y'all from the north side of fifty...you get no extra credit nor slack for doing it yourself.
The engine doesn't care if this is your first time and you're bravely slogging through a rebuild.
Miss a flaw, make an error in assembly/measurement and it will grenade, regardless of your best intentions.

If you think about it, the warranty attached to the work that Kevin and Ben do (whatever it is), is just a bet they're making...they wager that their expertise/tools/experience will produce a good running engine and they're on the hook if they don't.
Is that a wager you want to make with yourself?

killahrx7

When I wanted to do my first rebuild, the hardest nut and bolt to pull we're the front and the rear, after that, if you watch the video and read the book you should be able to get by. Watch the video and read more than once before starting. Also you might need a friend to hold the engine while trying to loosing the front bolt and rear nut. When I did my first rebuild I wasn't trying to save money, I just wanted to learn.

younG_Gunner

iTrader: (2)

Not to be a jerk, but I'm pretty sure this question has been asked a few times already. I remember looking at lists when I started out a few years back.

198713bt

iTrader: (2)

Building your own engine or having someone else build it is a choice you should make after reading about each option. I chose to build my engine and although it turned out well, it was definitely a lot of work. 90% of my time was spent reading and learning so I knew what I was doing when I did the physical work. If you start digging through the thousands of engine building threads on this site, you'll learn what tools you need and how to accomplish the job. There are a ton of people here that are willing to help as long as you are willing to put the effort in. Start reading old threads instead of making new ones everytime you have a thought and you'll find every piece of information you need. If you still arent sure about the process of rebuilding after looking thru old threads, you should probably just pay for a rebuild.

jaggermouth

iTrader: (1)

Hey, come one, you can use the turkey baster at christmas time!
But most of those tools are basic tools and the rotary specific ones make the job easier. If I didn't have a compressor then I either would have needed two people or some rotary tools.
Honestly, stripping down to a short block took a lot longer than disassembly of the short block.

Then again I don't have anyone here to rebuild unless I ship or I take a ferry ($70 each way plus 4 hours and then 4 hours of driving). I have also been out of work this week and since I can't sit around, I decided to try it out.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

I think I may have someone rebuild it because I dont want to end up doing the work twice.

Time isn't a problem, however I dont have a lot of money, don't have any big workspace, and I really want the engine running the first time it goes in.

However I may want to get tools to disassemble the block if possible since I do have two of them.

MrGoodnight

iTrader: (1)

What I did was make friends with a local engine builder.
I paid him to build and port my engine but I was there with him hands on learning.
Like he assembled one rotor and I assembled the other right next to him.
That way you are learning and you know it's being done right the first time.
The only thing I didn't do was clearance side seals and stack and torque the engine, and he did the under the front cover stuff as well.

So from tear down, cleaning, to the final steps I got to learn from a pro and have the peace of mind that its not going to blow because of a newbie mistake I may have made myself.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

If I had that as an option I'd love it but finding someone that's local that's knowledgeable that you can trust that'd be up for something like that is nearly impossible unless you already know someone.

I personally wouldn't trust just many people, especially someone that's never built a wankel rotary engine and only pistons.

MrGoodnight

iTrader: (1)

Very true, I was engine 93 I think? So he had almost 100 engines under his belt.
You might just want to send it out to be built by a reputable builder on this forum.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

Exactly...if you have someone to guide you through the first time, you can do the next one yourself no problem. That person will (hopefully) explain each step as they do it and explain what pitfalls should be avoided at each step. That is knowledge that will take you MANY tries to figure out on your own.

Remember, you're not usually paying specialists for what they DO, you're paying them for what they KNOW.

misterstyx69

iTrader: (142)

This thread is sort of "looking into my Future".
When all is said an done I am going to have tools that were used once and I paid a shitload of money for!,that nobody local can use!
I stopped at the Flywheel socket and rear axle socket.
Although a rebuild would be a nice Ego boost,I can't see investing in any more tools!.
Send the engine out to get done and go out on a date with the GF..you'll win twice..lol!

hitekfc3s

im actually thinking of buying a 2nd motor and learning on that one, but im a novice mechanic with access to a shop and know a rotary tech(who built the car i bought) so im in a different boat. I would recommend watching all of those videos and read a **** ton of build threads if you still feel confident enough. Even then, hands on learning and busting a few knuckles is the only way youre gonna learn the ins and outs. I eventually want to work on performance cars, and everybody i know(including previous owner) tells me my tii is not reliable enough for a dd, but i want to learn how to resolve those problems when they occur(and i know they will).

diabolical1

iTrader: (3)

for what it's worth, as someone stuck in the painful purgatory between advanced DIY-er and semi-professional, i endorse 80 to 90% of what Rotary Resurrection has said thus far. i've been into rotaries since the mid-80s and i've been building engines since the mid-90s. eventually i would like to make an honest-to-goodness business out of it, but that's a other story ....

i'll share this: when i lived back home-home (NYC) i was a bit oblivious to what it actually took to disassemble and then reassemble an engine because i actually had friends and many of them worked in or owned shops. anything i couldn't get done at home was literally 10 to 30 minutes away.

when i moved to where i live now 11 years ago, i found myself being "stuck" a lot and i'd essentially spend a lot of time either building tools or trying to figure out what a tool was actually called so i could purchase it. now i can't tell you what i've spent over the last 11 years for tools, but what i can tell you is this: if i were building engines for my own consumption only, and limited even further to only what i NEEDED, then it would not be worth buying these tools that would essentially sit around taking up space. (just a sidenote: Mazda rotaries and VW-Audi engines are designed to break you spiritually, emotionally physically and financially).

bottomline is if you plan to build and work in volume or if you're dedicated enough to experiment for the hell of it, getting all (or most) of the tools Rotary Resurrection listed will be worth it in the long run. if you only plan to build as needed, either find a rotorhead local to you that has tools and will assist/supervise your use or have someone professional build it for you.

the list that was posted above is pretty comprehensive - obviously porting tools (if you are so inclined) are going to be more on top of that. i've actually been thinking about getting a blasting cabinet and parts washer recently, but i have limited space in the garage. about the only thing i can add to the list are bandages and alcohol (for drinking moreso than disinfecting).