FD Suspension in an FC
#1
@brapgarage
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FD Suspension in an FC
Recently I began researching a lot about suspension. I came across the contest of MacPherson vs. Double Wishbone suspension. In my findings it seems that it's almost unanimous decision that the double wishbone is superior with regards to handling and adjustability. So I wondered what if somebody took the double wishbone suspension out of an FD (or another car with double wishbone suspension) and used it to replace the MacPherson strut system in the FC?
How much of a gain in handling would their be?
How would one approach a task like this?
How difficult would it be?
So I thought I would open it up for discussion to the kick *** members of the forum and hopefully get some good comments on this concept. Please share any thoughts, questions, or answers you may have concerning this concept.
***I'M NOT ASKING ABOUT PRACTICALITY OR COST-EFFECTIVENESS SO PLEASE DON'T EVEN BRING IT UP, I'm simply sharing a theoritical idea for public input and discussion.
How much of a gain in handling would their be?
How would one approach a task like this?
How difficult would it be?
So I thought I would open it up for discussion to the kick *** members of the forum and hopefully get some good comments on this concept. Please share any thoughts, questions, or answers you may have concerning this concept.
***I'M NOT ASKING ABOUT PRACTICALITY OR COST-EFFECTIVENESS SO PLEASE DON'T EVEN BRING IT UP, I'm simply sharing a theoritical idea for public input and discussion.
Last edited by cleanseven; 04-19-07 at 11:08 PM. Reason: typo
#2
I don't know a lot in the suspension area. but if you took another cars suspension and put it on an fc I think it would mess it up, The spring rate and all that stuff would be set up for another car.
I think you would be better off going for coil overs designed for the fc
I think you would be better off going for coil overs designed for the fc
#3
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You can set up any system you want in any car, you can get different spring rates by swapping out springs plus the weight between an FD and an FC is so similare most spring rates are the same anyway.
It would require alot of fabrication, that is all i know, you'd probably have to make your own subframe then mount the shocks a special way by modifying the sheetmetal, then you could just swap over the rest of the components. Except maybe the steering rack/tie rods would have to be modified as well.
It would require alot of fabrication, that is all i know, you'd probably have to make your own subframe then mount the shocks a special way by modifying the sheetmetal, then you could just swap over the rest of the components. Except maybe the steering rack/tie rods would have to be modified as well.
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Originally Posted by cleanseven
Recently I began researching a lot about suspension. I came across the contest of MacPherson vs. Double Wishbone suspension. In my findings it seems that it's almost unanimous decision that the double wishbone is superior with regards to handling and adjustability. So I wondered what if somebody took the double wishbone suspension out of an FD (or another car with double wishbone suspension) and used it to replace the MacPherson strut system in the FC?
How much of a gain in handling would their be?
How would one approach a task like this?
How difficult would it be?
So I thought I would open it up for discussion to the kick *** members of the forum and hopefully get some good comments on this concept. Please share any thoughts, questions, or answers you may have concerning this concept.
***I'M NOT ASKING ABOUT PRACTICALITY OR COST-EFFECTIVENESS SO PLEASE DON'T EVEN BRING IT UP, I'm simply sharing a theoritical idea for public input and discussion.
How much of a gain in handling would their be?
How would one approach a task like this?
How difficult would it be?
So I thought I would open it up for discussion to the kick *** members of the forum and hopefully get some good comments on this concept. Please share any thoughts, questions, or answers you may have concerning this concept.
***I'M NOT ASKING ABOUT PRACTICALITY OR COST-EFFECTIVENESS SO PLEASE DON'T EVEN BRING IT UP, I'm simply sharing a theoritical idea for public input and discussion.
For example, a 240sx rb26dett swap is easier than a lot of people think. The r32 skyline front subframes practically bolt on to the 240sx. Almost everything off the r32 clip is used, and fabrication is done to make the upper control arm fit. 240sx has standard macpherson vs 3z and skyline multilink
Honestly though, "Macpherson strut" sounds cool, but almost any car today uses macpherson struts, multilink or double wishbone is just a macpherson strut with more links added. Just make your suspension tight with good movement and no binding. Just make sure your control arm has good travel and your struts ahve good travel
#5
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A lot of cost and effort with not too much benefit. If one would go this way I'd say go completely custom, why go to all that time and effort to bolt in some other compromised setup, design it properly for maximum performance and make tubular arms, not just stamped steel.
Seriously though, all the 911's have struts, so do the M3's and many other really high performance cars. It works just fine for them, and so it can for us.
Seriously though, all the 911's have struts, so do the M3's and many other really high performance cars. It works just fine for them, and so it can for us.
#7
@brapgarage
Thread Starter
Well this isn't exactly something and actually considering. But I remember hearing that Rhys Millen swapped out the suspension in the Solstice he drives with the complete suspension of an S14....I think that led me to this question.
I'm really curious about the physics and positives and negatives of such a swap with the FC/FD swap I proposed.
Initial D: For conversational purposes I used MacPherson vs. Double wishbone. We could speak of it as single versus double a-arms if you prefer, but that was an attempt at clarity. /// I didn't even think about the swapping of an entire subframe. That sounds like a fun project, but also a difficult one.
Does anyone know about Rhys's car and how anything from that process could be applied in this scenario?
I'm really curious about the physics and positives and negatives of such a swap with the FC/FD swap I proposed.
Initial D: For conversational purposes I used MacPherson vs. Double wishbone. We could speak of it as single versus double a-arms if you prefer, but that was an attempt at clarity. /// I didn't even think about the swapping of an entire subframe. That sounds like a fun project, but also a difficult one.
Does anyone know about Rhys's car and how anything from that process could be applied in this scenario?
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#8
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Originally Posted by cleanseven
Initial D: For conversational purposes I used MacPherson vs. Double wishbone. We could speak of it as single versus double a-arms if you prefer, but that was an attempt at clarity. /// I didn't even think about the swapping of an entire subframe. That sounds like a fun project, but also a difficult one.
Does anyone know about Rhys's car and how anything from that process could be applied in this scenario?
Does anyone know about Rhys's car and how anything from that process could be applied in this scenario?
I came froma nissan background, A lot of Datsun parts are either "bolt on" or easily modified to fit, newer nissans too. I had a datsun 510, and people would do crazy conversions, some with a lot of fabrication, some that were bolt on off same year or newer nissans.
The way the fc is vs the fd, it seems like there is a big difference. I have never seen the underside of a fd, so I should stop talking
#9
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If you think you can retrofit the FD suspension onto an FC and have everything work fine&dandy, that's a lot of assumption...
I'd put money the car will handle like ****.
Suspension design takes volumes to explain and years to understand.
It's not a simple swap and install process.
And if you think the FD suspension geometry is so great...
The rear suspenion doesn't use an "ideal" 1:1 ratio on the damper.
A good driver in a bad chassis will almost always outhandle a bad driver in a good chassis.
Not to be dick or anything, but I don't think you can take 100% advantage of the FC3S suspension in the first place.
Learn how to drive well first before thinking about doing mods like this.
Oh, and that Millen S14 suspension swap...
Silvias have crappy suspension designs.
The rear suspension is inherently instable due to the suspension arm geometries.
Good for drifting...bad for grip driving.
So it's really a stupid thing to go swapping S14 suspension on anything unless your stock suspenion is already crappy.
-Ted
I'd put money the car will handle like ****.
Suspension design takes volumes to explain and years to understand.
It's not a simple swap and install process.
And if you think the FD suspension geometry is so great...
The rear suspenion doesn't use an "ideal" 1:1 ratio on the damper.
A good driver in a bad chassis will almost always outhandle a bad driver in a good chassis.
Not to be dick or anything, but I don't think you can take 100% advantage of the FC3S suspension in the first place.
Learn how to drive well first before thinking about doing mods like this.
Oh, and that Millen S14 suspension swap...
Silvias have crappy suspension designs.
The rear suspension is inherently instable due to the suspension arm geometries.
Good for drifting...bad for grip driving.
So it's really a stupid thing to go swapping S14 suspension on anything unless your stock suspenion is already crappy.
-Ted
#10
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^Its very true I'm finally handling my car well after a couple years, and you guys would laugh at my set up but when I get to show you video you'll be like....whaaa!? Yes learn to bring out the car's potential before anything else. You must understand what you're trying to get rid of.
#11
@brapgarage
Thread Starter
Ted:
I must say I enjoy your comments on the forum more than most. Even if they "sound like a dick". So firstly...much respect to you. Having said that, if you read above I did mention that I wasn't at all considering actually doing this swap, nor did I assume that it would be a bolt on procedure. I was simply promoting a discussion.
With concerns to real life, yes I whole-heartedly agree that the driver's skill will out-weigh the suspension set-up more than anything else. I'm actually not planning on installing coilovers even until I feel I'm much more capable of pushing my car as it is (damn near stock in every way) to the furthest limits I feel I can achieve - then upgrades as necessary.
Actually, I don't think the FD suspension is "so great". Hence my drive to research the entire suspension set ups of both cars. You mentioned that the FD doesn't have the ideal 1:1 ratio on the damper. Could you elaborate on that a little bit more? I don't know what the 1:1 ratio means, and why it's desirable, so any help in clearing that up is very very appreciated.
Also if you could talk a bit more on why the silvia suspension is inherently unstable that would be awesome as well.
I know it's kind of a lot to ask for, but at least it's a clear sign that I respect your knowledge. If not for that I'd just blow you off like so many other dicks on here!
**If anyone else can answer these questions, please do so as well.
I must say I enjoy your comments on the forum more than most. Even if they "sound like a dick". So firstly...much respect to you. Having said that, if you read above I did mention that I wasn't at all considering actually doing this swap, nor did I assume that it would be a bolt on procedure. I was simply promoting a discussion.
With concerns to real life, yes I whole-heartedly agree that the driver's skill will out-weigh the suspension set-up more than anything else. I'm actually not planning on installing coilovers even until I feel I'm much more capable of pushing my car as it is (damn near stock in every way) to the furthest limits I feel I can achieve - then upgrades as necessary.
Actually, I don't think the FD suspension is "so great". Hence my drive to research the entire suspension set ups of both cars. You mentioned that the FD doesn't have the ideal 1:1 ratio on the damper. Could you elaborate on that a little bit more? I don't know what the 1:1 ratio means, and why it's desirable, so any help in clearing that up is very very appreciated.
Also if you could talk a bit more on why the silvia suspension is inherently unstable that would be awesome as well.
I know it's kind of a lot to ask for, but at least it's a clear sign that I respect your knowledge. If not for that I'd just blow you off like so many other dicks on here!
**If anyone else can answer these questions, please do so as well.
Last edited by cleanseven; 04-20-07 at 01:50 AM. Reason: typos...
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Yeah, it would b too much work, time , and money, and it would take time and trail and error to do this. Buiying a FD would b cheaper
I do like seeing people's fabrication and conversions too, though
I do like seeing people's fabrication and conversions too, though
#15
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Originally Posted by cleanseven
Actually, I don't think the FD suspension is "so great". Hence my drive to research the entire suspension set ups of both cars. You mentioned that the FD doesn't have the ideal 1:1 ratio on the damper. Could you elaborate on that a little bit more? I don't know what the 1:1 ratio means, and why it's desirable, so any help in clearing that up is very very appreciated.
To calculate this, you draw a line through the center of the damper body, and it should end up smack dab in the middle of the tire where it contacts the road.
If you do this with the stock FD rear, the rear damper is actually more in-board from the tire contact patch center.
I would also recommend these books:
http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Chassis...7052100&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Car-Vehic...7052100&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engine...7052100&sr=1-6
Concentrate on asymmetrical double wishbone suspensions, and I think that's what you're looking for...
Also if you could talk a bit more on why the silvia suspension is inherently unstable that would be awesome as well.
Draw lines through them and see where they intersect...
The Nissan S-chassis rear suspension, the lines intersect below the road surface - this induces an unstable suspension system.
Do this with the FC3S rear suspension, and you'll see that the lines intersect above the road surface - this is a much more stable suspension geometry.
This is one of the reasons why the Nissan S-chassis drifts so well...cause the rear suspension is never set solidly in the first place - the rear slides real easily, cause the suspension is never planted solidly to work well.
The Nissan S-chassis was never known to be a "well handling chassis"...it does drift very well though.
-Ted
#16
@brapgarage
Thread Starter
Ted:
Thanks a lot for the info, I'll definitely be giving those books a read.
I really like seeing people's random conversions, too. Anytime someone does custom fabrication to a car it's extremely interesting to me. It's always nice to see something that has that whole "one of a kind" thing going on.
Anyone else have insight or opinions on the FD / FC suspenion thing?
Or any talk about suspension in general?
Thanks a lot for the info, I'll definitely be giving those books a read.
Originally Posted by initial D is REAL!
Yeah, it would b too much work, time , and money, and it would take time and trail and error to do this. Buiying a FD would b cheaper
I do like seeing people's fabrication and conversions too, though
I do like seeing people's fabrication and conversions too, though
I really like seeing people's random conversions, too. Anytime someone does custom fabrication to a car it's extremely interesting to me. It's always nice to see something that has that whole "one of a kind" thing going on.
Anyone else have insight or opinions on the FD / FC suspenion thing?
Or any talk about suspension in general?
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Didn't someone have a picture on here of an FC that had a full racing suspension on it, like with a large chunk of the floor cut out and diagonally mounted dampers and everything? Wish I could remember where I saw that.
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Originally Posted by umi415
I thinks it is on Teds site
http://fc3spro.com/TECH/FM2W/sus.htm
If you're going to spend the time and effort and money is no object, there ya go!
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Originally Posted by RETed
Most engineers strive to hit this 1:1 ratio, where the ratio of the damper movement is the same exact distances as the wheel travels.
To calculate this, you draw a line through the center of the damper body, and it should end up smack dab in the middle of the tire where it contacts the road.
If you do this with the stock FD rear, the rear damper is actually more in-board from the tire contact patch center.
I would also recommend these books:
http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Chassis...7052100&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Car-Vehic...7052100&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engine...7052100&sr=1-6
Concentrate on asymmetrical double wishbone suspensions, and I think that's what you're looking for...
Look at the arms of the rear suspension from the rear of the car...
Draw lines through them and see where they intersect...
The Nissan S-chassis rear suspension, the lines intersect below the road surface - this induces an unstable suspension system.
Do this with the FC3S rear suspension, and you'll see that the lines intersect above the road surface - this is a much more stable suspension geometry.
This is one of the reasons why the Nissan S-chassis drifts so well...cause the rear suspension is never set solidly in the first place - the rear slides real easily, cause the suspension is never planted solidly to work well.
The Nissan S-chassis was never known to be a "well handling chassis"...it does drift very well though.
-Ted
To calculate this, you draw a line through the center of the damper body, and it should end up smack dab in the middle of the tire where it contacts the road.
If you do this with the stock FD rear, the rear damper is actually more in-board from the tire contact patch center.
I would also recommend these books:
http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Chassis...7052100&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Car-Vehic...7052100&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Chassis-Engine...7052100&sr=1-6
Concentrate on asymmetrical double wishbone suspensions, and I think that's what you're looking for...
Look at the arms of the rear suspension from the rear of the car...
Draw lines through them and see where they intersect...
The Nissan S-chassis rear suspension, the lines intersect below the road surface - this induces an unstable suspension system.
Do this with the FC3S rear suspension, and you'll see that the lines intersect above the road surface - this is a much more stable suspension geometry.
This is one of the reasons why the Nissan S-chassis drifts so well...cause the rear suspension is never set solidly in the first place - the rear slides real easily, cause the suspension is never planted solidly to work well.
The Nissan S-chassis was never known to be a "well handling chassis"...it does drift very well though.
-Ted
I can only afford one of those books. ANywhere I can DL them from? LOL Nice links. thanks! Is that how you got that hot babe? She looks familiar
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