j200pruf

iTrader: (4)

How far away would a roll cage have to be from your head and not worry about hitting it? Cuz It seems if a cage was pretty tight up against the metal of the car that you wouldn't hit it.

Rx-7Blazin

it must tak alot to crush the top of an rx-7 in street driving cuz my parts car was rolled and setting upsidedown and it did not to to much damage. also i think its a better idea to have a harness than not because there are not as many rollover as t-bones front end and rear end collisions. if you where t-boned then your stock seat belt helps you none your head goes flying into the window next to you and with a harness you would not his the side. and in front end and rear end collisions you would be held in much better and ther would be a next to none chance that you would hit your head on the stearing wheel or winsheald. also if you where hit and started spinning you would be trown to eather side and with harnesses it wouldnot happen. i think its better to have it than not and it your really worried then get a rear roll cage where you cannot hit it.

as you can see in the pic of my parts car if you had a harness you would not have been hurt. and if you didnt you could hit your head on the roof while rolling or go forward and hit the part that got bent down, i say a harness is better than none

Silkworm

What the hell is with you guys. Someone tells you don't do something, and you want to find 50 thousand excuses why you can.

You want to run harnesses on the street, fine. Go ahead.

Now, some 16 year old kid reads your message, goes out with his friends and dies when he flips his car 4 times over the interstate.

How in the hell are you going to feel about that?

You don't agree, fine. You want to take the risks yourselves, fine. But the reasons Barwick posted are 100% valid.

Harnesses without a cage leaves your body no where to go if the structure of the car fails. Is that likely in an average street incident, no, it's not.

Now ask yourself WHY YOU WANT HARNESSES. To look cool? Ok, the Schroth are DOT legal, sounds like they designed a way to allow you to slide out in a rollover, that sound like the way to go in that regard.

Or do you want to have a better hold in your seat. You like to go canyon carving or hard street driving. Suddenly, the odds of having a big rollover accident are a hell of a lot greater.

A cage without a helmet is begging for a smashed skull in a side impact collison.

Anyway, enough preaching.

Later.

PaulC

Silkworm

Oh, J200pruf, my cage is as tight as I can get it against the A pillar, I cut and rewelded the floorpan to move my seat inboard another 2 inches, and still, with a helmet on, I bounce my head on the rollcage in hard transitions, and definitely hit it in my rollover.

PaulC

88IntegraLS

I agree with the race car folks in this thread. Hey Paul, how much performance gain did your Koseis give you, being 4lbs lighter per wheel than the baloney slicers? Shave any seconds off you times?

jasonw3579

i know what you're saying, and until i tested it in my computer chair, i agreed with you. the way i tested it was that i flipped my chair sideways, and like you said, my body is trying to go the opposite direction of the car. but once my chair (or the car's side, continuing its roll) hits the ground, you keep going down too. And if the car keeps rolling around, the side that is on the ground is going to lift up, but your body isn't (with normal seatbelt) and bam, your head hits the side. i wouldn't suggest testing this in your chair though, i'm a professional idiot.

Rx-7Blazin

damn dude settle down ****, what the hell im sayin it that using a harness caould increase your chances in living in a front end, rear end and t-bone colision. i never say if it flipped over you couldnt hurt or kill yourself im saying that i think in a majority of suff that can happen the roof totaly caving in is not as likely as all the other stuff that can happen while driving where a harnes could help

Dyre

Accually, if your using harnesses in a car without a roll bar, the top straps are probably mounted at a severe angle... in which case even a simple front end collision could cause massive back/spine damage as your spine compresses instead of your chest-

Rx-7Blazin

??? what dude do you know what your talking about really that makes no sence

RarestRX

Yo,

From the Schroth website:

SCHROTH Safety Products GmbH (formerly Carl F. SCHROTH GmbH), a German corporation, was founded in 1946. In 1954, SCHROTH became the first German manufacturer of seat harnesses for the automotive market. In the mid '70s, SCHROTH started to concentrate on the restraint systems market and has become the world's largest manufacturer of harness systems.

SCHROTH Safety Products GmbH, headquartered in Arnsberg, Germany, together with SCHROTH Safety Products Corp., the company's Florida-based U.S. subsidiary, operating directly and through its worldwide distributor network currently manufactures and supplies in excess of 100,000 harnesses per year.

SCHROTH Safety Products unswervingly believes in and permanently focuses on its slogan "Safety through Technology".

The company uses state-of-the-art design methodologies and highly advanced research-and-development tools such as accredited dynamic sled facilities in Europe and the U.S. This commitment ensure that SCHROTH harnesses not only offer the best possible safety and survival performance, but also meet the human needs of comfort and ease of operation. Typically, SCHROTH will run up to 30 development crash tests in any given year to continuously improve technology for the aviation and automobile industries.

Consistent manufacturing quality is ensured by the implementation of monitoring processes such as Statistical Process Control (SPC) and, where appropriate, 100% inspection of incoming and outgoing products.

[End].

I'm not trying to start ****...just when I hear, "Thems things is gonna kills you!" on a good product that I've been using for 7 years...you better be able to prove it to me.

Schroth has been doing this for 49 years. It employs engineers specifically to design and test harnesses for the street. They crash cars to test them. Their product is both DOT and TUV approved.

I went to Google, put in:

schroth rollover fatality
schroth rollover fatalities
schroth fatalities

I got zilch.

[Edit]: For giggles, I went to VWVortex, the largest VW Forum around. Mostly Schroth's are used in VW's...you know, the German thang. I put in:

schroth rollover
schroth fatality

Zilch again, in both recent and archived threads.

[Edit]

Again, I'm not trying to start **** with anyone...just providing information on a product that I believe in.

If you are thinking about harnesses for the street, make sure they're Schroth and check their PDF to make sure your seat style is approved. IMHO, I think they are a great way to increase the survivability of the majority of real world street accidents...especially if you have an older car with ailing belts.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "My 2 bits."

3isacharm

nearly everyone here is making a valid point. the hard part is deciding which side you want to choose. while i want to have a firmer hold in the seat for autox'ing and open track days, i don't want to guaruntee a broken neck if i roll. i wouldn't wear them on the street anyway, even if i was canyon carving, now that this info has been brought to my attention.

jasonw, thanks for your superb test of my theory. i'm glad you proved it wrong because it was just a theory anyway.

Barwick, you say, "how fast can you wriggle," but with stock seatbelts you still have to wriggle. maybe not as much, but the point of the schroth harness is to become as close to OEM (meaning a 3-point) during a roll as possible, meaning you'd have to go through a similar effort to get out of harms way. bouncing around like that doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me though. both choices present large levels of danger to the passenger.

the roll bar+helmet+harness seems to be the best combo for safety on the street (minus the helmet) and track. you could wear your harness while driving hard, and if you roll, the bar is there to protect you, but you won't have to worry about your head if you don't have a helmet on. now, if only someone could think something up to prevent those damn SUV's from plowing the passenger compartments into oblivion.

theonlygreat

i've got a problem no matter how you look at it. my head easily hits the inside lip of the sunroof or the doorjam when i hit a decent sized bump with the automatic belt and the lap belt on. so lets just do our best to strap ourselves in with whatever we prefer and hope that we don't crash into **** or go wildly out of control

i'm currently trying to find a racing seat that will mount me lower in the car, i don't like to hit my head going over potholes

j200pruf

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the reply Paul cuz looking at your car (and sitting in mine) made me think that that was possilbe, but now that you tell me that it isn't.
Are we still decided that a rollbar that has a cage in the back is still bad on the street?

mazdized

HEHE yes a car with full cage and no helmet on the head is like a rolling death trap. The best ones are the ones I see on ricer Hondas where the bar is right around the driver and passengers temple and forehead. Well if you are 4foot nothing like the ricers than I guess is it ok.

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

RX7blazin,
If you know how to install a harness properly you know exactly what he's talking about. Specifically, the shoulder straps of a harness system should be mounted 4 inches below the shoulder line and form an angle of 45deg from shoulder to mounting point. If the straps are mounted at an angle greater than 45deg or mounted more than 4 inches below the shoulder line (as in to the floor behind the seat - which I've seen all to often) in a rear end or frontal collision the forward motion of the chest when pushing on the harnesses will cause the body position to be pushed down into the seat thereby compressing the spine and causing severe spinal injury.
Regards,
Crispy
- love this thread, Darwins theory at it's finest

Barwick

RarestRX: You're right, they're SAFE belts, but in event of a rollover, what happens to you? That is why I said they're unsafe without a rollcage. You will get crushed. Do what you want, but don't try to convince some other guy that they're safe, they're not.

Barwick

Exactly. I had a race seat that the holes for the harnesses were WAY too low for safety. The shoulder harnesses (before we fixed them) went over my shoulders and then down about 2 inches or so through the holes, and then to the mounting point on the rollcage. If I were to get into an accident, I would have pushed forward on them, which would demand "slack" from the harnesses, and since there wasn't any more "slack" to come out of them, they would try to make the shortest path between the two mounting points, and the "hump" that my shoulders made (by going up and over them, then back down) isn't a very straight line. The harnesses would have pressed down on my shoulders and probably would have damaged my spine. Not happy. I ended up cutting two holes for the harnesses just about level with my shoulders.

Rx-7Blazin

barwick so your saying these haarnesses are not safe??? look id say there safer than stock because you are eliminating what a stock belt doesnt do effcently like any collisions causing you to fly sideways therfor hitting your head on a windoow or door still also the belts dont kick in right away causing you to lurge forward then suddeny stop cuasing wiplash, and also on that same point it could make you hit the stearing wheel or window. so basicly your inreasing your chances of living in the majority of accedents, but increasing your risk that in an unlikly event your whole roof comes down on your head you could not get out of the way. and looking the other way if you went from a harness to a stock seatbelt your increasing your odds of being hurt in a side impact, spin around, frontal and rear collosion instead of just a increasing your odds of being hurt in juat a rollover

jon88se

all good points, but like i said boys...car accidents by definition are dangerous and people WILL get hurt in them. best bet for safety? buy a new car and ditch these 15 yr old tin cans hehe drive safe on the street w/ your FC and be smart @ the track in terms of not going beyond your limits. i'm not advocating one vs. another but car accidents are going to hurt people. safe smart drivers is the best defense!!

RarestRX

Yo,

Prove that I will get crushed in a rollover with properly installed Schroth belts. Show me your crash test data supporting that. What are your credentials? Do you have a engineering degree? Are you a doctor?

I'm sorry, but I have more faith in a professional company who's reputation is based on safety and has been selling these belts for almost 50 years than what a layman "thinks" will happen in a theoretical rollover situation.

I just don't buy it...but feel free to post any newspaper articles, photos, or obituaries of anyone who has been killed in a rollover accident while wearing Schroth harnessbelts on the street. Until then, I'm still wearin' my Schroth's.

Rx-7Blazin brings up another good point, why get rid of a proven product that increases safety because it "might" cause injury in one of the rarest accidents out there?

That's like saying you're better off with your airplane's seat cushion as opposed to a true life preserver...even though:

The life preserver is easier to stay in.
Provides more support under your arms.
And in the majority of situations you'll find yourself in...better than the seat cushion...

...except when you are hit with a 50' Tsunami and turned upside...where you "might" drown.

Again, should you get rid of a proven safety system, or warn people away from it since it "might" fail in a freak accident?

I'm still not sold.

Kevin
1989 GTUs "Being the resident Forum cynic since 2000."

Rx-7Blazin

^^nicely sayd^^
sure driving smart will save lives but you cant make everyone drive smart, makin that statement totaly bogus. you can be sitting there doing nothing and still get rammed by some idiot who doesnt know how to drive you never know when your gonna get in a wreak its not always your faul if you get in a wreak. sometimes there is nothing you can do but sit there and watch whats about to happen. i would rather feel safe with a harness knowing that the majority of whats going to happen to you you will have a better chance of not injuring yourself. ill consider not buying a harness if i am driving an suv cuz then i can worry about rolling over. come on we drive sports cars they have a low roll over rate. and yes you can still roll one going off an incline on the side of the road but most of the time your car is just gonna slide and not roll over

Barwick

RarestRX, do you think I just formulated these opinions on my own? Scorororoioiuth or whatever belts are just another belt. They're nothing super special, they're 4-point belts. If you've got two harnesses going over your shoulders (one on each side) the forces that would normally push you sideways in a rollover will not be able to push you sideways, and the roof if it collapses will hit your head and probably hurt your neck and spine, maybe just killing you outright.

Yes there are exceptions, no I'm not going to search the internet to find someone who died from having harnesses instead of a regular belt without a rollcage. You seem hellbent on debating the fact that you are *unsafe* in a rollover while wearing harnesses without a rollcage. This fact is not debatable, it's been shown by multiple people who've lived as a result of wearing a regular seatbelt instead of harnesses. Numerous race car drivers and race groups say the same thing. It's not up for debate, if you want to do it, I really don't care, but don't go telling some young kid that it's safe because your scoririhafdiutqwertyourth belts are some sort of super belt, because they'll do the same thing in a rollover.

Freaky Monkey007

RarestRX - I would check ur belt instructions again.. If ur harness is installed the way it shows in that picture your shoulders and spine would be crushed.. They arent susposted to be mounted greater than like a 30* angle i believe.


Alright... If you have a roll cage/roll bar and a harness i believe there is no more risk than a regular oem belt and the things around the car. There is always a certain risk you must accept every time you go out on the road.. Now why you are really concerned about a 7 rolling i really dont know. The chances of that happening are about the same as you gettin struck by lightning. There are always exceptions to everything. Nothing works perfectly and nothing ever will. You put a cage and a harness in your car you accept w/e happens to you b/c of the mods. you have done.

On a side note though.. Barwick, I dont see where anyone here has said anything about a harness w/o a cage/bar.. So if someone comes on here and thinks its alright to run a harness w/o either then no one here is at fault for making them think that it is alright.

CrispyRX7

iTrader: (139)

Freaky,
First item: 45deg is a recommended angle. Got my data from the instructions listed on the Simpson website.

Second item: I've personally seen 4 rolled over FDs. two from the track and 2 from the street. And from speeds as low as 30mph. It doesn't take much to flip a car if it hits a curb sideways. Almost as if it happens in slow motion. Even in a car with a CofG as low as an FD.

Third item: As for using a harness without a roll bar/cage check some of the previous posts. In fact the original post from barwick is citing exactly this.

For Barwick: let the ignorant remain ignorant. Some people will never be convinced. Some people to this day don't even wear the OE seatbelts because they believe if they drive off a bridge they will drown because they will be unable to release the belts in time. The same agument in principle.

Regards,
Crispy

Rx-7Blazin

NO ONE IS SAYING ITS SAFER IN A ROLL OVER TO HAVE A HARNESS WITHOUT A ROLL CAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we are saying that harnesses can give you a better chance of not being hurt or killed in the majority of accedents. do you get what im saying or no?? I never personaly sayd that the percentage of you being hurt in a roll over with a harness was less, not once yall are not understanding what people are trying to say.