Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on street
07-07-03, 04:20 PM
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Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on street
Mods, I would appreciate it if you made this sticky, we get a lot of questions on here about "how to install harnesses on my street car" or "how to install without a rollcage". Here's the gist:
4-point harnesses, 5-point harnesses, racing harnesses, or other non-stock type seatbelts are made to hold a driver in place during extreme driving situations as exist on the race track or autocross course, so that he doesn't have to use his strength to keep himself from sliding around, and can instead concentrate on driving.
They are also made to keep the driver safe in the event of an accident in a vehicle that is equipped with a rollcage. The driver's torso is kept mostly in one place by the harnesses (they do stretch a little bit normally and during an accident). This attempts to keep the drivers (helmet-clad) head from banging too hard against the "not-going-to-deflect-much-when-hit-by-a-head" rollcage. It also performs a number of other safety duties as well.
As far as safety is concerned, rollcages are made mostly for one thing, and that is, keeping the person inside the vehicle from being crushed. In racing vehicles, they stiffen up the chassis, improving handling, yadda, yadda.. that's not the point of this.. We're talking about safety here. When a vehicle gets in an accident, the rollcage (which is usually bolted or welded to the floor of the vehicle in some manner, will do its best to absorb some of the energy and prevent the foreign object (another race car, tire wall, whatever) from entering the vehicle and harming the person inside. It sometimes does a good job of this, but it doesn't offer as much safety as you would think. However, when a vehicle rolls, rollcages (if properly designed and installed) SHOULD prevent the vehicle's roof and other parts from collapsing in and crushing the occupant(s). This is where 5-point harnesses step in, and prevent the person from flying around and hitting random parts of the vehicle as the vehicle goes from shiny-side-up, to shiny-side-down, to shiny-side-sideways, to other random configurations of the "shiny side" (otherwise known as the "top" of the vehicle).
Street cars are a whole other story. When street cars get in accidents, there is not a rollcage to protect the occupants from being crushed inside. This is where the stock seatbelts shine. Since there is no hard metal rollcage to contact (usually a few inches from the drivers head), the passenger can move a little bit more inside the cabin. In event of a rollover, stock seatbelts allow the passenger(s) to slide sideways and "lower their profile" so that the collapsing roof doesn't squish them. If a person were to have 5-point harnesses (or their equivalent) in the vehicle, the harness would hold their torso up so that only their head could move (and in a very limited manner). When the roof comes collapsing down, the occupant(s) torsos are held stiffly upright, and the roof causes either a broken neck, crushed vertebrae, snapped nerves, broken back, paralyzation, or any other range of rather nasty things we don't want to happen to us.
As for rollcages, even HEAVILY padded rollcages are much more dangerous to occupants that aren't wearing helmets (aka on the street) than anything in the vehicle normally. It is strongly recommended that you not have a rollcage installed in a street vehicle unless you plan on driving around with a helmet all day long.
So in short, don't put 5-point harnesses or a rollcage in anything other than a race car, unless you intend on wearing a helmet all over the place, having a full rollcage installed with harnesses properly mounted to the cage, and a seat that is properly mounted as well. Anything less and you're asking for trouble.
Oh and here's my disclaimer for the politically correct, out to get something-for-nothing losers.. I take no responsibility for what is said here. If you get hurt, don't come yelling at me. I'm no expert, and you can't come sue me because your uncle's brother's cousin's former wife's daughter's neighbor's second-cousin's friend got a boo-boo from something I may have said. k?
4-point harnesses, 5-point harnesses, racing harnesses, or other non-stock type seatbelts are made to hold a driver in place during extreme driving situations as exist on the race track or autocross course, so that he doesn't have to use his strength to keep himself from sliding around, and can instead concentrate on driving.
They are also made to keep the driver safe in the event of an accident in a vehicle that is equipped with a rollcage. The driver's torso is kept mostly in one place by the harnesses (they do stretch a little bit normally and during an accident). This attempts to keep the drivers (helmet-clad) head from banging too hard against the "not-going-to-deflect-much-when-hit-by-a-head" rollcage. It also performs a number of other safety duties as well.
As far as safety is concerned, rollcages are made mostly for one thing, and that is, keeping the person inside the vehicle from being crushed. In racing vehicles, they stiffen up the chassis, improving handling, yadda, yadda.. that's not the point of this.. We're talking about safety here. When a vehicle gets in an accident, the rollcage (which is usually bolted or welded to the floor of the vehicle in some manner, will do its best to absorb some of the energy and prevent the foreign object (another race car, tire wall, whatever) from entering the vehicle and harming the person inside. It sometimes does a good job of this, but it doesn't offer as much safety as you would think. However, when a vehicle rolls, rollcages (if properly designed and installed) SHOULD prevent the vehicle's roof and other parts from collapsing in and crushing the occupant(s). This is where 5-point harnesses step in, and prevent the person from flying around and hitting random parts of the vehicle as the vehicle goes from shiny-side-up, to shiny-side-down, to shiny-side-sideways, to other random configurations of the "shiny side" (otherwise known as the "top" of the vehicle).
Street cars are a whole other story. When street cars get in accidents, there is not a rollcage to protect the occupants from being crushed inside. This is where the stock seatbelts shine. Since there is no hard metal rollcage to contact (usually a few inches from the drivers head), the passenger can move a little bit more inside the cabin. In event of a rollover, stock seatbelts allow the passenger(s) to slide sideways and "lower their profile" so that the collapsing roof doesn't squish them. If a person were to have 5-point harnesses (or their equivalent) in the vehicle, the harness would hold their torso up so that only their head could move (and in a very limited manner). When the roof comes collapsing down, the occupant(s) torsos are held stiffly upright, and the roof causes either a broken neck, crushed vertebrae, snapped nerves, broken back, paralyzation, or any other range of rather nasty things we don't want to happen to us.
As for rollcages, even HEAVILY padded rollcages are much more dangerous to occupants that aren't wearing helmets (aka on the street) than anything in the vehicle normally. It is strongly recommended that you not have a rollcage installed in a street vehicle unless you plan on driving around with a helmet all day long.
So in short, don't put 5-point harnesses or a rollcage in anything other than a race car, unless you intend on wearing a helmet all over the place, having a full rollcage installed with harnesses properly mounted to the cage, and a seat that is properly mounted as well. Anything less and you're asking for trouble.
Oh and here's my disclaimer for the politically correct, out to get something-for-nothing losers.. I take no responsibility for what is said here. If you get hurt, don't come yelling at me. I'm no expert, and you can't come sue me because your uncle's brother's cousin's former wife's daughter's neighbor's second-cousin's friend got a boo-boo from something I may have said. k?
07-07-03, 05:27 PM
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Yo,
Barwick, I've been wearing the Schroth Rallye 4 harnesses in my daily driven Scirocco for approximately 7 years now.
I bought them for my autocrossing and open track days. As the SUV boom took off...I started wearing the harnesses full time to protect my 1900lb Scirocco (and myself!) against vehicles weighing twice to three times as much.
I also have doubts about the safety of my now 22 year old seats belts in my car. I've gone to the dealer and they don't have replacements any more. More than likely, these will tear in a serious accident.
I would rather put my life in newer belts, with more attachment points. Here is some interesting reading concerning Schroth harnessbelts:
http://www.autotech.com/schroth.htm
I just wanted to provide the other side of the argument...those German boys over at Schroth seem to know what they're talking about.
Here is a pic of the Schroth's in action:
You can see the red Schroth pad on the passenger's right shoulder. We are both wearing the belts. The passenger was Nick Triantos, the 1997-98 GTI Cup champion. He had no problem strapping the belts on...even though a Toyota MR2 had gotten 8 and 8A all wrong and had rolled almost in front of us.
I would recommend the Schroths...and the Schroths only...to anyone who wants a 4 point harness for the street.
Kevin
1989 GTUs "The Mistress"
1981 Scirocco "The Wife"
Barwick, I've been wearing the Schroth Rallye 4 harnesses in my daily driven Scirocco for approximately 7 years now.
I bought them for my autocrossing and open track days. As the SUV boom took off...I started wearing the harnesses full time to protect my 1900lb Scirocco (and myself!) against vehicles weighing twice to three times as much.
I also have doubts about the safety of my now 22 year old seats belts in my car. I've gone to the dealer and they don't have replacements any more. More than likely, these will tear in a serious accident.
I would rather put my life in newer belts, with more attachment points. Here is some interesting reading concerning Schroth harnessbelts:
http://www.autotech.com/schroth.htm
I just wanted to provide the other side of the argument...those German boys over at Schroth seem to know what they're talking about.
Here is a pic of the Schroth's in action:
You can see the red Schroth pad on the passenger's right shoulder. We are both wearing the belts. The passenger was Nick Triantos, the 1997-98 GTI Cup champion. He had no problem strapping the belts on...even though a Toyota MR2 had gotten 8 and 8A all wrong and had rolled almost in front of us.
I would recommend the Schroths...and the Schroths only...to anyone who wants a 4 point harness for the street.
Kevin
1989 GTUs "The Mistress"
1981 Scirocco "The Wife"
07-08-03, 08:52 AM
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RarestRX, that's a good point. What do you do in a rollover accident though? They don't mention that on the webpage. Of course 5-point or other harnesses are going to hold you still better than the stock seatbelts, I already said that. The problem lies if the car rolls without a rollcage. You're in much more danger then.
07-08-03, 09:57 AM
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Good Post Barwick. I think he's talkign about a roll cage as opposed to a roll bar. A cage will have a bar ubove you on the sides and front and that is where you would most likely hit your head on. A simple roll bar behind the driver would be out of the way of the occupants head unless they were not buckled in and happened to go backwards above and behind the seat but would still offer some degree of stiffness and protection in the case of a rollover. So I don't see a problem with a bolt/weld in roll bar like you see here for the FC.
Last edited by West TX RX-7; 07-08-03 at 10:01 AM.
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07-08-03, 10:53 AM
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Re: Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on stre
Originally posted by Barwick
In event of a rollover, stock seatbelts allow the passenger(s) to slide sideways and "lower their profile" so that the collapsing roof doesn't squish them.
In event of a rollover, stock seatbelts allow the passenger(s) to slide sideways and "lower their profile" so that the collapsing roof doesn't squish them.
07-08-03, 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by West TX RX-7
Good Post Barwick. I think he's talkign about a roll cage as opposed to a roll bar. A cage will have a bar ubove you on the sides and front and that is where you would most likely hit your head on. A simple roll bar behind the driver would be out of the way of the occupants head unless they were not buckled in and happened to go backwards above and behind the seat but would still offer some degree of stiffness and protection in the case of a rollover. So I don't see a problem with a bolt/weld in roll bar like you see here for the FC.
Good Post Barwick. I think he's talkign about a roll cage as opposed to a roll bar. A cage will have a bar ubove you on the sides and front and that is where you would most likely hit your head on. A simple roll bar behind the driver would be out of the way of the occupants head unless they were not buckled in and happened to go backwards above and behind the seat but would still offer some degree of stiffness and protection in the case of a rollover. So I don't see a problem with a bolt/weld in roll bar like you see here for the FC.
07-08-03, 01:05 PM
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excellent post...i have corbeau forza's and their street 4 point harnesses in my FC yet I only use them for auto X, the rare track day or (admittedly) pulling up in a car show or club meet. I very rarely use them on the street as they are just a pain to take on and off (loosen, fit, tighten etc...). also, you should note that it is much much safer to use EXISTING bolt holes on the frame when installing these harnesses. they are likely much stronger than anything you will drill & bolt in yourself. my shoulder straps extend into the hatch and bolt into 2 beefy 12 mm holes w/ thick stainless bolts/washers. u wouldn't want to get into an accident and have the belts rip out of their mounting points so I recommend these (our head mechanic explained this to me) as points to mount 4 pt. harnesses. I have pics if anyone is confused...as for the lap belts I used the stock locations and new, longer stronger bolts/washers and kept the stock belts intact.
07-08-03, 01:08 PM
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Re: Re: Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on
Originally posted by 3isacharm
while i agree with this, it seems to be very theoretical. it seems that the forces put on the passenger/driver's bodies would be too strong to allow them to move in the direction opposite the force, and into the lower profile position. i would imagine it's also quite difficult to stay in that position while being bounced around and smacking the ground over and over again. anyone else get what i'm saying?
while i agree with this, it seems to be very theoretical. it seems that the forces put on the passenger/driver's bodies would be too strong to allow them to move in the direction opposite the force, and into the lower profile position. i would imagine it's also quite difficult to stay in that position while being bounced around and smacking the ground over and over again. anyone else get what i'm saying?
Originally posted by Snufelupogus
So... rollbar w/ regular or 4/5 point belts on the street is okie dokie then?
So... rollbar w/ regular or 4/5 point belts on the street is okie dokie then?
07-08-03, 01:15 PM
#12
Barwick: Nice post. Thanks for the effort.
I have always been a strong proponent of NOT using aftermarket harnesses on the street for all the reasons you noted. In addition a rollcaged vehicle should NOT be street driven unless you plan on wearing a helment. A bare head impacting a roll bar tube, even when padded, is going to do serious damage. Roll bars are typically ok so long as they are well behind the drivers headrest. But even then it is a calculated risk if you choose to drive a car with a roll bar on the street. My street driven FD does have a roll bar FWIW and it is padded.
RarestRX: I'd like to point out that your concern is valid but the implementation is NOT. SImply stating you ahve been using harnesses for 7 years as basis for stating it is ok is NOT. Ever been in an accident with the harnesses? If not you have no data to support the claim that what you or others are doing is a good thing. The issue of OE belt availability aside swapping one bad belt for another is not a good idea.
In general one reason for DOT not allowing aftermarket belts/harnesses is not in the belts themselves but in how the belts are attached. Anchor points, inadequately used brackets/washers/whatever, or even inappropriately sized material or material choice for that matter will simply mean that in a collision the belts will hold and the anchor will fail. Net result - injured occupant.
But going back to the original intent of Barwick post about not using harnesses on the street or for those that run them without a roll bar or cage I submit the following picture. I know the passenger personally. And although this happened at a track this could very easily happen anywhere and on any street. As the passenger my friend said he would be dead if he had been wearing a harness. Wearing the OE 3 point belts his body slid down under the belts during the roof impact, he whacked his knees pretty good on the dash, but that was the only injury he sustained. His **helmeted** head was pinned between the seatback and crushed roof.
So a word to the wise:
1) on the street stick with the OE 3 points
and
2) don't use a caged vehicle on the street
FWIW
Regards,
Crispy
I have always been a strong proponent of NOT using aftermarket harnesses on the street for all the reasons you noted. In addition a rollcaged vehicle should NOT be street driven unless you plan on wearing a helment. A bare head impacting a roll bar tube, even when padded, is going to do serious damage. Roll bars are typically ok so long as they are well behind the drivers headrest. But even then it is a calculated risk if you choose to drive a car with a roll bar on the street. My street driven FD does have a roll bar FWIW and it is padded.
RarestRX: I'd like to point out that your concern is valid but the implementation is NOT. SImply stating you ahve been using harnesses for 7 years as basis for stating it is ok is NOT. Ever been in an accident with the harnesses? If not you have no data to support the claim that what you or others are doing is a good thing. The issue of OE belt availability aside swapping one bad belt for another is not a good idea.
In general one reason for DOT not allowing aftermarket belts/harnesses is not in the belts themselves but in how the belts are attached. Anchor points, inadequately used brackets/washers/whatever, or even inappropriately sized material or material choice for that matter will simply mean that in a collision the belts will hold and the anchor will fail. Net result - injured occupant.
But going back to the original intent of Barwick post about not using harnesses on the street or for those that run them without a roll bar or cage I submit the following picture. I know the passenger personally. And although this happened at a track this could very easily happen anywhere and on any street. As the passenger my friend said he would be dead if he had been wearing a harness. Wearing the OE 3 point belts his body slid down under the belts during the roof impact, he whacked his knees pretty good on the dash, but that was the only injury he sustained. His **helmeted** head was pinned between the seatback and crushed roof.
So a word to the wise:
1) on the street stick with the OE 3 points
and
2) don't use a caged vehicle on the street
FWIW
Regards,
Crispy
Last edited by CrispyRX7; 07-08-03 at 01:27 PM.
07-08-03, 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by jon88se
excellent post...i have corbeau forza's and their street 4 point harnesses in my FC yet I only use them for auto X, the rare track day or (admittedly) pulling up in a car show or club meet. I very rarely use them on the street as they are just a pain to take on and off (loosen, fit, tighten etc...). also, you should note that it is much much safer to use EXISTING bolt holes on the frame when installing these harnesses. they are likely much stronger than anything you will drill & bolt in yourself. my shoulder straps extend into the hatch and bolt into 2 beefy 12 mm holes w/ thick stainless bolts/washers. u wouldn't want to get into an accident and have the belts rip out of their mounting points so I recommend these (our head mechanic explained this to me) as points to mount 4 pt. harnesses. I have pics if anyone is confused...as for the lap belts I used the stock locations and new, longer stronger bolts/washers and kept the stock belts intact.
excellent post...i have corbeau forza's and their street 4 point harnesses in my FC yet I only use them for auto X, the rare track day or (admittedly) pulling up in a car show or club meet. I very rarely use them on the street as they are just a pain to take on and off (loosen, fit, tighten etc...). also, you should note that it is much much safer to use EXISTING bolt holes on the frame when installing these harnesses. they are likely much stronger than anything you will drill & bolt in yourself. my shoulder straps extend into the hatch and bolt into 2 beefy 12 mm holes w/ thick stainless bolts/washers. u wouldn't want to get into an accident and have the belts rip out of their mounting points so I recommend these (our head mechanic explained this to me) as points to mount 4 pt. harnesses. I have pics if anyone is confused...as for the lap belts I used the stock locations and new, longer stronger bolts/washers and kept the stock belts intact.
07-08-03, 01:50 PM
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well, without a cage you must mount any harness to some part of the car hehe i was trying to stress the point of using a factory bolt hole whenever possible bc they will be much stronger than anything yuo will drill into the car. the 2 holes I used are in the back of the hatch and are a part of the chassis. they aren't used (for whatever reason) but are DEEP and strong!! the lap belts use the stock locations w/ the harnesses w/ just longer bolts that came w/ the harness set. we tried mounting to the stock belt locations for the entire setup first but it looked wrong and the slack on the harness was WAY long. this looks much better and should be the safest way without a cage...these holes in back are drilled into the frame of the car it seems from the factory. thoughts? am i unsafe and i don't know it? hehe
07-08-03, 01:57 PM
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Yo,
Here are some clips from the link I provided:
Unlike typical racing belts sometimes installed in street cars, Schroth (pronounced "shrote") Sport Shoulder Harnesses are easy to use, yet provide increased safety and stability for street performance driving. Schroth belts utilize the highest quality webbing and state-of-the-art buckles and adjusters instead of the clumsy, outdated types commonly used on most racing belts. Schroth Harnessbelts are the only shoulder harnesses produced anywhere that have been certified to meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards performance requirements (FMVSS 209).
This means they are the only street-legal sport shoulder harnesses available. In addition, all Schroth shoulder harnessbelts are tested and approved by Germany's TUV and meet current European ECE 16 standards.
In order to fully appreciate the level of technology that Schroth harnessbelts have reached, one must first understand two key concepts:
Submarining A technical term used to describe the effect that occurs when an individual slides out from beneath their lap-belt in a head-on collision.
HIC Head Injury Criteria; defined by FMVSS. Calculated by applying an integral formula to the change in deceleration of the human head in a collision.
Submarining can occur with all types of safetybelts in a head-on collision, which accounts for about 60% of all accidents. The phenomena of submarining can actually be worsened when shoulder harnesses are used (the shoulder belt has a tendency to "pull up" on the lap-belt in a head-on).
With a typical poorly adjusted lap/shoulder belt configuration during impact, the head of the individual is subjected to high forward acceleration. This can result in severe head, brain, and spinal cord injuries. Because Submarining and high speed head acceleration have been determined to be mortally dangerous, Schroth has developed the asm system.
asm is an acronym derived from the initials of anti-submarining. The asm system developed by Schroth utilizes the inherent stretch characteristics of the belt material and incorporates a unique patented energy conversion device located on the inside shoulder belt. The danger of Submarining is minimized using the Schroth asm system.
Furthermore, the high load stresses experienced with seat belts in the head and neck area during a head-on collision (the HIC comparison values) are reduced up to 50%, to a biomechanically acceptable level.
This picture shows the correct installation and use of Schroth Harnessbelts in a Golf 2. This car body is one of Schroth's test chassis used to simulate head-on collisions at 50Km/h (31mph). Doors and other components not required for the evaluation have been removed. The Driver is wearing a Rallye 3. The passenger is wearing a Rallye 4.
SCHROTH Harnessbelts offer the highest quality. These belts, when installed and used according to the instructions attached, and for its expressed purpose, depending upon the type and severity of the accident, should reduce or prevent injury. Safety belts are tested using a dummy weighing 75kg in a simulated head-on collision at 50Km/h (31mph) impact speed against a fixed barrier, according to ECE-R 16.04 standard. US models are tested in accordance with US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS 209), except paragraph S4.6 (full-scale body crashes, described in US-FMVSS 208).
[End]
It appears to me that they've done crash tests to prove that the belts are safe to use in automobiles. It looks to me that they have hard data that proves that their belts do increase safety...especially in a head on collision.
Should I worry about rolling my car, having the roof collapsing and breaking my neck because I'm firmly held upright in my Schroths? I'm not going to. The ASM system actually lenghtens one of the shoulder belts after impact, so if I need to wiggle around I'm sure I'll be able to.
It's worth it to /me/ that I will have more protection in most street accidents: side swipe, rear end, head on, t-bone...vs. what I consider an extremely rare occurance: the roll over.
Kevin
1989 GTUs "Gonna wear 'em right now!"
Here are some clips from the link I provided:
Unlike typical racing belts sometimes installed in street cars, Schroth (pronounced "shrote") Sport Shoulder Harnesses are easy to use, yet provide increased safety and stability for street performance driving. Schroth belts utilize the highest quality webbing and state-of-the-art buckles and adjusters instead of the clumsy, outdated types commonly used on most racing belts. Schroth Harnessbelts are the only shoulder harnesses produced anywhere that have been certified to meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards performance requirements (FMVSS 209).
This means they are the only street-legal sport shoulder harnesses available. In addition, all Schroth shoulder harnessbelts are tested and approved by Germany's TUV and meet current European ECE 16 standards.
In order to fully appreciate the level of technology that Schroth harnessbelts have reached, one must first understand two key concepts:
Submarining A technical term used to describe the effect that occurs when an individual slides out from beneath their lap-belt in a head-on collision.
HIC Head Injury Criteria; defined by FMVSS. Calculated by applying an integral formula to the change in deceleration of the human head in a collision.
Submarining can occur with all types of safetybelts in a head-on collision, which accounts for about 60% of all accidents. The phenomena of submarining can actually be worsened when shoulder harnesses are used (the shoulder belt has a tendency to "pull up" on the lap-belt in a head-on).
With a typical poorly adjusted lap/shoulder belt configuration during impact, the head of the individual is subjected to high forward acceleration. This can result in severe head, brain, and spinal cord injuries. Because Submarining and high speed head acceleration have been determined to be mortally dangerous, Schroth has developed the asm system.
asm is an acronym derived from the initials of anti-submarining. The asm system developed by Schroth utilizes the inherent stretch characteristics of the belt material and incorporates a unique patented energy conversion device located on the inside shoulder belt. The danger of Submarining is minimized using the Schroth asm system.
Furthermore, the high load stresses experienced with seat belts in the head and neck area during a head-on collision (the HIC comparison values) are reduced up to 50%, to a biomechanically acceptable level.
This picture shows the correct installation and use of Schroth Harnessbelts in a Golf 2. This car body is one of Schroth's test chassis used to simulate head-on collisions at 50Km/h (31mph). Doors and other components not required for the evaluation have been removed. The Driver is wearing a Rallye 3. The passenger is wearing a Rallye 4.
SCHROTH Harnessbelts offer the highest quality. These belts, when installed and used according to the instructions attached, and for its expressed purpose, depending upon the type and severity of the accident, should reduce or prevent injury. Safety belts are tested using a dummy weighing 75kg in a simulated head-on collision at 50Km/h (31mph) impact speed against a fixed barrier, according to ECE-R 16.04 standard. US models are tested in accordance with US Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard (FMVSS 209), except paragraph S4.6 (full-scale body crashes, described in US-FMVSS 208).
[End]
It appears to me that they've done crash tests to prove that the belts are safe to use in automobiles. It looks to me that they have hard data that proves that their belts do increase safety...especially in a head on collision.
Should I worry about rolling my car, having the roof collapsing and breaking my neck because I'm firmly held upright in my Schroths? I'm not going to. The ASM system actually lenghtens one of the shoulder belts after impact, so if I need to wiggle around I'm sure I'll be able to.
It's worth it to /me/ that I will have more protection in most street accidents: side swipe, rear end, head on, t-bone...vs. what I consider an extremely rare occurance: the roll over.
Kevin
1989 GTUs "Gonna wear 'em right now!"
07-08-03, 02:05 PM
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well, u take a risk either way simply by driving 
i appreciate this thread though and the fact that the mods are keeping it here for a bit. I will attach some pics later so you can all see how I mounted the set and our SCCA friend can let us know what he thinks hehe on our Z we took the stock belts out completely but we do have a cage where the shoulder belts are mounted in back (rarely driven on the street...besides, it doesn't have a bumper support up front anymore thanks to the new (I.E. PITA) nissan motorsport nose. so the big FMIC and our thick thick TIG'd brackets to the frame are the new support hehe).
i wonder how the schroths differ from corbeau, sparco etc... in terms of actual DESIGN. generally the other harness makers don't have DOT approval bc it costs too much $$ great info kev!!
i appreciate this thread though and the fact that the mods are keeping it here for a bit. I will attach some pics later so you can all see how I mounted the set and our SCCA friend can let us know what he thinks hehe on our Z we took the stock belts out completely but we do have a cage where the shoulder belts are mounted in back (rarely driven on the street...besides, it doesn't have a bumper support up front anymore thanks to the new (I.E. PITA) nissan motorsport nose. so the big FMIC and our thick thick TIG'd brackets to the frame are the new support hehe).i wonder how the schroths differ from corbeau, sparco etc... in terms of actual DESIGN. generally the other harness makers don't have DOT approval bc it costs too much $$ great info kev!!
Last edited by jon88se; 07-08-03 at 02:07 PM.
07-08-03, 02:11 PM
#17
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At a PCA Event several years ago, the late model 911 in front of me overcompensated and rolled. The car did not have a Cage, but did have a Belt bar and aftermarket harnesses. The Instructor refused to go out on the track with the 4 point harnesses and INSISTED that the stock belts be worn. This simple act saved their lives/serious injury; due to the above stated reason of being able to slide in the seat when the roof caved in. John
07-08-03, 02:18 PM
#18
It appears to me that they've done crash tests to prove that the belts are safe to use in automobiles.
In what vehicle and how were those belts installed. I'd place good money your installation isn't the same.
It looks to me that they have hard data that proves that their belts do increase safety...especially in a head on collision.
Should I worry about rolling my car, having the roof collapsing and breaking my neck because I'm firmly held upright in my Schroths? I'm not going to. The ASM system actually lenghtens one of the shoulder belts after impact,
so if I need to wiggle around I'm sure I'll be able to.
so if I need to wiggle around I'm sure I'll be able to.
It's worth it to /me/ that I will have more protection in most street accidents: side swipe, rear end, head on, t-bone...vs. what I consider an extremely rare occurance: the roll over.
Regards,
Crispy
- stirring up trouble
07-08-03, 02:18 PM
#19
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my brother flipped/rolled his S2000 w/ the top down a couple years back. factory roll bar saved him...the car landed on it's roof and he crawled out sitting bloddied on the side of the road for 15 minutes before someone stopped. stock belts obviously...OEM does do the job I wonder if any of these harness makers have anything noted on their websites...
great thread, lets keep it coming!!
I wonder if any of these harness makers have anything noted on their websites...great thread, lets keep it coming!!
07-08-03, 02:24 PM
#20
I'll drive (be it rarely) with my cage on the street, and have both 5 point Sparco camlock harnesses and the original belts, each to do their own duty. The odds of me driving like a friggin' idiot to the point I flip my car are so remote that I could care less what anyone says I should do.
Schroth in my experience are not regarded as the finest quality available but are average. Often these are found in lapping club cars, not used in even moderate levels of professional motorsports.
1.Willans
2.TRW/Sabelt aka Sparco
3.MOMO
4.Simpson
5.Schroth
Schroths I believe are the only manufacturer of Harness and perhaps Willans that offer a D.O.T. approved set up. Of course, as mentioned before in many previous threads, do not use any type of harness under any conditions without rollover protection.
Quote:
"Any harnesses that you can use the stock location, you're encouraged to do so, BUT ideally you're supposed to mount (some or all? I'm not sure) of the harnesses to the rollcage, as well as your seat. Especially considering cars have broken apart before, and if you're attached to the rollcage, you're probably still somewhat safe, whereas if you're attached (by seat and harnesses) to part of the car, you're in trouble."
What? lol
Schroth in my experience are not regarded as the finest quality available but are average. Often these are found in lapping club cars, not used in even moderate levels of professional motorsports.
1.Willans
2.TRW/Sabelt aka Sparco
3.MOMO
4.Simpson
5.Schroth
Schroths I believe are the only manufacturer of Harness and perhaps Willans that offer a D.O.T. approved set up. Of course, as mentioned before in many previous threads, do not use any type of harness under any conditions without rollover protection.
Quote:
"Any harnesses that you can use the stock location, you're encouraged to do so, BUT ideally you're supposed to mount (some or all? I'm not sure) of the harnesses to the rollcage, as well as your seat. Especially considering cars have broken apart before, and if you're attached to the rollcage, you're probably still somewhat safe, whereas if you're attached (by seat and harnesses) to part of the car, you're in trouble."
What? lol
07-08-03, 02:31 PM
#21
White Comet
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Re: Don't use Racing harnesses without a rollcage, rollcage shouldn't be used on street
Originally posted by Barwick
So in short, don't put 5-point harnesses or a rollcage in anything other than a race car, unless you intend on wearing a helmet all over the place, having a full rollcage installed with harnesses properly mounted to the cage, and a seat that is properly mounted as well. Anything less and you're asking for trouble.
So in short, don't put 5-point harnesses or a rollcage in anything other than a race car, unless you intend on wearing a helmet all over the place, having a full rollcage installed with harnesses properly mounted to the cage, and a seat that is properly mounted as well. Anything less and you're asking for trouble.
Trying telling forum member Rutt this same thing. His roll cage pretty much saved his life when a drunk driver ran a red light and smashed his Integra from the drivers side door. Without the roll cage, more then likely he would have died or sustained heavy injuries.
07-08-03, 02:52 PM
#22
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Nismo, there are always exceptions to every rule. The odds are in your favor not wearing 5 points and rollcages on the street.
They are each intended as part of a SAFETY SYSTEM, which you are not wearing on the street. Take away a part of the system and it doesn't work as intended.
Rollcage + Properly mounted harness+ Helmet + padding and braces = safe RACING set-up
Rollcage + harness = incomplete system
http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/c...s/restinfo.asp
ANSWERS TO COMMON QUESTIONS ABOUT RESTRAINT SYSTEMS
Q: Why does't Simpson stock belts and restraint systems?
A: Every system is made when ordered to insure a current SFI date.
Q: How often should I reweb my belts or have my belts inspected?
A: Some Sanctioning Bodies require the belts or system be rewebbed two years after the date stamped on the SFI tag. However, a belt that is fraying, been exposed to harmful chemicals or the environment may need to be rewebbed sooner. Consult your Sanctioning Body for more information. In any event other than normal use, do not use the system again. Even if it appears OK. Return to Simpson for inspection. Simpson will inspect and reweb only Simpson Products.
Q: What is the advantage to "Pull-up" or "Pull-down" type belts?
A: Which one you use is a matter of personal preference and the equipment you're using. For example, does the belt go through the seat? Will you adjust it, or someone on the crew? What hardware works best with your set-up? Bolt-in, Clip-in, or Wrap-around? The "Pull-ups" are 62" in length. The "Pull-downs" are 52" in length.
Q: Are Simpson Restraint Systems DOT (Department of Transportation) approved?
A: No. Simpson Systems are SFI approved and dated.
They are each intended as part of a SAFETY SYSTEM, which you are not wearing on the street. Take away a part of the system and it doesn't work as intended.
Rollcage + Properly mounted harness+ Helmet + padding and braces = safe RACING set-up
Rollcage + harness = incomplete system
http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/c...s/restinfo.asp
ANSWERS TO COMMON QUESTIONS ABOUT RESTRAINT SYSTEMS
Q: Why does't Simpson stock belts and restraint systems?
A: Every system is made when ordered to insure a current SFI date.
Q: How often should I reweb my belts or have my belts inspected?
A: Some Sanctioning Bodies require the belts or system be rewebbed two years after the date stamped on the SFI tag. However, a belt that is fraying, been exposed to harmful chemicals or the environment may need to be rewebbed sooner. Consult your Sanctioning Body for more information. In any event other than normal use, do not use the system again. Even if it appears OK. Return to Simpson for inspection. Simpson will inspect and reweb only Simpson Products.
Q: What is the advantage to "Pull-up" or "Pull-down" type belts?
A: Which one you use is a matter of personal preference and the equipment you're using. For example, does the belt go through the seat? Will you adjust it, or someone on the crew? What hardware works best with your set-up? Bolt-in, Clip-in, or Wrap-around? The "Pull-ups" are 62" in length. The "Pull-downs" are 52" in length.
Q: Are Simpson Restraint Systems DOT (Department of Transportation) approved?
A: No. Simpson Systems are SFI approved and dated.
07-08-03, 02:56 PM
#23
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I actually just spoke with a rep from Corbeau who answered my e-mail very promptly...while their stuff is not DOT approved he cannot make bold statements like "4 pts are fine on the street" etc... but he did make some valid points. talk to someone about airbags and the conversation may sway...some people are for them, some are against them. speak to someone who haas lost a loved one of suffered serious injury from an airbag and they will be inclined not to advertise them (so to speak). He did tell me installation was the key...finding proper mounting points and using stock locations/holes in the chassis is the first step and unfortunately many times people prepare their installations in terms of what is fastest and easiest rather than what is safest and strongest. though not exactly pearls of wisdom I appreciate his response and customer service...he could have just as easily not responded at all or viewed our thread. though rollovers in these cars are rare (hey, they aren't SUV's) I still use my OEMs 95% of the time on the street just bc it's easier to use hehe a keen eye and defensive driving tactics are important too!!
07-08-03, 03:18 PM
#24
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Originally posted by Snufelupogus
So... rollbar w/ regular or 4/5 point belts on the street is okie dokie then?
So... rollbar w/ regular or 4/5 point belts on the street is okie dokie then?
07-08-03, 05:13 PM
#25
NA Powah, Every Hour!
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Yo,
Here is my setup with the Rallye 4's:
The anchor points for the back straps are my original OEM factory lap belt mounting points. Use the provided Grade 8 bolts and voila! Instant 4 point belts. The right side anchor point is also in the factory location, also with a Grade 8 bolts. The left anchor point is the OEM seatbelt mounting point at well.
Using factory chassis hardpoints with Grade 8 bolts...I feel very secure in Schroth's. Again, I only recommend Schroth's because they have been TUV approved and can be sold legally here. Any other Sabelt, TSW, Simpson, blah blah blah camlock system cannot be used on the street since they are strictly a race application...while the Schroth's are strictly a street application. Schroth makes racing harnesses as well, 6 point camlocks, etc. The amount of time, effort and research that they've done gives me absolute confidence in their product.
I stake my life on it.
Kevin
1989 GTUs "Not to mention the look on the cop's face when he pulls you over...and you've got them on. Priceless!"
Here is my setup with the Rallye 4's:
The anchor points for the back straps are my original OEM factory lap belt mounting points. Use the provided Grade 8 bolts and voila! Instant 4 point belts. The right side anchor point is also in the factory location, also with a Grade 8 bolts. The left anchor point is the OEM seatbelt mounting point at well.
Using factory chassis hardpoints with Grade 8 bolts...I feel very secure in Schroth's. Again, I only recommend Schroth's because they have been TUV approved and can be sold legally here. Any other Sabelt, TSW, Simpson, blah blah blah camlock system cannot be used on the street since they are strictly a race application...while the Schroth's are strictly a street application. Schroth makes racing harnesses as well, 6 point camlocks, etc. The amount of time, effort and research that they've done gives me absolute confidence in their product.
I stake my life on it.
Kevin
1989 GTUs "Not to mention the look on the cop's face when he pulls you over...and you've got them on. Priceless!"