After installing the racingbeat DTSS elminators the rear of the car seams much more confident on the road course. Specifically through elevation changes and chicanes.

However, by just by looking at the rear wheels you can see more negative camber and what LOOKS like toe in. I'm not sure if this is just a default and I never noticed it before... but can this happen, is it possible that I adjusted something improperly when reinstalling the rear hubs?

The installation was pretty straight forward, I cant imagine I installed them improperly.

 

You're just thinking it.

I look at my car all the time and think the same thing. Negative camber and toe in. If you're really worried about it, go get it checked out at an alignment shop. But really, it's been there all along

 

Yeah, no DTSS is nice....no unpredicatable snaping is nice

 

same here...

 

Rear wheels are toe'd in, and they SHOULD be. That helps the car start turning in, just like the front's being toe'd out does, but on a much lesser scale. It's one of the ways to encourage oversteer for the track, only without the DTSS it's alot more predictable.

 

yeah, but have you ever driven a FC with the DTSS new or near new or even working correctly (example= not worn out)???

But yes, for the FC driver that has worn out DTSS bushings or little experience, the more solid replacement bushings makes them more confident in their driving of the FC.

 

I am driving a stock GXL right now as I work on my DTSS eliminated TII.

I like the faster turn in with the stock DTSS as it is in the preliminary toe out, but as the cornering load increases the stock system gets a bit sketchy.

Overall, the stock DTSS works pretty well and is subtle on the stock wheels, tires etc as the GXL has it, but it felt progressively more twitchy on the TII as I went to less body roll, wider rims, wider stickier tires, etc- until I eliminated DTSS and it felt great.

DTSS works on deflection of a bushing by a set load. It provides toe out for fast initial tun in and then toe in to steer you out of a spin just at the edge of STOCK grip levels

The load on the bushing gets higher and higher the more grip you have, so on an enhanced handling 2nd gen it is steering you out of a spin WAY before you are close to losing traction.

 

Yeah, that is true...I have never done that.

I would say my best memory of the DTSS or the worn out bushings doing weird things was during a wet autox.

Started a left turn and used to much power and it started to oversteering left....then it oversteered right because I over corrected all of the sudden traction regained and the car snapped hard....basicly my passenger hit is helmet hard agains the b pillar. It was intresting...

Got the in car vid if your intrested...

James

 

Ice, do you know where someone can get stock replacement DTSS bushings (not eliminators)? Or what makes a good replacement for the stock bushings?

 

U can't buy just the bushing from mazda....you have to buy the entire floating hub from them....with the bushing. Nobody makes a bushing that does what the stock one did.

James

 

I've never thought of it like that, but it does make sense.

 

Started a left turn and used to much power and it started to oversteering left....then it oversteered right because I over corrected all of the sudden traction regained and the car snapped hard....basicly my passenger hit is helmet hard agains the b pillar. It was intresting...


What you describe is typical performance of an open differential being affected by weight transfer from body roll in the wet. Open diff sends power to the wheel with the least traction and body roll is unloading one rear corner at a time.

The DTSS has minimal effect on handling after turn in in the wet as the traction usually isn't there to load the bushing.

 

post the vid wankel...i'd like to see it

 

Not exactly an open diff....s5 tii....but not exactly lsd either

James

 

I'd say that the rear end didn't feel noticibly sloppy prior to installation, however afterwards the rear end was more crisp. I noticed more response from *specifically* elevation changes in corners.

I also have a non-stock suspension setup however, sway bars, front and rear, end links adjusted for zero load on the bars, and koni yellows with stock springs.

I previously owned an s4 GXL with wider then stock 17 inch wheels and the toe out was VERY noticible under light cornering, I believe this is what BLUETII was referring to.

 

I am just saying that bagging on the system is lame if you have never driven with a properlly functioning system. Maybe if you had said, its much tighter than my 20 year old worn out system... then it might not have rubbed me the wrong way.

Which follows to, it makes me wonder how much better you would be driving with a properlly functioning system. I know in street/mountain/high speed applications, I am considerably faster in a FC that has a properlly working system.

But on the other hand I know I am in the minority on that.

Many people are used to and grew up driving front wheel drive econ-o-boxes with high amounts of rear understeer; and that toe shift will really throw them off if they are not expecting or used to it. 98 percent of america is that way.

But for me; well I look at the hard bushing DTSS eliminators much like I do Banjo bolts on the PD. Its a Band aid, not an upgrade.

 

To each his own is really the best way to look at it. I'm content with the DTSS removal. Perhaps it is not a Band aid, but a driving style, or preference?

 

i have a t2, and dorve my brothers 87 NA with the DTSS still in, and stock sixe tires and suspension. I can save your *** sometimes, coming around corners, if you have enough speed, and begin to drift it will put your *** back in line. Though to much angle and not enough throttle will diffenetly snap back. So be careful, i wasnt the smartest when i was driving at the time. No accident or anything, just shouldnt have been driving that fast in a old NA, let alone on the street in the day.

 

holy hell, my spelling is worse then a 5th grader! Sorry bout that, 430am in the middleeast doesnt help

 

http://media.putfile.com/RotaryR

Was back in 99 racing in Winston Salem NC.

The oversteer starts at about 0:06

James

 

you are too touchy... waaaah......

to me driving with dtss was alot safer haha..it was a lil intimidated without it i noticed that it was harder for me to corner without it untili learned the bushings being gone... im in the military when we enter on to our bases we have to drive a lil' chicane/serpintine to fit through the gates.. when i replace my rear suspension i still had the old suspension messed up bald tires. with dtss those bald tires still had grip.. without dtss those same tires i could get the car sideways lifting off the throttle and turning in at 20-25 mph. scared me a lil i promptly put the new tires on the following day. about 4 days later i was pulling .99 in the mountains weeeee.. the biscuit has adjusted .... umm drifting is easier and the car has forced my to drive smoother with less snap and jerk unless i want to spin round and round.....

 

Check your rear toe angle, even with a simple tape measurement on the front / rearmost reachable tread on the tires, to get the toe back to 0 or 1/4" toe in. DTSS adds toe in under cornering loads to increase oversteer. Disabling DTSS allows you to actually set the toe where you want it. You may want to add some or take some away. As a rule, add toe in for more oversteer, take away if the car is too tail happy. Having a bit of rear toe-out will make the car seem to rotate into a turn faster, but once in a turn it will understeer (yes I've tried).

DTSS is an awesome mod. I almost forget that I did it years ago and set my rear toe once, and forgot about it.

 

Could you explain where I should measure from to determine the toe angle?

 

While laying on the ground behind hte drivers side door, just ahead of the rear tire, place a tape measure on one of the gaps between the treads on the far wheel (do this by holding the extended tape face up, under the car), then read it on another gap on the near wheel. Repeat on the back side of both tires and note the difference. You can't get a real accurate measurement that way but you can get an idea of the state of toe angle. I generally set mine to about 1/8" toe in (shorter measurement on the front side of the tires) using this crude measurement. Then go for a drive (make sure tires are inflated properly first) and slam some turns. Note if the car starts to squeal the front or rear tires when established in the turn. DO THIS ON A COUNTRY ROAD, NOT IN THE CITY!!!


Now, if it understeers more than you like, add toe in. Do this by rotating the cam adjuster at the front of the rear trailing arm(s) forward such that the trailing arm is pulled forward slightly in the process.

If you feel the rear to be too unstable and want less oversteer, turn the cam adjusters the opposite direction. There are tick marks on the cams to assist you in getting the same angle on each side.
Does that make sense?

 

I agree with you 90% of the way there Icemark. But here's the thing... strictly from a price point look at how much the eliminator bushings cost compared to getting the stock bushings. $40 from Racing Beat and it at least works like a normal car. Weather or not the DTSS bushings make your car grib better/turn faster or any sort. Any FC will have worn out DTSS bushings... at least there is a cheap subsitute to fixing it to "normal car" status. But money aside... I would rather have working DTSS bushings on the car rather than off of it.